Brits and Amis: -ise and -ize

I know the -ise/-ize discussion has happened on here before, but I can't seem to be able to find it. At any rate, I have a pretty specific question...

Ok, so I know that there are words that we all spell the same, whether it's -ise or -ize, but which ones are they? I remember reading once that 'realize' is the correct spelling, regardless of your country of origin, because it originated from the Italian 'realizzare'. Are there others? If so, what are they? Specifically, is it 'advertize' or 'advertise' or both? I just can't remember how I spell it anymore, as my poor little brain has been too far perverted by my hubby's speech.

'ere IPJ. Cut aat the bleedin' 'Brits' tag. It 'urts too much.

We speaks yer English language like wot the Queen does, dun't we? And like wot we woz learnt in skool.

Surely it's enough to have the spell-check thing running? I can't spell American consistently, but I just set the language in Word. Isn't that what everyone does? Just curious too.

@Nicky
You trust microsoft to do your spelling for you ?!?!?

I always thought -ise was UK and -ize was US. I would definitely spell realise with an s !!

Perhaps it a pronounciation thing - z is pronounced zee in the states and zed in the uk.
take the word zebra
the yankee's say zeeebra whereas the limeys say zebra (short sound like zed without the d!)
us paddies just say whatever we think the tourists want to hear so that they'll fork out as much cash as possible , begorah !

The American version lends itself to s substitution more easily I think so z's crop up all over the place. Thanks to microsoft we will all end up speakign american anyhow as even the british english verions contains many american spellings

And no bitchin' and whinin' about me using derogative terms as I abused everyone equally including my own country cos I believe we are all equal. so there !

It's advertise in American English.

Thanks, Saan.

@Nicky - I normally don't use Microsoft products.

@ meckle and ipj Ok, but what's the solution? I can't look up every single word in Webster. I'm sure I'd forget if I didn't have that thing running and write 'travelled' instead of 'traveled' for example. What do other people do? I'm interested.

American English always ends -ize whereas British English can use either -ize or -ise. The latter is certainly the more common in British English, but the former is not incorrect (it came from British English originally). Consistency is the key.

'Advertise' is spelt -ise everywhere, the -ize version is defunct.

The Microsoft Word spell checker *is*, in my opinion, good for making British/American spellings consistent.

There is no such thing as American English.

There is only English or American.

@Nicky - 'Travelled' is perfectly acceptable.

When I first got here, I wrote a report and then ran spell check on it. I made tons of mistakes and thought shit I can't spell anymore until it tried to change meter to metre. I then realized that the damn thing was running the British setting to spell check. That being said, if it weren't for spell check, I would be up a creek and I still have to reset the damn think to American English far too often.

Not if you are teaching English for a living..

Er, especially then.

Grinner, 'travelled' is a perfectly legitimate spelling. It's just as valid as saying 'obligated' instead of 'obliged' (ew...I hate the former).

Change the record.

Wikipedia - American English

whatever it's called i hate being told the people from the US do not speak English! grrrr...
and has anyone else every been told to change their spelling when using the British spelling for a paper at school (College/University)? When i returned from Belgium I was used to British spelling b/c there I had to use it or the teacher would knock points off my work. So then when in University a prof did the samething (didnt even realize i did spelled the word "incorrectly")

Wow, from Twirlie's link:


Majority rules: English is now known as USian, even for the 1/3 of you who speak an antiquated form of it, y'all biznatches.

Americans can start their claim to "majority rules" stuff once at least 10% of their population understands how to correctly use the word "already".

Correct
"Some suckling pig sir?"
"No thank you, I'm already full"

Pony of the Highest Order
"Oh my god, I was like uuh, and he was like uuh-uh and I was like no way, and he was like whatever, and I was like, oh god stop already"

It would also strengthen the position of the US claim that English is now more "theirs" if the population could perhaps develop a slightly more flavourful vocabulary than simply using "that rocks!" or "that sucks!" to express positive or negative opinion.

@don_rina-
what might you suggest we say?

when this debate is settled will;
the "ise" have it
or
the "ize" have it

sorry!

hehe who knows- just keep it how it is! keeps life a little more interesting and we all realize who's correct anyway...

One of my pet peeves. For British English either -ize or -ise is correct as long as it is used consistently throughout the document. I'm told that in the US -ize is the only correct one.

@IPJ: Exceptions? I tried to work this out before and got stuck. Something to do with making a noun into a verb, but I got no further.

