Women earn less than men in Germany

I am new to Germany. I was having a discussion with some friends last week, and they commented that women make less money than men in Germany.

I thought to myself that it may be true statistically, if you looked at an average of all women's income vs. all men's income, that women may earn less (as they do in other countries) for all sorts of reasons, including part-time employment, childcare, etc.

But that wasn't the point my friend was trying to make. Their point was much stronger - that a woman, hired into the exact same position under the exact same terms as a man, will get paid a lower salary.

That boggles my mind. Is this true?

I work at a huge international company based here in Munich. I work alongside women who perform the exact same job as me, with the exact same hours, qualifications, schooling, and job description.

Are my female colleagues paid a lower salary than me just because they are women?

This, of course, would be illegal in the United States.

This leads me to a follow-up question: How is the gender-difference (or discrimination) atmosphere in Germany? Is subtle (or not-so-subtle) sexual harrassment tolerated in the workplace?

I'm curious what others have to say...

our company had an independent study done that came up with exactly that result...everyone was shocked for five minutes and nothing was done about it. it's quite normal and obviously fairly accepted in Germany. we were told we should be happy they had done the study in the first place, apparently that was considered very open of them...

Sounds fair though, its to make up for the months of salary you would have to pay them while they sit at home and have kids.

WHAT? I hope your just trying to wind her up..

You mean things like women have to work longer to get their pension as men. I am not sure the ages, but I remember reading that there is about a 3 year difference. Reason- women have babies and cannot work. Hello! This is also the country where there are no daycares (or very limited access) and kids only go half day to school. If you cannot afford a nanny or a babysitter, you cannot work then! So, men bring home the bacon. Maternity leaves should be shared like in the Northern countries, making then the contributions to taxes, healthcare and pensions the same then for both sexes.

there are similar studies/rumours/facts in other countries too. Certainly I know it is an issue in Sweden. the way I see it

1) its difficult to measure that people have exactly the same tasks and perform them just as well - its not unusual for people to be paid better if they do the task better - so of course that could end up with salaray differences

2) certainly in the private sector in Sweden, salaries are often negotiated on a personal basis each year. Being crap at salaray negotiations, I certainly never had the highest salary compared to people doing similar jobs. Its possible that women are more modest or not as good at salary negotiations in such situations - leading to a lower salary. I've great difficulty in believeing that there are many bosses in Germany, Sweden etc who deliberately give lower slaries to women because they are women. I don't dispute the statitics that show average salaries being lower for women though.

househusband?

It can and does happen.
Some say it is due to choice of degree or specialisation, others to negociation tactics, others due to institutional sexism. Lots of theories flying about on the subject.

would you give up your job so your wife can work? Most men won't!

it happens in other countries but Germany is particularly bad. the reasons for it are indeed complex and difficult to define. Rumour has it in our company that a man with children will always be paid more because they have a family to feed. Whether this is true is difficult to say but it could be a reason. men are also probably more demanding in salary negotiations. In my opinion, Germany is still a very chauvinistic society and women here lack the self-confidence to assert themselves the way they do in the US, UK or Scandinavia.

yep, like a shot. Already have done twice


you are most probably right. Not sure but I think 'most' women (or many) wouldn't want the guys to stop either.

get a new guy is the solution! (a non-insecure, non-chauvanistic type)

Kinder, Küche, Kirche

Would that be a company policy or a "subconscious" decision?

I'm not so sure about this, James Bond. Sadly, I think that not only is it NOT illegal in the US, it's also typical there, too.

But if you can point me toward a federal law that makes income discrimination illegal by gender, I'd be interested to see it.

For those of you who say that paying women LESS because they often stay home for a time to take care of infants and small children, this is counter-intuitive. It's not like they are paid by the company for staying home.

It's also a circular argument. We've agreed (I think) that one parent often has to stay home to take care of children because of social realities in Germany. Most of the time, families would choose the higher earner to continue working. So if women are usually the lower earners, they are also the ones who stay home. And if women are typically the ones who stay home, they should be earning less? On and on it goes ...

it is not a conscious company policy, it's just another example of the socialist mentality that all Germans buy into

Carm, you are wrong about this one. There is a so-called "Kindererziehungszeit" during which it is assumed by the Rentenversicherung that the person not working (can be woman or man) "hypothetically" earns an average salary, and gets pension entitlements for it. So if you are a high earner, you loose out somewhat, because you get "downgraded" to an average earner. But still, you do get pension entitlements for up to 3 years of staying home with the kids. Official link:

http://www.deutsche-rentenversicherung.de/...ungszeiten.html

Squirrel, I don't you understand the term Socialism and particularly not the term Democratic Socialism.

Well, you're forcing me to out myself as a lawyer. But Title VII of the U.S. Code certainly makes gender discrimination in the workplace illegal. More specifically, the Equal Pay Act, which was an amendment to the Fair Labor Standards Act, prohibits pay differences between male and female employees who perform substantially the same work.

Apparently, the EU has the same sort of legislation in place:

http://europa.eu.int/youreurope/nav/de/cit...html?print=true

Yup, James Bond, you're right. You wouldn't even have had to out yourself - I got curious and started looking around myself.

"Title VII prohibits discrimination due to race, color, religion, sex (gender), and national origin in hiring, employment (all terms, conditions and benefits), and termination. Prohibits discrimination due to pregnancy and requires that pregnancy be treated the same as any other non-work-related disability. Also bars retaliation against the person who made a complaint or assisted the complaining party."

Found it here: http://members.aol.com/mattlawfrm/fedlaw.htm

Two points:

There is a difference between having a law and being able to prove that your company is violating it. I think it's pretty well accepted in the US that income discrimination happens pretty commonly.

