Racism and discrimination in Munich

I also disagree slightly on that front. I'm offended with negro and nigger, both are in my opinion not acceptable

As BD said, it can be used in that manner but doesn't have to be.

Any word can be taken negatively if it's intended that way.

Not to mention the Eismohr im Hemd (ice-cream Moor - like the guys that ruled Spain until the 13th century -in a shirt), vanilla ice-cream covered with chocolate sauce and surrounded by whipped cream.

Understood. The topics viewed differently by all and there'll always be disagreements. When I first came here an aquaintance asked if I'd like to go to a fashings party. When I asked her what I could go as she said how about as a "neger". The worst is everyone in the room thought this was hilarious. Needless to say I didn't

a black mate described it as this...

calling me nicely neger, is like calling an obese person nicley fat, or someone who wheres glasses nicely foureyes. of course fat and foureyes can be taken negatively too if intended.

People use the word cunt and twat all the time on this forum. Where I come from both those words are highly offensive to women but on the forum they're meant in light hearted joking ways and therefore are not offensive. By integrating myself into the TT culture I learned that and understand it and am therefore not offended by it.

niether of which are racial nor physical stereotyping are they? cunt twat dick and prick, offensive yes but deeply and painfully hurtful no.

Great so if we just go with the "nicely" theory then it's ok when I hear people say "just popping to the chinkys". They didn't mean it that way...it's always been called that...so that makes it ok.

umm yes they are. In Canada they are used specifically to insult and degrade women. the word cunt is probably the most offensive insult you could use on a women, twat less so but still highly insulting.

Dick and prick aren't really considered insulting.

so you should be more aware of how offensive something is to someone and not allow such usage to go on... i know of english girls who hate whe word too, and from where i come from its probably the worst insult ever.

Well if I saw a desert that looked like a flower and was called a cunt kiss, I wouldn't be offended, I'd think it was kind of funny.

i agree, being unaware of how offensive a word is to someone else does not justify using that word. I also think that "Neger" is outdated and reeks of racism.

However, I also understand that many Germans are simply unware of the connotations of the word (like i said above, this does not justify its use) and it might take a while and some education to politely point this out.

Eleanor, I think yo are right about integrating yourself into the culture. I've learnt to understand the usage of some words but this doesn't mean i don't get upset when people make jokes. I still feel offended, especially if it's someone I know. AND they always say "come on it's not meant like that..."

Gemans have a habit of making jokes that would be considered racist or non-pc in countries like the US or Britain, whereas they are really not meant to be. They are blissfully unaware of how their comments are received. You can either accept that it is not meant in the way it can be percieved and ignore it or attempt to explain how it might make you feel.

That is very true. I was recently asked by a german couple (late 20s) where I came from. When I said the UK they said "directly"? (weird question!!). When I said "yes", they said "We didn't know there were so many colourful people in the UK"

Oh deary me...

How can you expect everyone to be aware of what any particular person finds offensive? As I said I hear words that are offensive to me all the time but I have since learned that they are not meant the way they are where I come from so don't get offended.

I can't expect you people from outside NA to know that.

you can't which is why i suggested either ignoring it and accepting that it might not be meant as interpreted or politely pointing out how and why it can be offensive.

Just heard from a Japanese business friend of mine that a few days ago there was a Korean female student who was beaten up seriously. Non-caucasian female please be extra caution when travelling alone late at nite as this has something to do with the HATE groups.

where? here in Munich?

no but i'd be wrong to tell you that your just "oversensitive" about it.

Yes here in Munich and of course it is not in the news. Again not all germans behave like that and to be honest when i saw the belgium news ( it concerns me as i will be shifting there) about a White guy student had killed a black woman and a turkish woman was luckly to have escape. Germany is still alot better!

JDinMunich: your experience with the german couple is very typical. i have a lot of asian friends from university and when i show(ed) pictures of them, my parents and "always lived in the bavarian country side" friends made big eyes. for them, i lived in a different world.

