Help! Need advice in a "Strafverfahren"

I really need help here:
A friend of mine got a "Strafverfahren" (criminal procedure) and it will more than likely go to court.
He wants to go back to Ireland now, but the whole procedure will take months.
So, he needs advice from the consulat or something like that, so that they might take care of the whole case. The problem is, if he is not registered in Germany, he will be arrested.
He doesn't have much money anyway and the bit he has, he probably has to pay for the fine.
I don't have any experience with all that, so i need as much information as possible, so he will not get deeper in the shits.
Does the consulate provide lawyers or at least do they advise in justice things here in Germany? Who do i have to address to? i don't even know, if there is an Irish Consulate in Munich?!?

I am completely out of my depth here, so thanks for any kind of information!

http://www.europeanirish.com/Embassies/regions.htm

About half way down under 'Germany' is a list of those he might be able to help - your honourary consulate is probably no more use than a chocolate tea pot though, so phone the Irish consulate in Berlin and ask for their legal section - there should be somebody who can give basic advice, but i doubt very much that they will provide lawyers for free - I daresay they can perhaps give you a few names of people that might be able to help... Give 'em a call and take it from there. Normally leaving a country when criminal proceedings are being brought against you is in itself a crime, and in this case quite possibly more serious than the crime itself.

Hiya
first point of call would be
Irish Embassy website.
Remember: there is only an honorary consulate in Munich.
In any case, the Consulate is not able to provide funds nor loans nor give legal advice nor pay for lawyers for Irish citizens (they may be able to give some names though).
The Irish Department of Foreign Affairs website has more information about Consular assistance.
Not registered? You'd better tell us the whole story then.
Is he here on holiday or has he been here longer?
Katrina

Alright the story is that he got caught while being very drunk (2,8 per mill) sitting in a car, the glove compartment searched through and the fuse case in his hand.
He actually (and do believe him, although its nuts) just wanted to sleep there. There car was open, so he didn't break in.
After having sobered up he decided to get out of the country, quit his job and his flat and is now ready to go, but wants to get everything cleared up with the authorithies before.
I was in the hearing this morning myself and we talked to the police.
So, they said, if we give them a residential address in Ireland and if he'd pay a caution. he can leave the country. But all the information we got is pretty cloudy, so i try to get things clear, so he can decide what to do.
He has to get a job somewhere, either in Ireland or in Germany and he has to hurry up as he runs ut of money
I had to give my ID as well, and they will send post for him to my address. But I'd feel better if would not be involved.

Thanks for the information! I appreciate it!

Edit, No it was not his own car, he can't even drive and has not driving license.
He got charged attempted car theft, and the police and I believe that he didn't want to steal the car. Sadly it doesn't matter what the police or myself believes.

I take it this was not his car?

My advice would be not to help this punk escape the country or you could be a party to it. The guy just needs to sit tight, keep his nose clean, front up to court and reap his consequences like the burglar he is.

No sympathy at all for this chap. Cant do the time? Dont do the crime. Its interesting though, please keep us up to date on how everything procedes. Who knows, he could get deported and save money on his flight back home.

You haven't signed anything though, right?
Be extremely careful if he or the police try and get to you to sign something, particularly if the word "Haftung" is involved.
How old is he btw? If he is lucky and young enough he could get this process done through the youth courts (think they run up to almost 26 yrs old under certain circumstances) and could get off more leniently.
I don't know if you can get legal aid in Ireland nor if it would apply in this case.
You might want to go and see this lot as well. I don't know if they are good, I don't know if they can help BUT they might know someone who can...
Good luck
Katrina

He did sign the statement, but he can't remeber much anyway.
The police btw was very friendly and helpful.
No, i didn't sign anything, only that i am a "Bekannte des Beschuldigten" and translate and that if they have any questions, they could contact me as a translator.
I put clear that I got nothing to do with it.
He is 24 btw.

One thing I am curious about tho - the police don't think he wanted to steal the car, yet he was still charged with attempting to steal a car. Why did the old bill charge him for a crime they didn't think he was going to commit? Or is the system so different here in Germany that the prosecution service actually select the crime the accused is to be charged with? Strikes me as a bit odd... And he searched the glove box and was holding the fuse case??? That's a very strange thing to do indeed - something I would only do if I was trying to nick a car in fact...