You and Sin can both shut it. As far as any claim to the language, there are more native English speakers in Nigeria than there are in Britland. You lose.

You fail it even worse when you complain about American Valley-speak and ignore your rather large, chavtastic populace.

For the record, the Oxford University Press and Cambridge University Press both prefer "-ize", and even through he Times newspaper changed over from "-ize" to "-ise" in the mid-'80s, the Times Literary Supplement still uses "-ize". The ending "-ize" is historically correct (from the Greek verb ending -izo); words which vectored through French can be spelled with the "-ise".

Addendum (taken from the alt.usage.english FAQ):

woof.

@ipj -- plus anyone else that might be interested --

Here is a list - probably not exhaustive - of verbs that *should* [see endnote] have an -ISE ending on both sides of the Atlantic
(source: Concise Oxford Dictionary, personal compilation):

advertise
advise
apprise
arise
chastise
comprise
compromise
demise
despise
devise
disenfranchise
disfranchise (mainly US, means same as above)
disguise
enfranchise
excise
exercise
exorcise
improvise
incise
premise
prise (to force open) N.B. prize (to value highly)
promise
raise
revise
rise
supervise
surmise
surprise
televise

Note Concise Oxford dictionary (Tenth edition, Oxford University Press, 2001):
QUOTE: … the -ise ending is obligatory in certain cases: first, where it forms part of a larger word-element, such as -mise in compromise;
and second, in verbs corresponding to nouns with -s- in the stem, such as advertise and televise. UNQUOTE

Note 2 "Analyse", "catalyse" and "paralyse" also belong to this list, despite their slightly different ending, but in American English they've been spelt with a "z" for a number of years already.

Hope you find the above useful.
K.

Edit: I see BadDoggie has beaten me to it (note to self to add "circumcise" to the list - haven't had to use it in my work yet!)

nice post BadDoggie!

One thing I've noticed since hanging out with a lot of Commonwealth USian speakers is the difference between is and are. Example:

American USian:

1) The Killers are a good band.
2) Weezer is a good band.

Old USian (AKA Commonwealth English)

1) The Killers are a good band.
2) Weezer are a good band.

Please realize, of course, that I'm taking the piss (I'm just waiting for somebody to get stupid and take my "USian" comments literally).

yeah but iirc, the majority of all people who speak English, speak the British form. In fact, (i believe!) British English is the recognised standard for "international English" because the majority of people on the planet learn or speak it.

My question: WHO CARES?

Every blasted thread on TT seems to degenerate into some sort of a pissing match. Very boring and stupid. Spell whatever word you like however you would like to spell it, it doesn't matter! What matters is that you use the word in a sentence that makes sense and has some thought behind it.

Sigh.

STFU!

@ami- good point!

@drivinwest- isn't it grammatically correct to say IS a good band? considering it's a group so therefore seen as 1 collective unit? i think for The killers are a good band is b/c we automatically jump to it being plural due to the killerS. i could be completely wrong on this one, but thought since a band is seen as singular then it is 'is'

Native speakers, OG. No one gives a damn how Johnny Forinjer thinks we should spell English or we would've "fixed" the language centuries ago. "International English" is a pidgeon-- a construct and not a language proper -- which is used by arsewipes like me who have to deal with multiple spelling and gramatical conventions. There are few rules beyond "majority wins" for any part of it, so spellings are often British while syntax and usage is usually American, and so I write such sentences as, "I hate U2 because the band prosletyses at every concert."

mere: Collective nouns are normally treated as singular unless the form of the noun itself is plural, thus "The Beatles are good but The Who is better."

woof.

Well actually considering the popularity of American television and movies I'd hazard that American slang is becoming the norm.

I think The Killers are a fucking shite band.

The only thing worse than a pissing match on a threa... discussion... is someone bitching about that decline into a pissing match.

The only thing worse than that is some totally irrelevant comment or picture being dropped into the thre... discussion by someone like [Admin Edit: peronal attack removed].

Then there are the pedants, the absolute worst of the worst. EB hasn't seen fit to create a pedant's corner so all the whiny bastards can have their language usage circle jerk away from the rest of the forum, hence this thread here and my participation therein.

woof.

yes, agree about what you mean about international English. It tries to remain "neutral" but is predominantly British spelling.

Some interesting facts: the majority of English-speaking countries use Britsh English. The majority of International Organisations have set British English (split between those that consistantly use -ise and those that use -ize) as their standard (including the UN), primarily because the Oxford English Disctionary is their "bible" for spelling.