Nice. I love how blind to the rest of the world (and even to Europe!!) some Germans can be.

And furthermore, to the comment about a Korean girl getting beaten up, come ON. You don't really believe that, do you? If a Korean girl was beaten up seriously in Munich, it would be in the news. Fearmongering is just silly. For the most part, Germany is a safe place for foreigners, especially the (relatively) rich kind who are here by choice.

When I moved to Germany I must admit my main worry was if my son would get picked on because of his colour and I was quite surprised that he didn't considering there was only one other black kid in his school. I can honestly say that he never heard any comments regarding his colour at all, if any comments were made it was aimed at him being English.

Of course we would get stared at when out but that happened wether he was with me or not, always put that down to a German thing. The only thing I used to get asked was if he was adopted and if I felt the people asking at the time were just being twats I used to just mess about and either play ignorance and make out that I didn't see the difference or say that I ordered him off the internet and was unable to return him. That soon shut them up.

Context.


And yet when ER tells you that in her culture it's the most offensive thing you can call a woman, you defend it saying it's not meant that way here, and in this context. Make up your mind, Gideon.


Yes, it necessarily does mean that.

You're in Germany, people. It's a different culture. A lot of the shit that would be considered racist isn't in Germany because Germany doesn't have the same history. Melanin is a fairly new concept to the country. There was no tradition of slavery and emancipation. After WWI Germany was forced to surrender all her colonies so this place never had the later influx of Africans and Asians that England, France, Belgium and the Netherlands have had. Germans see the world differently.

I don't find blackface/minstrel terribly witty but Germans see it the way we see men putting on dresses and talking in high-pitched old lady voices funny. Welcome to a different culture. Get used to it. Things that are "offensive" elsewhere aren't so here, and vice-versa. Germans can't take off their clothes in a park in most other countries and they really don't understand the prudishness save for Islamic lands.


Of course. It's human nature to stare at anything different, unusual or out of place. That's an evolutionary defense mechanism. If you're black in Germany, you may not be a rarity but you're still not commonplace. That's just how it is. The easist way to deal with it is to smile and say hello (or "hallo") in a friendly manner. It addresses that same innate drive and shows that while you're differnt, you pose no threat.

woof.

they may not have had colonies but they invited "Gastarbeiter" into their country about the same time as the first big waves of immigrants came to the UK. Yes you are right that their culture and history is different but i do feel they are being a little slow in understanding how exactly some of the things that are entrenched in their behaviour effect others.

Or would you say that Asian immigrants to the UK have no right to complain about racial stereotyping? How about if we had had the same ice-creams and call them Pakikiss? Would that have been acceptable? After-all, our immigrants are also fairly new to the country (1950 and 60's onwards).

Racial stereotyping of black people in jokes and product names is not the only thing that you see here. Germany has had problems with racial stereotyping and racist behaviour to the Turkish and other immigrant "Gastarbeiter". The need to be more aware of what is acceptable behaviour in a modern society should not be new to them; Turkish people have lived here for 50 years now.

I do accept, though, that attitudes won't change unless a reasonable argument is put forward as why such behaviour is unacceptable. Just to say "I don't like it" isn't enough. If people can emphasise with the feelings of the person at the receiving end, they are more likely to change their behaviour of their own accord.

[color=gray]Topic closed by admin.

I know it's slightly belated as the topic is old and grey now (shit, being and ageist) But I always considered the word "Neger" to directly translate to the english equivalent "Negro"... I'm not sure if that term is politically correct or not, but then again who knows what is PC now, but it sure as shit isn't as offensive as Nigger.

Racism happens everywhere and it's due to ignorance and fear of differences. That is not something that can ever be changed. But in this PC world, we are told how people should behave towards us if we are different, and as soon as someone acts outside of the realm of this predetermined crap, it ruffles feathers.