At 24 I think he'll be too old and will go through adult courts unless there is a good reason.
The reason why I though of this was that when I lived in Erlangen I knew someone who got similarly drunk at a Bierfest and clunked two people over the head with a Steinkrug. Unfortunately the two people were off duty policemen...he was 20 and his process went through the youth courts which meant that with a fine the case was closed and he had no criminal record.
Here is a good overview (from the European Commission) in English of the German legal system.
Good luck
Katrina

is that not against some EU rule about free movement?

zees are ze roolz. ours is not to question them...

I understand mrs shipman also still believes the good doctor was innocent. it is such a classic: criminal finds gullible girl who covers for him and generally gets dragged into things she ought not to (do the names huntley and carr ring any bells?)

I hearby offer my heartfelt apologies to bubbles for being the cynic that I am. it's genetic

J

No. You can be required to hand your passport over. It depends, I believe, on the member state in question, but there are most definitely caveats to that.

Jordigo, please do not start your traditional free-trade song on this thread. Everyone knows all the words already. The woman needs advice not another one of your rants. Sorry if it sounds narky but I'm trying to help here so please open yet another thread on the subject if you want to and then anyone who wants to join in can do so.
Leaving the country without notification of whereabouts during a legal process is a criminal offence and has priority here over freedom of circulation, paying bail and giving notice of your whereabouts is not.

Right bubblylady, you might also want to go to this site and get the brochure "Guter Rat ist nicht teuer" about Prozesskostenhilfe (legal aid).
Katrina
PS Jimbo, I wouldn't be surprised if the whole case was based on "intent"...

Thought you were a lawyer Jimbo?

Inflexible Roman civil law system as used in europe:
No jury. Letter of the law is more important then intent. Judges intuition is also less important than letter of the law. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, but isnt a duck, its still in the duck category. So must be treated like a duck, even if everyone knows its not a duck.

Because this guy fits into the car stealing category he shall be treated as a car stealer.

Superior common law system as used by the english speaking world:
Juries. Intent of the law more important than letter. Judges and Juries are permitted to use intuition, and draw from previous cases, which lets the law naturally evolve as societies standards change.
Just because something walks and quacks like a duck, that fact that everyone knows its not duck permits the law to recognize that.

Also regardless of what system we are talking about, the police have no role to play in deciding guilt, their role is just to present an alleged crime to the court system to decide guilt.

I wanted to ask you this anyway Jimbo, what role does a (presumably) english-trained legal professional find for himself in a country like germany with a totally different legal system?

You thought right. I'm a Notary Public - I'm just about qualified under English law now, but I'm over here getting to grips with the German legal system, as well as the language. As you may or may not know, in Germany, criminal law is not something a notary ever deals with.

I do think your categorisation of the Roman legal systems is a little bit on the harsh side - juries, for example, most certainly do exist in Europe, although they are not relied upon so heavily. Interestingly enough tho, in the case at hand, I would say it would almost certainly go before a magistrate in the UK, which of course means it would not be tried by jury - and there is an increasing body of opinion that more and more cases should be tried that way in the UK to save time and money...

Your categorisation of common law as being a superior legal model is probably, in my view, not too far removed from the truth, but you must consider that sometimes a judge in the UK can still be constrained by statute - take for example the cases on intra-marital rape in the 80s. It took an eventual appeal to the House of Lords to change the law - until then, judges were bound to enforce statute.

I still wanna know why he had the fuse box out tho...

it was a legal point. as in "I believe they can't make you stay and if they try you can tell them to sod off coz it is against EU rules". for example: the ability to take away your passport is a moot point since you can go to any schengen country without it

PS: free the supermarkets. thank you K for reminding me I had not mentioned it for a while. meow right back at you

Being 2,8 Mill will actually count in his favour a bit if it goes to court as German courts seem to beleive that being drunk makes you less responsible for your actions. Also, that the car was unlocked.

Even if the cops don't beleive he really wanted to steal the car, having the fuses etc out (assuming it looked like he wanted to hot wire) means that it is the obvious thing to charge him with. Plus, from what I have seen in the papers etc it seems that the authorities here like to try and prosecute on the "severest" of crimes and then "back down" to something "lighter" when it comes to court.

Hope things work out ok for your mate.

Isn't it illegal to leave your car unlocked on the street in Germany? Heard that somewhere. Same way it is illegal to run out of gas on the Autobahn.

@MM
It is not illegal to leave your car open, but it means that iy for any caused damage or theft, if the committer cannot be found.
@grtho
I thought so as well, but they told us, that the law has changed. Actually now "Vollrausch" (being utterly drunk) is a crime itself, as you are responsible for ur body blablabla. I actually agree with that, it's kind of "drunk and disorderly"
So in that case the alcohol, doesn't make the whole case better.

