Salary expectations for an engineer in Germany

Today I was offered an engineering position with a semiconductor company in Dresden. I'm currently living & working in America and am trying to figure out if the $$ they're offering will be enough to live comfortably on for myself, my wife and our two school-age children. Trouble is, the more I research tax laws and cost of living, the more confused I get. I'm hoping you all can offer a little insight.

I'm currently making $85K in Denver, Colorado... and my german offer is as follows:

Base Salary: 60,000.00
Incentive Bonuses: 8, 350.00
(incentives are based on company & individual performance, so it's not a guarantee)
Grand Total Of: 68,350.00

I'm thinking it's best not to rely on the incentives, so that leave me with roughly 68K. From what I've read taxes cut out about 45% right off the top, is this true? If so, does that figure include insurance costs (health/car/whatever else I'm obligated to pay) too? What are averages for utilities & other expenses for a three bedroom flat? Any hidden fees/taxes I might not know about having never lived in germany?

I'm just wondering if I net... say, $2,500/month is that enough for a family of 4 to live comfortably on?

I've tried doing salary comparisons online and it seems the 68,300 is a little low compared to what I'm making here, so I'm just trying to decide what sort of counter-offer to make them.

Thanks for any insight you can offer.

If you are married with kids then your tax class 3 (38-40%)
Depending on which health care you decide to go with will also take
more out as Private insurance is more expensive.

The avg. utility cost for a 120m3 house/apt will run you about 250 Eur
a month but it depends on how the place is heated and other things..

If you execpt to take home 2500 Eur per month, and with 3 family members, then things might be a little tight and your going to have to
do some budget planning.

I haven't lived in Dresden, but being former east it should be a bit cheaper than Munich, which is one of the most expensive (if not the most) in germany.

Seeing as there is only 1 semiconductor company in Dresden, Ill only charge you 2 Opteron 285's for this info.

it also depends on what you call comfortable. 5 bedroom house or city apartment? two cars or public transportation? private schools or city schools? out to dinner twice a week or twice a month? Movies or rented DVDs?

My bet is on Infineon, and we don't make Opteron's. But it's just a dinky little facility, just one 200mm and one 300mm wafer fab...

60k would not be a lot for Munich. But from people I know living in Dresden, the rent is 40-50% of what it is in Munich. i.e. a nice 120m^2 place maybe 700 or 800 euro / month.

Auto insurance, taxes, food, tv / radio tax, EVERYTHING is more expensive here!

i had a job interview in dresden and they wanted to offer me 30% less than what i interviewed for in southwest germany, saying those were just the salaries there. granted, cost of living is much cheaper than in the "west".

Shepard, 68k EUR in Dresden is not the same as $85k in Denver. Ask for more or you will be taking a pay cut. In my opinion you will need at least 85k EUR to match your the lifestyle $85k in Denver affords.

there are a few things that might be different from what you're used to in the us.

do you get a company car? - that would help because usually gas costs are included, but you do still have to pay taxes on the car every month (anywhere from 350-1000 euro a month depending upon value of car)

will the co pay for your entire family's insurance? - health/life insurance for the rest of the family is not standard in Germany the way it is in the US. i'm not sure what a family policy would cost, but you should try to find out. the co will pay for half of your personal insurance.

will the co pay for your children to go to an english speaking school? - can be costly, but is usually included in contract.

can you back this up blundstoner? i don't recally denver being a cheap place to live and 85K EUR is nearly 100K US if not more!

what are you saying? children always have health insurance even if parents are unemployed. in this case, they are covered under their pa's insurance. wifey too. costs more, but that isn't unusual.
the 45% deducted from salary includes everything (except car insurance, but duh).

Nanya, Infineon, AMD are all in Dresden and that's just off the top of my head. There's probably a few smaller semiconductor companies.

68k might be barely OK in Dresden for a family of 4, but prices are rising there quickly too. It'll be tight though. You would save alot on rent (as elfenstar) said..but that's aboot it. Taxes for me are 39% off the top. You would have to pay health insurance (~150 per month), and car insurance (~100 per month) extra. It would be very difficult to make it with 2500€ net per month with a family of 4.

Thats why making a decision like this on financial grounds is not a good idea. Who cares how much it compares, cos life is going to be different anyway. 60k is fine, I suggest ignoring the money side of things and just come here if you want to, or dont if you dont want to.