Personally, I think the world would be a better place if EVERYONE, black, white, jewish, Hindi, or whatever you are, would learn to take responsibilities less light-heartedly and become responsible for their own actions, rather than just labelling someone because they don't act within the "norm" as dictated by the over-sensitive majority. Feel free to criticise, I have thick skin, which, along with common sense and logic, is tragically missing in todays society.

Funny SebAus how you set up the question that you don't know if Neger or in your English Translation "Negro" is or is not politically correct then tell every one "But it sure as shit isn't as offensive as Nigger". You can't have it both ways either you know the word and how it is used or you don't!!!

I suppose when the crazy German who I ran and caught after he punched a lady on the street was just being polite when I sat on him waiting for the police I suppose he was being nice when he was calling me "Neger" - but I did take offence. The 2nd time I didn't take offensive as it was in a set of Germans and I was warned previous that some Germans will use it as Synonymous with "Black". Just as in Northern England White and Black people will refer to Asian as "Paki" without meaning to be offence.

The one thing I find irritating on TT is the way debate get bogged down on the right definition of words...as though there is one dictionary in the sky that some how happens to be in someone's head and this time it is SebAus. The more intelligent, and I repeat intelligent people realise that words change their meaning over time and situation. Also that so-called bad or inappropriate words can be meant with no malicious... Please can you and other stop telling others that you know in every incident how a word is offensive or not...lets just leave that down to the context and intentions...and the individuals involved...

I'm rightwing (Libertarian - hence the empahsis on the individuals involved) but find the lazy rights ability to lapse every debate into "It's just crazy PC" as boring as the leftwing drivel...lazy labelling that doesn't in anyway add to a debate just shows how the reactionary brain of the poster/speaker works...

Negro Stanford

I also thought 'Neger' was terribly offensive when I first heard it here, but my German friends kept telling me, no, no, it's not like that. I still don't like to hear it, though.

Nigger is still a very dangerous word in the US, and when my German boyfriend moved to the US and went to college at an inner city school, he had to learn this, and fast. He heard other black people calling each other nigga and assumed he could do the same, although I quickly corrected him before he could make that mistake. He was so naive.

It sucks that a word can have so much power. I have two examples from my youth of the danger of the word nigger:

Mildly funny: I spent time in my teenage years hanging out with some black kids, and they freely called each other nigga, and I consciously knew I shouldn't do the same, but we were all a little *ahem* high one time at a party, and it just slipped out once, someone said something, and I said, 'Nigga, please!' (which if you are American, you will be able to imagine the inflection, which is not at all derogatory.) And the whole room just stopped, 20 or so black kids just turned to look at me and the mood got instantly electric. But luckily one of my good (black) friends diffused the situation with a joke (involving calling me a white honkey cracker ass bitch) and everyone just laughed and got on with it.

Deeply saddening: When I was 17, a white friend of mine (who had many black friends) and several of our friends (mixed group of blacks and whites) were walking near a ghetto area in Kansas City going to visit friends. My white friends thought he saw someone up the street who was a good friend of his, and he yelled out, 'Hey, nigga!' all friendly like. But the guy we saw wasn't his friend at all and spun around and shot my friend dead. Stupid, stupid, stupid, senseless. Racial tensions ran extremely high in Kansas City in the 80's and 90's, and there were lots of stupid shit like this happening all the time.

I dunno about racism in Munich, but I have lived in many heavily racist areas of the U.S. and Munich is nothing like that. When you get funny looks on the U-Bahn, that's annoying. When you live in fear for your life for being the wrong color in the wrong part of town, that's a big racist problem.

just stumbled on to this thread today...the very first post on this thread had the question, why do they switch to English when they talk to me? I was actually glad they do. yesterday, I lost my way around Kaiserplatz and wanted to get to Herzog strasse in a hurry. I spotted this old German gentleman and asked him in the only German I know, 'enshooldigenzie bitte, wo ist Herzog strasse'. Having looked at my brown Indian face, he responded in english immediately and showed me the way. I was glad he switched to English...maybe once I master german and get 'integrated' into german society, I would feel bad about the same situation? I would feel offended if he switched to English without even hearing me speak German? So, to me, the only difference between the two situations is what's going on in my mind on each occasion not in the old german's mind. So, who's racist, who's consciously thinking about color here?