I also hope it works out best, but a little "pushing" towords the right side, can't harm. As I said, the police was really very friendly and helpful. They will clear up the country-leaving thing with the attorney (Staatsanwalt) and will call me back.
They said as long as he gives a residential address and phone number in Ireland, he'll be fine, they guess. Well, I gonna have to wait, till they call me back.

Thanks for your support and special thanks to Katrina!
Wow, how do you know so much? Definitely Miss TT Information hands down!

Thanks for the thanks, it means a lot, you are very welcome.
Katrina

I'm no expert but I think the Civil law system as it is in Germany does have a lot going for it. The main distinction between the 2 systems being that the common law system is a 'case' based system, whereas the civil law system is statute based. It certainly simplifies the whole system and greatly speeds up the whole process. In common law, precedence is of high importance. The german system is not as open to interpretation and thus theoretically aids a more consistent application of the law.

Sounds like think this comes down to the split between police and prosecutor. In many legal systems police are supposed to gather the facts and a separate police lawyer decides what charges to put before a court. I have heard of instances where prosecutors and investigators disagreed on what to take to court. I even read some case law where the defence called the cops as an expert witness. Don't ask me to remember it tho or what the story in Germany is - I'm not a lawyer.

News update:

you wouldn't believe it. As dark as it looked like yesterday the better it looks today. The girl from the police who did the hearing has talked to the attorney. She called me, to tell me, there is no need to worry as the public prosecutor's dept has decided to close the proceedings.
He just needs to pay the administration expenses (like taking fingerprints, examinie his blood) which will add up to about 200-250 Euro. He also is free to to whatever he wants to do now, if he leaves Germany or stays.
They will send all post to me, so I can forward it to him.
Lucky bastard!

He really is a lucky bastard.

Having said that, I know the guy and he's not a criminal. He's just an idiot when he gets drunk. He's also had a bit of a rough time recently. No excuse of course, but I really can't imagine that he'd try to steal a car - especially because he really can't drive!!

I hope this scared a bit of sense into him though.

As a car owner I dont really feel like justice has been done. Anyone know who I can complain to to ensure people like this are kept off the streets? I bet if he was middle eastern he wouldnt have gotten off so lightly.

I feel I have to think twice about driving to munich now, I always thought it was so safe, but with drunken irish immigrants running around thinking its a great laugh to try and steal cars...

They should learn to handle their piss or go back home.

Complain to the hand boy

I hope you are using that term tongue in cheek sir. Otherwise you are indeed a racist and worthy of mine and all reasonable people's utmost scorn. I suggest you retract the statement immediately with a suitable apology. If you are too ignornant to know what it is that I am referring to then I draw your attention to your use of the phrase "I always thought it was so safe, but with drunken irish immigrants running around thinking its a great laugh to try and steal cars". Perhaps the guy was Irish, an immigrant and drunk. That's one person. Does that mean that all Irish people who get pissed are car thieves? Given how mouthy you were in the Racism Thread I suggest you think twice in future before hitting the 'Post' button.

I find myself having been remarkably restrained in this post. I hope you will do yourself a favour and reply appropriately.

@keydeck

Ok, nice use of quoting, and fair comment.

But if he'd have said the same thing about English immigrants, I'd probably have agreed with him.

I don't know about Ireland, but one of the things I dislike about England is that people have a remarkably high tolerance for drunken crime. My experience was that when you go to Sweden / Holland / Germany, you don't see it as much.

If they really thought he was a threat, then he would have been charged. Obviously, the police didn't think he was going to steal the car, so didn't lay any charges. It's not like they're lenient or forgiving when it comes to 'ze law'.


It always scares me when people get half the facts and then pronounce somebody guilty. Makes me think of the hysteria the tabloids and the so called 'current affairs' shows try to whip up.

You weren't actually at the scene and you don't know the full circumstances. The legal system here has dealt with it and that's the end of it. I don't know how or why you think you're more qualified than the authorities here.

Yeah, but that doesn't mean it would be OK to say that english immigrants in Munich are like that.

"try" and steal cars... but always caught out when they discover the steering wheel is "gone"

slán. (hic)

Hiya bubblylady, that's good news for your mate (the shock might get him to cut down on the booze too, I mean 2.8 Promille is heavy going...).
From bubblylady:
The other moral of this story is that should you not want people who are not you (regardless of where they come from or their alcoholic state) in your car then you should at least lock it.
Katrina

Im sure keydecks reply is just as tounge in cheek as my original post, but just case he really is annoyed I better respond.