Thanks for all the replies.. the general consensus seems to be it's a low offer. I've already sent a counter offer in asking for more on the base salary and I'll be calling them later to follow up. No company car that I'm aware of, but they have offered a few years for each of my daughters in the international school paid in full. I just want to make sure it's not overly tight when we get there.

One thing that sucked is that we'll have to pay to move our household items and they'll reimburse us. Does anyone have a rough idea of what it might cost to move a three bedroom townhouse worth of stuff from Colorado to Dresden?

Thanks again.

then, i think they're making you a good offer. there are teachers at the international schools here in munich who could make a better statement than i, but international schools are not cheap.

about the removal costs, maybe do a search. lots of peeps have come over with full households.

So every family in Dresden is either making more than 2500 net per month, or struggling? I think people have just forgotten how to live cheaply.

I just stated a fact. It would be difficult for a family of 4..period. Not sure what Rosenheim is like though?

i think we've discussed this before and were always in agreement. problem is, people want to bring their same lifestyle with them. i suppose if you've never lived abroad before, you don't know what to expect.

for the rent i pay for my 36 sqm here, i could have a decent 1 bedroom in austin (with kitchen!). i still think the 68k offer is plenty for a family of 4, but a house with a garden in front and back is not in the cards.

Probably closer to Munich than Dresden costwise. However once you get out of town a bit, say Amerang, Halfing, places inbetween that dont even have their own name, you can get a house with a back yard for the same as a medium sized apartment in Munich. Probably the same around Dresden too, the countryside is very overlooked I find.

SPIEGEL ONLINE has a little calculator for gross vs net pay in Germany here. It's in German, but enter your annual gross in the first field, select "Jahr" in the fourth field, set "Steuerklasse" to III (married/single earner), and select "Kinderfreibeträge" to "2" (# of kids), press "Berechnen" and you get the net salary of about EUR 3700 / mth (last line in the output). That's with two kids, and with a non-working spouse. It's EUR 3100 for singles.

Friend of mine is a computer science Ph.D. + 2 yrs experience and got a similar salary with a semiconductor company here in Munich. And a lawyer friend working in international tax law for a large bank said that 80k is a good salary there.

sorry, didn't know wife isn't considered family. i have never had to pay for my or my spouse's healthcare in the us. usually it is covered 100% in my contract. it was a surprise to me to have to pay for both insurance policies when we came over.


i didn't mention car insurance.

the original poster did though, which seems more relevant

@ boomtown - ah, makes more sense now. thanks.

The insurance coverage for the family only applies for state insurance, not private insurance. Sometimes it is cheaper to use state insurance for that reason and pay extra for anything you feel like (like me and dental work).

We (family of four) have lived in Munich on 2500 net monthly before and my hair isn't falling out - but we don't go out ot eat every night and my kids don't go to the international school. And the rents in Dresden are much lower. Get more if you can, but it is a doable offer - especially for the chance to live abroad for awhile - especially for the kids it is an invaluable experience. Heck - if they are young enough, send them to the local schools and they will be fluent before you know it.

My 2 cents from a carpet bagger who sold her car for a plane ticket and slept on floors wen I got here.

I just moved a 1-bedroom apartment full of furniture and personal effects (all went into a 20' container for shipping) from Houston to Munich, and also had to pay the cost upfront. It was approx. $7,000, which seemed extremely expensive to me, but they do have to deal with customs, etc. Luckily my company reimbursed me very quickly after my arrival, the only hold-up was getting a bank account open for the money to be deposited, so plan on doing that ASAP. Good luck!

I moved from downtown Denver to Munich just over a year ago, and the cost of living in Munich is definitely higher. I have no idea about Dresden, but if you live outside of the city, I would guess that housing costs would be cheaper than in the suburbs of Denver. Food in Germany is also cheaper, but besides that, everything else is more expensive. It seems like you have to pay for everything, such as the tax for just having a TV and radio, including car radio.
As someone else said, get a bank account and EC card (like a debit card) ASAP, because a lot of times you can only pay with EC card, but not with credit card.
Good luck.

That's right. I live with my family (3 pers.) in Munich (city) and easily manage to keep spendings below 1500 / month. It's very difficult to change one's spending habits once a person is used to spend a lot.