Stanford, I mean no disrespect in the context of the word, but as an intelligent person, you know as well as I do that words in German diction can have two meanings, as do words in English. If you were to digest my first sentence thoroughly you would see that it is in my opinion. if the word "Neger" offends you, as in the case of "Negerkuss" the confectionary, then I apologise for the offence. So I am not sure whether the translation is correct, as I haven't been a resident in Germany for 20 years, but IN MY OPINION, Negro is not as offensive as nigger. That topic I will debate with you until the end of days.

Secondly, the person you chased down after he punched a lady and proceeded to call you a neger, did you honestly expect him to be entirely courteous to you? If he's in the frame of mind to perform such a lowly deed, you know that he is going to come at you with everything he has, even if it is just words.

For you to insinuate that my intelligence is sub par is ridiculous. Everyone has different opinions on words and their meanings. If I were to say the word cunt in front of friends after a few drinks in the right context I would probably get some laughs, if I were to say it to your grandmother, regardless of context, I would feel ashamed with myself. Please don't form decisions on people by one post, you may be labelled narrow minded.

As far as the racism issue goes, for 20 years living in Australia, if someone wanted to insult me they would call me a Nazi, and especially given the history with WW1 and WW2, it wasn't easy, but if you realise that these people are grasping at straws and have nothing else to insult you with other than something you can't change, how about putting a positive spin on things and thinking "thats all they have", rather than blow the racism horn. This is what I mean by political correctness turned bad. Everybody uses the excuse that they are being hard done by, and the bench mark for these situations keep falling.

Once again I don't mean any disrespect to any race, creed or religion, but every single person is targeted for one reason or another. There is no complete solution otherwise we'd all be living in the Garden of Eden

Did your read my post...I never said the word in itself offends me...
And what "NegerKussen" got to do with the discussion???



So you conveniently decide the the correct translation for Neger is Negro...If you were being more intelligent you would appreciate it is highly debateable to translation a word in it's social construct from one culture to another let alone ..between different groups ages, sexes, social class... I shalln't take your definition 100% even if you go and on about it all day and days...since I can get germans who believe that the translations for "Neger" is "Nigger" (my wife included). So as my previous post alluded to: I'm happy to judge the word in terms of it's context/intention which may include taking offence if I believe offence was intended!)..

Wiki discussion on the point

At the end of the day, I'm just someone who gets bored with the Left telling us when we should be offended and the Right telling us it all just PC and that you shouldn't be offended... It's not the job of Leftwing committee nor Rightwing committee to lay down the laws of offence...it's up to individuals using their intelligence to negotiate the complexities of social relations...

Stanford anti-PC and anti-anti-PC...

PS. So the nice Crazy german was calling me Negro...mmm...yeah right...he was trying to belittle me in the same way someone would spit out the word "Nigger"...and I took it that way... Fortunatley for him - he wasn't in the UK as I would have given him a few digs... By the way, the police just let him go...The girl was severly distressed and had to go to hospital...Na ja that's another debate...

Hi,ive been here in germany for 17years now and have been witness to many acts of racism on the german side.I put it down to an inferiority complex on their side.After getting guest workers to build the country back up again in the 50,s through to the 70,s ,they should be used to all races by now.And as far as i'm concerned,Stanford is perfectly right to get upset about someone calling him or anyone a "negro,nigger etc".And believe you me ,the germans do know what they,re saying.

I always figured that someone intelligent would at least have researched the subject or at least read through the thread before sprouting off... I guess thats another slightly left/right wing theory of mine, and doesn't stand true with a radical individualist like yourself. My bad.

Everything I have written on the case of the "Neger" translation isn't neceessarily acurate, that is why I never claimed this to be gospel. I said I always thought the translation was Negro. If you are going to argue about that with me, then you are wasting your time, everyone elses and some screen space for someone to write something meaningful.