Which term do you object to?

Also I dont consider baiting irish people by stereotyping them racist. The Irish are generally white (not that it matters, but you are the one that saw racism in my post), so I dont see how any comment about them is racist. Usually racism refers to attempts by the dominant white society to supress the rights of non-white minorities, or the linguistic and cultural characteristics picked up as a result of historical racist practices.

Dont see how it applies in this case.

This is really no more sinister (and certainly just as non-racist) than someone making a gag out of the old "whinging pom" stereotype, or the "serious german" stereotype. Just playful fun really, the only harm comes when people take things too seriously.

In fact, my post was less sinister. I dont think I was extending a stereotype at all. I am certainly not aware of any "drunken car-stealing irish" stereotype.

Anyway I actually thought we decided it was ok. See this rule in section 1.10 of the Usage Guidelines:


So if your trying to say i have broken some rule, then please rest assured. I have not.

2. A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=race
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=racism


Never been to Dublin then?

I didn't actually wanna start a discussion about justice in Germany and I also agree that he didn't deserve to get away with it.
Okay right, as I said, he was a friend of mine and regardless what would have been appropriate, if a friend of yours would be in the situation, wouldn't you help him out? If the police calls u at 5am to help them cause a friend of yours is in trouble, would u tell them to f*ck off? Well, I wouldn't. If you see a friend down and depressed would you not call everybody to make him happy? In that case i was talking to police officers and attorneys and accompanied him to the hearing etc. he surely would have suffered much more, if there wasn't a friend by his side. I do give help wherever I can. Thats what friends are for. And I guess, everybody would have helped a friend in this situation, wouldn't you?

OK. This was a great discussion on german justice before the racism discussion got involved.

(I actually think the plot line here was better than some of the neighbours conversation in misc)

Its always good to get an insight into how law and order works or doesnt work.

Hes a lucky boy. I know people who havent been so lucky and have ended up with criminal records for their silly pranks. One guy has had an issue with his employer becuase of his "fun"

Play safe, be aware of the consequences of whatever you do!

Ignorance aint no excuse

There endth the lecture

Poots

I'm with Bubblylady 100% here. At the end of the day, he got a good scare and a small fine, and he'll probably learn a bit from it. Justice was done, nobody's lives were ruined, end of.

@Kza - As for racism, I would call it xenophobia, and i think the comments were a bit xenophobic, and yes, I actually think Keydeck was being serious - were you???

@Malcolm

I'm just saying that culturally the English have a greater tendency to this sort of behaviour than the Germans.

Actually, Malcolm when we met up over Christmas, I remember ranting about this after spending a train journey with a bunch of lager louts and you agreed with me.

That doesn't mean that all English people are louts, or that all Swedes/Germans aren't.

So when I hear people complain about the behaviour of drunken English people, I tend to agree rather than complain about racism. Racism is bad term for this anyway - it's not as if the English are a race, if the term really means anything when applied to people. Being English is about a shared culture, and one that has an upside and a downside.

I was being quite serious, and you saw clearly the comment to which I was referring, so why are you asking.

The fact that the "drunken car-stealing irish", as you said, stereo-type does not exist would imply that it would be quite easy for your comments to be taken as racist in nature. If you posted some thread and usedn stereotypes such as drunken Irish, stern Germans, insular Americans, 'whinging Poms', sheep shagging New Zealanders and so on then it could be understood. You have to remember that on a forum people can only read the words so often things can be interpreted differently to the posters intentions. Just bear it in mind.

If you were just "baiting Irish people" as you said then well done, you succeeded in pissing at least one off.

Agreed Pootle.

However, if the system deems that you don't have a case to answer, then I get irritated by people who come across as vigilantes.

Either we have a justice system and we accept their rulings, or we regress to mob 'justice'.

Yes, I do agree with you. But then you were talking about the people in the UK, not the english people who live in Munich.


Why would you agree with it? I've never seen any english immigrants behaving like the lager louts that you see all the time in the UK. Tourists, maybe, but not the people who actually live here.

@Malc, I see what you mean - I've met a couple of tossers in ex pat bars but it's no where near as many as it is in the UK. Presumably people either adapt to the culture, leave or get locked up.