Title VII only applies to companies with more than 15 employees. So not every employee is covered.

It's OT, but having recently been pregnant, I also found this part pretty funny:

. . . pregnancy [must] be treated the same as any other non-work-related disability

Ha. Disability. Should have used that one to force people to give me their seat in the U-Bahn. Also, is it still "non-work-related" if your boss fathered the child? In the office?

maybe i should have written "misplaced sense of socialism", in any event they believe they are distributing the wealth by paying the father of the family more and therefore compensating him for the fact that he has to pay for his children, rather than a single person who only needs enough for him or herself.

There is also the fact that when it comes to making employees redundant, a company has to let go the singles (or those with no dependents) first. They have to pay settlements through the nose if they want to keep a single over a parent.

Children are a luxury, not a necessity. I don't see why other taxpayers and single people should pay for others people's luxuries.

I don't dispute that gender-related income differences happens in the United States. There has lately been a controversy in the U.S. with such practices occuring in service-oriented jobs such as Walmart.

But it generally does NOT occur at large companies and firms, especially at the professional level. For example, in virtually every U.S. law firm, associates are hired in "lock step" pay fashion - meaning every first year - male or female - gets the same salary coming out of law school.

At the companies and firms where I have worked in the U.S. - it would simply be unthinkable for a woman performing the same job as a man to get a lower salary (assuming same hours, qualifications, etc.).

My query is whether - in Germany - this practice occurs even at the corporate and professional level.

really, what a joke! I'm all for giving breaks, assistance and encouragement to people with kids, but thats a bit much! And I don't buy the stuff about people having kids for the greater good of the country in future generations. Its a personal thing.

whats the incentive to do the job better though - I thought bonuses and pay rises were pretty common in the US. Sounds though like as long as you don't perform so badly that you lose your job, you will get the same pay irrespective of performance, as long as you work the same hours and have similar qualifications from uni and high school

Oh, boy, you can get up with my daughter at 3 AM and see what a little luxury she is.

However, at least in Europe, I don't think kids can be considered luxuries anymore. They're economic necessities.

Not that I decided to have one for the sake of society. Certainly not German society. And certainly not to get any of your tax money, either, JE.

My understanding (from the people I know personally) is that professionals working in professional jobs (e.g. finance/legal/tax...) are paid on the same sort of basis regardless of gender. If it is easier for a man to be promoted or to be "reclassified" into a higher pay bracket is hard to say for sure, but it is not the general impression I am getting in my company (though obviously I don't know the salary of all my colleagues, so it's hard to say for sure).

That has nothing to do with male/female discrimination, though...

Well, let me tell you this, JB. My husband's German employment contract forbids him to discuss his salary with his colleagues. I think this is typical.

So how would anybody know? You'd break the terms of your contract to discuss your salary with co-workers, and then how could you very well complain about income discrepancy?

that's the thing, you don't know what the others earn so how can you tell if men get paid more than you do? unless the companies are audited by some independent authority there is nothing to be done about it surely?

as I said, i don't buy this argument about doing it for the greater good of society. People (I include myself) have kids generally because they want a little hobby/project and/or because they're scared of being a bit lonely in old age. Immigration can sort the econmic side of things out - there are plenty of people who'd be happy to come here and help out the economic situation.

I have two of my own aged 5 and 9 thanks.

I don't actually have any particular stand on tax breaks and kids. Or any other kind of breaks and kids.

I just wouldn't want anyone to think that's why I had one, to get financial or social benefits.

Bonuses and pay raises are common in the U.S. professional world. But in my experience, they are based on merit, hours worked, and business brought-in. A woman who does a better job, works more hours, or brings in more business than a man (in the same job) will get a better bonus.

My point is that, at least at the corporate/professional level in the U.S. - the base salary between men and women is the same. If a woman outperforms, then she will be promoted or get a bonus accordingly.

Do women choose to step down from the professional world earlier than men earlier (oftentimes due to childcare reasons)? Certainly. But that's a different issue altogether.

Right. I was just adding to the evidence of a "misplaced sense of socialism," cited by Squirrel in post #22.

how do women in the US know they are being discriminated against though? is transparency with regard to salary a lot more commonplace?

Nobody's disputed so far that women often make less than men in Germany for doing the same job.

I'm curious about JB's second question, the one about attitudes toward sexual harrassment in the office. Anybody got a comment on that?

Squirrel, I don't think a US employer can require a worker not to discuss salary with coworkers. In most places it wouldn't be considered in the best of taste, though.

put it this way, i've had things happen to me in the workplace that would have made me a rich woman in the US...

it probably is tolerated to an extent, unfortunately.

Some people (of both sexes) may not even consider some things that I class as harrassment as being harrassment (I guess they might think it was good old harmful flirting or joking etc). Sexual harrassment can also exist in both directions (Although I would guess its more common against women) as well as non-sexual harrassment.

Not limited to germany though

Yes. Definitely. Salary is much more transparent. At law firms and many companies, base salaries are widely published. Many firms and companies publish bonuses (or ranges based on merit ratings and hours). People compare notes. There are websites devoted to salary comparisons. It follows that in most cases, there are no prohibitions against discussing salaries.

What we do have in Germany is all sorts of magazines and websites that publish salary bands for different kinds of jobs and different kinds of seniority levels etc. (also broken down into base salary and variable components), so that people can get a reasonable idea as to how much they should or could be earning.

For example?

men oggling porn in front of me in the workplace, the whole department laughing while one guy makes a pass at me, colleagues asking me why i am not wearing a skirt like the day before...the list goes on

Why is the first example a case of sexual harrassment? The porn wasn't about you, was it?

i see you're German...that explains everything

That's a right isn't it??

It does? What exactly does it explain?