On another subject, you can get your wife, George W Bush and the Pope to agree with you, it is my opinion and if you can't handle that and want to change it, then you have much bigger issues than racism on your hands, sport.

I'm not going to gratfiy you with any further responses,

Owain G has previously explained clearly with references how and why the term "Neger" does in fact have racist roots.
I saw the ice cream advert mentioned by the blogger the other week somewhere and was shocked at the casual racist sterotyping used in it.

The Germans do have a complex about post war immigration.
Germany needed the "Gastarbeiter" who had the cheek to stay on after their labour had been used!

Deep down they know the "Wirschaftswunder" wasn't just their own doing and constantly try and ignore that fact.

Until the politicians recognise that the 10% of the population that aren't German passport holders are not by their very existence a "problem"
but equal members of a society that can show its strength through diversity then everyday racism will continue to be "acceptable".

Bollox. It was entirely their doing (with help from the Marshall Plan). They just didn't have enough people to actually DO it. Compare and contrast with England which was still rationing some items almost a decade after the war.

"Guest workers" are, by definition, NOT equal members of society. They are people who are allowed to come into a foreign country and earn more than they would at home if they so choose. They aren't offered citizenship, only jobs. The US does the same thing with the H1-B visas.

woof.

Well, next time you call out a plumber to fix your shower, I do trust that as well as paying the charge, you will offer him permament lodging in your house.

Britain needed inputs of workers in the postwar period, particuarly in transport and health and they came from the Indian Sub-continenant, Africa and the Carribbean.
Yes, there is racism in the UK and perhaps thse migrant workers were expected to "go home" some day.
But they didn't and for the most part there is acceptance that they will not.

Germany needs to cross that rubicon.

I've heard that migrant workers pretty much had to take British citizenship, even if they were only originally planning to stay for a while.

I go back and forth if I think there is rascism in Germany. I get stares wherever I go in which case I just go " Damn I am looking good today".

It's not just about the citizenship though that is an important issue.

Even once / if people who don't look "German" get citizenship they still experience racism.

Go and listen to some German hiphop lyrics, it's littered with references to this issue.

I've stories of / witnessed "non Aryans" getting their IDs checked and the police being pissed off when they whipped out a German Ausweis and the cops couldn't hassle them. And of the comments alsng the line of "you may have got the Ausweis somehow but you don't belong here" etc etc.

Bollocks... there is as much racism (or not) in Germany, as there is in Britain... and as far as I remember correctly, there is a few districts in London (and all other major city as well), where it is quite obvious that the migrant workers there have the same problems as their counterparts in Germany.

@ HelterSkelter.

Of COURSE there are issues of racism in Britain.
And of COURSE there are deprived districts in many larger cities that have a very high % of non-white populations.

But I'd content that casual, in your face racism isn't as common as it is here.

I think the British have done a better job when it comes to dealing with racial sensitivities, so you probably get much less "in your face" racism, as opposed to many places on the continent. However on the other hand you have to look at where Britain was coming from historically. I think that it's similar to Germans being extremely sensitive about anything related to 1933-1945 - in contrast with the more blasé attitude often found outside Germany...

Interesting post JW, cheers. Germany is about the only country that never showed the comedy Allo Allo isn't it?

Psychology teaches us that you end up being interested in what you have to be interested in. If you are not then why do you bother reading such posts and waste your time complaining about them?

No, of course there is not. That's what the debate is about.

I totally agree.

Perhaps the fact that Munich is land locked, had little contact with outsiders it is taking longer for it to catch-up to being a truly multi-cultural international city. There also seems to be a level of immaturity among the adults in this town that is extremely puzzling(given the fact many are university graduates and as you say "travel extensively").

I think the level of immaturity amongst graduate students (particularly the male population of grad students) stems from the fact that they are 30 fucking years old and still live with their mothers- who do everything from making their breakfast to ironing their undies for them.

Always the mother's fault.