I wonder if the Germans see the English as more crime prone than themselves. Serious question actually. I remember talking about this with a Swedish friends, and they denied it, but some of them did leave town when there was an England away game at Rasunda stadium.

kza: FYI in the UK census (and in many forms where people are asked about their ethnic background) the Irish are considered a separate ethnic group

the list usually goes something like

white (british)
white (irish)
white (european)
other white background
black (african)
black (carribean)
other black background
etc

so...

yeah, that is true, i got that when i was registering for university in the u.k., i was quite surprised by it, then kinda chuffed in the way irish people are when they get singled out but then not so impressed when i was considered 'sufficiently british' not to qualify for accommodation offered to interenational students...

surely that was a misprint.

should it not be "milky white (Irish)" ??

Persil white, whiter than white Irish

Sorry Keydeck but I have to let the side down. I find myself too angry at that ignorant toe rag to actually keep my temper in check.
That was a slur on all things and people Irish and as Keydeck said, even if he were Irish then that is one person, not the country, not the general population and certainly not me.
So you racist waste of space kindly refrain from spreading your vermin filled stereo typical insults.
Definitely, I said definitely a case for: Ní Ceapim,
Have seriously toned this down before posting. Multiply the anger in this ten fold and then you get the picture of what'd I'd really like to write in response

Awwwhhh . . . poor didums. YOU don't feel like justice has been done?
Lets call the all the police and justice authorities who have worked on this,
and ask them revoke their desicions, just because you're a bit peeved.

What about the "German Cannibal" case? How about we get THAT turned over
for you too while we're at it?


I'd guess that if your ficticious middle eastern buddy had a friend like Bubbly
(who I have to take my hat off to, for being the friend of all friends, from
the account given,) that yes, he would also be let off.

Shame - we'll miss having you here.


Frankly -I don't really know what to say to that. I'd guess it was a windup, but there's no smiley!
Well - we're all europeans now, aren't we? So - I guess that he's more home than
you (if I read your profile correctly)- so - if you can't handle "Drunken Irish
Immigrants", why don't YOU go home?
Cheers, and have a pleasant St. Patrick's weekend.

It is a sad day when the only way someone can tell from what you type whether you are being serious or not is that you include a smiley at the end of it. Maybe Editor Bob should have a button at the bottom, right beside the "Add Reply" button that you can hit. There could be two in fact, one to press when you are being serious, which will then surround the message with a black border. The other is when you are taking the piss, which would have clowns rolling across the screen as you read it.



Interpret what you like from above. Or, if you don't know what I mean, why not send me a private message and ask me to clarify?

Just a couple more points to help you all cool down.

A sentence fragment such as: "but with drunken irish immigrants running around thinking its a great laugh to try and steal cars" does NOT in any way imply or even insinuate that ALL drunken irish immigrants are interested in stealing cars. It is analagous with this sentence:
"but with young drunk men running around thinking its a great laugh to try and steal cars". Is this a slur on all young men? No. Does it mean all young men steal cars? No.

It just means that in this particular case a young man was involved, and my sentence simply states a situation where there might be more than 1 of them. (After all, I have nothing against this specific young drunk man that tried to steal a car that I dont have against the entire class of young men who try and steal cars, thats why the sentence makes more sense when I use the plural form).

If the sentence read "with people running round stealing cars", would that in anyway be a slander against all people? Of course not.

So therefore, as my original sentence follows the same pattern as the 2 example sentences above, one may not infer that what I wrote is slander against all Irish people. It was simply a case of picking up the adjectives from the original description of the situation (I wasnt the first person to mention he was irish, or drunk remember), and repeating them.

Also, I, and what I write (along with much of whats written online) is far too unimportant to be taken as seriously as some people here seem to.

Also using a smily in a fun-making post is like laughing at your own joke. Baiting or stirring is only funny if its not too obvious, and a smily really does make it a bit too obvious. Usually the seasoned forum reader will recognize a troll and either move on, or permit themselves to be entertained by the less seasoned readers over-emotional replies.

And If I really have to mention it, I dont intend on looking into complaining about the case, and I do still feel safe driving to munich.

Me bollix. That's my response to your lesson in grammar, it's attempt at rapid back-pedalling and the rest of your posting.

However, I will take it that you did not intend any offence and that what you were actually trying to do was "Baiting or stirring" and acting, as you said, like a troll just to try to get a rise out of some people. It worked, well done. You can feel proud that your ruse worked.

I let the matter lie and shall comment no further, other than to say I still feel that you are out of order and an apology for any offence caused wouldn't go amiss. Remember that this is not a totally anonymous forum and that many people here know each other and socialise together.

See you later at the movie.