Validity of German permits in other EU countries

I've had this discussion with a few people in the pub but nobody seems to know for sure so I'll give it go publicly...

I have an unrestricted German work permit and therefore can work here forever if I really want to, however I am not an EU citizen. Does anyone know if I could work in say, the UK or France, with the German permit? The permit essentially amounts to permanant residency in Germany. I'm not too optimistic but I thought i'd ask anyway...

Residence permit maybe, work permit probably not. You say that your work permit permits you to reside permanently in Germany, so are you talking about the normal permanent residency that people can get here after so many years of the temporary ones?

My guess would be that it permits you to travel to, live in, and look for work in other EU countries, but once you find a job you would still have to get the relevant work permit for that particular job and country.

I remember going to ireland for new years and the only thing that let me in was my German aufenthaltstitel. I never even thought about needing a visa or anything like that, so I was quite lucky. Another guy was there with his new zealand passport but no eu permits of any kind so they didnt let him in, he had to go back (to england where he is staying and looking for work).

So back to your question, I guess the answer is, like the answer to a lot of permission related questions is, "it depends". It would depend on what sort of permission you have exactly, where you are from, what sort of work you wanna do etc.

I still dont even know what the dos and donts are as they apply to me here in germany regarding permissions etc.

Ketchup, I don't know the answer, but I would really really like to know the answer if you find out. I'm up for a permanent visa this summer.

What I have is the unrestricted residence permit (unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis) which also doubles as a permanant work permit. As an American, you can qualify after being here for 5 years and diligently paying your taxes, no criminal record, etc..

i would think the answer is no.

ask bruce if he is still around. he is from oz, has a permanent residence permit for DE and is moving to spain, but said that gives him no right to stay in spain without eventually having to get a visa.

that would be awesome if i got the permanent crap here and could move all over europe. don't believe it though.

Just a quick update here. I checked websites for UK immigration as well as for France. Neither make any mention that a permanant residence/work permit in a different EU country helps you in any way shape or form. The UK has a points system and the French system seems to be quite subjective. My suspicion is that your status in Germany might be taken into consideration but probably won't help much. Anyway, I remember talking to Bruce one night at GMs and he mentioned that he would have to go through the whole procedure again in Spain so it probably won't help. Pity though.

A residence and/or work permit, unrestricted or not is only valid in the country of issue. In the EU a permit from a member country gives you the right of unrestricted travel through the community, but no right to reside or work in any other than the issuing country. In general residency is assumed if you stay in a country more than 3 months (in some countries 6), and would require application for the necessary permits if you exceeded this or wanted to stay/work long term.

If you wished to move to work in another EU state they are not bound to issue a permit, but would look favourably on you if you already have one from another member state.

YL6

Good information YorkshireLad. Do you have somewhere I can see that written down, other than this forum?

'fraid not - I called the Auslanderamt and asked them, partly because the question was raised here, partly because of another American friend asking the same question...

YL6

Okay, thanks anyways for the info.

My Aufenhaltstitel is unbefristet. Give that, would I be able to move to and work in any EU country at any point in my life? I have no intentions of doing so, I'm just curious as to whether it's possible.

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at a guess within the Schenenenenegan Countries maybe. Otherwise no. UK might let you in cos you're a rocket scientist and like cricket.

You need to look up the EU directive for long term resident, 3rd country nationals. Most of the EU countries have signed up, which means 3rd country nationals who have permanent residency can transfer their residency and employment rights to other EU countries, I think that the UK and Denmark opted out though of this agreement.

Hi

I have looked into this subject at great length. The relevant EC law is the following which you can easily Google up.

COUNCIL DIRECTIVE 2003/109/EC
of 25 November 2003
concerning the status of third-country nationals who are long-term residents

The biggest problem is that the UK, Denmark and Ireland opted out of the law. That means that permanent residence in say Germany is not recognised in those countries and vice-versa . As an Australian, that is a real pain and in particular as a consultant it is a real hassle because it limits my working options within the EU. I took this up with the European Commission, DG Justice, Freedom and Security, Immigration and Asylum Unit (B2) but got told that it was for each country to decide and not the responsibility of the EC. It was a very polite "get lost" reply.

However I believe that it is a violation of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) which has precidence over EU or member state laws. I approached the EC with that notion and never got a reply. I think we have a genuine case of discrimination and arbitrary interference in people's lives. How can people belong to the EU community in all but citizenship (which is cannot be enforced by way of Article 15, UDHR), yet be arbitrarily denied the right to work in ALL member states because of nationality? I suspect that nobody has challenged this.

Just as a humorous anecdote, I talked with the UK Home Office about this as well and got a funny response. I was told that my best course of action to gain a work permit in the UK would be to find a nice English woman to marry. I asked if the official was joking and he replied that it was not uncommon and the easiest path - you figure...

Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Article 7.
All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Article 12.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

Article 13.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.

(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Article 15.
(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.

(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

source: http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

No it doesn't and it certainly didn't have one in 2004. It is now on the cards.

Whether or not denying us EU status with our permanent German visas is a violation of our universal human rights is a matter for lawyers to debate endlessly at €500.- an hour. I figure the countries are reserving this right so as not to have to take everyone else's asylum seekers.
An alternative might be to create an EU residence permit that might be applied for through Brussels. They could make it as difficult to qualify for as all member states wanted. Perhaps disqualifying anyone who's been on public assistence for instance.

Hi Kat

Matters like this are for people like me to raise so that the laywers have something to argue about. If we all remain silent then nothing will change.

The simple solution is have the UK, Ireland and Denmark comply with the EC law and forget it. Don't forget that my issue is with the free movement within the EU to take up employment. As a consultant I am disadvantaged because I am not an EU citizen.

A related issue is the outstanding inconsistency exposed in the front cover of my Australian passport are the following words:

"The Governor-General of the Commonwealth of Australia being the representative in Australia of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, requests all those whom it may concern to allow the bearer, an Australian Citizen, to pass freely without let or hindrance and to afford him or her every assistance and protection of which he or she may stand in need"

I belong to the so-called "Commonwealth" but when push comes to shove I am not recognised by its members e.g. can't work in the UK. According to my passport the sovereign head of my country is the Queen of England, which may be symbolic but nonetheless has some meaning.

As mentioned elsewhere in the forum, if I want to really join the EU (receiving all work related benefits) I have to give up my Australian citizenship to become a German (because German law which prohibits dual citizenship). In my opinion that whole story stinks and cannot be lawful.

I applied for a job position in the UK last month. I'm a non-EU citizen (Canadian). The employer emailed me, asking if I was moving to the UK and had the appropriate UK work permit. I obviously said no, and was immediately turned down. It didn't surprise me. However, I thought that since it is an international company, they would employ more international, including non-EU, employees. If I knew how much consideration another EU company put in the German permanent residency and work permit of a non-EU citizen applying for a job, it would be helpful.

They won't employ anyone from outside the EU unless another UKian or EUian (which is international in a way) can do the job.