It's my bible, too. I blew a load when it became available on a CD around 1990. But realpolitik forces my hand ad what I write is tailored to those who will read it. Despite the appearances on this forum to the contrary, spelling is rather important and perceived "incorrect" usages are frowned upon despite my ability to show many sources which verify their correctness.

But, like, you know, there's like, only so far, I mean, I'll only like, you know, stoop so low and ummmm, then like, you know, I'm like, "But hey" and they're, you know, like, "Huh" and I'm like, "I can't like go lower" and they're like "Dude."

woof.

Random fact: One of the major contributors to the OED was an American surgeon who was locked up in Broadmoor Asylum after being declared a "homicidal lunatic".

Mr. Minor was, outside of the editor himself, the major contributor. The other major contributor was also a crazy American, but not certified nor locked up for murder.

(I really wasn't going to get into this convo - YL6 and I already cleared this up months ago )

Dear Mr. Bad Doggie

To think I respected you before this. Tsk tsk. Know what? You all can go jump, I've had it. What a bunch of self-absorbed, whining, pseudo-intellectual jackasses. I came to this site to try and meet some English speaking people as all my friends and acquaintances are German, but after being here for a while I've realised/realized that I hope I never have the misfortune to actually meet any of you in person. I've been insulted, berated and threatened and that's only in the 3-1/2 months I've been a member - and for the life of me I can't see where I've provoked anyone.

Apologies to the few nice people on this site. And there are only a few.

Don't bother with your snarky PMs as I'm not coming back. As far as I'm concerned all of you "cool" under 30s can "STFU".

I recently read a book titled something similar to, "The Madman and the Professor". It described the story of their relationship and about the founding of the OED. An incredible undertaking when you think of it. Each word has at least six citations of how it is used in context. Pretty impressive, before search engines began. And to define all English words, not just specialty words as the former dictionaries focused on before the OED.

not surprised you've been insulted going by your posts.

Yes - The professor and the madman. Great story... (need to get that one back from the loanee . thanks for the reminder)

Here it is The Professor and the Madman: A Tale of Murder, Insanity, and the Making of The Oxford English Dictionary

@ami58: Grow a spine. Everyone's been attacked at least once by the Bad Dog. Get over it, you know, like. Whatever.

Who's snarky here? Ifyou don't like the thread, stop reading it. There's a pedatic argument afoot and some general jocularity (like DW's sarcastic "STFU"). What's your problem with it? Why does it bother you? Semantic discussions are, by their very nature, pedantic and argumentative.


Not, I contend, as boring as someone meta-bitching.


Wrong. Spelling incorrectly, as I've pointed out on other threads, makes things more difficult for searches, for non-native speakers, and for native speakers who read quickly, stumble over something nonsensical and have to pause to try and figure out what the hell the author meant to write.


Tsk tsk yourself. Name-calling is pathetic. It's a pedantic dscussion/argument. What the hell do you think we should be writing? Flowery all-encompassing claptrap about "inclusiveness" and "acceptance" and "empowerment"? Fuck that.


So you've never actually met any of us, haven't made any attempt to do so in over three months before getting your knickers in a twist, and now that you feel insulted because someone (moi) said to quit bithing about the bitching in a bitch-fest thread, decide that all of us are worthless scum. And you even gave me credit for this epiphany you've had.


Threatened? Where? You complain about being insulted and berated and yet do it yourself? Tsk tsk. You complain about nattering arguments and yet corrected Yeti's spelling today, sniped at DW on Monday, and you not only corrected Keydeck last week, you also called him an asshole.

I'd expected you had a bit thicker skin.


I'm not under 30 so that doesn't apply to me, right?

[Edit: I'm feeling the love, STB.]

woof.

I'm just a jackass but I'm sure the others apply around the board too.


And I'm sure that Toytown's self-absorbed, whining, pseudo-intellectual jackass population breaths a collective sigh of relief.


Maybe if you weren't such a self-absorbed, whining, pseudo-intellectual jackass about it yourself then you'd get on better.


Oh hang on, I'm over 30 too so you probably didn't mean me.

Please don't go. We're all really, really sorry. Actually, if snarky means anything along the lines of sarky then feck it, you've got me too.

Good luck now, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Just read through the whole thread... FANTASTIC A great mix of well thought through argument combined with complete bollox...

BD.. Great post

ami, just sign up as another user and haunt TT to your hearts content like all the others.