One thing that I cannot stress enough.

DO NOT under ANY circumstances hire MAYFLOWER to move you internationally. They were the most inept, bungling, evil bunch of stupid morons I have ever encountered, anywhere, anytime.

They showed up 2 DAYS LATE to pick up our stuff, despite hundreds (no exaggeration) of phone calls. The cleaners were at the house to clean an empty house which wasn't empty, and couldn't work. At 8:00 pm the day before our flight overseas, they finally show up after a series of threatening phone calls. We were insane with worry.

Despite having explicit contact information of the entire Austrian family we were staying with temporarily (our hosts AND their relatives) including phone numbers, addresses and reassurance that all could speak perfect English, it was only after WE called MAYFLOWER to find the status of our belongings that they told us that they needed more paperwork for our car which was being shipped, and our entire net worth was sitting on a dock in New York for TEN DAYS because they couldn't ship it!! They did not try to contact us at all during this time.

Finally after faxing the paperwork the container arrives in Germany 3 WEEKS LATE. Container arrives when I am on a business trip (of course), leaving the wife in a furniture-less house to take care of 3 small children, one of which has the flu and is puking in the backyard while the furniture movers are bringing the stuff in. Asshole German mover makes a snide remark about the kids and how wife should get a new hobby. Only after having a mind-flash of life in prison does my wife refrain from killing this bastard.

Other asshole German Mayflower contractor gets lost driving the car down from Hamburg and shows up TWO DAYS late.

Good luck. And make the company PAY FOR EVERYTHING up front! MAYFLOWER then sent the invoice to my company 6 MONTHS after the move. Company tried to reimburse me at the exchange rate at the time they received the invoice, which would have screwed me out of about 1000 D-Mark. I had to argue my case for weeks before they ponied up.

More stuff:

Telephone took 3 MONTHS to get.
Kitchen (you have to buy one yourself in many cases) arrived 8 weeks late and didn't fit right.
Car cost 1500 D-Mark to "convert" which was new headlights, and a red fog light. Dealer "threw away" the old headlamps.
etc. etc.

Don´t let ami58 put you off in the case you´re up for an adventure - because that is surely what it is to move abroad to a country where you might not speak the language!

There are certain things you have to think about and I´d strongly recommend that you have your firm pay for move and relocation services (i.e. assisting you in finding a home, bank accounts, residence permits, health insurances etc...)

Housing under 1000 Euro/month shouldn´t be a problem in Dresden. Just checked myself on a good site, www.immobilienscout24.de and found lots of nice houses in Dresden to rent for a very decent price! the former East Germany is much cheaper and so is going out for dinner there as well...

Your salary for eastern standards is not bad at all (you also pay less money because you have 2 children). Your company paying for your childrens schooling is excellent - here in Munich I believe it costs ca 10.000 Euros a year per child in such a school (depending on which age the child is)...

If the calculation someone did earlier is correct, that you´d get 3700 Euros/month after tax, you´ll be perfectly comfortable on that sum living in Dresden.

I did the opposite when I was a child - spent 3 years in the US. A great experience for my whole family, a bit of a culture shock for sure, but it is an experience that is well worth doing! Good luck!

PS. we do have cars here as well, so wouldn´t recommend importing your car to Germany - because that can truly be a hassle, there I´d agree with ami58 to 100%!

Dresden is much cheaper to live in than Munich. 60k is a good salary and you will pay less taxes for being in an East or "New" German State. You also have to include the fact that you will get 30 days PAID vacation which you can see as a none-monetary compensation!
Beware though... once you get used to the 6 weeks of vacation you will not want to go back.
Things can be more expensive in Germany but the infrastructure and quality of life are very high.

Also Dresden is a very cool city.

shepard, my husband and I also moved here to Munich from Colorado (Fort Collins), 5 years ago. Cost of living is much higher in Munich, as are taxes. It's possible some of this would be offset by lower out-of-pocket health care savings as well as lower food costs.

My husband, also an engineer working for a semiconductor company, tried to negotiate a salary similar to what he was making in the US, but was told they couldn't pay him a comparable salary, because that would put him way ahead of his immediate colleagues and would be more like what his would-be manager was making. In the end, we accepted quite a pay cut compared to the US salary, because we wanted the experience of living abroad. However, we are not badly off in comparison with our friends, also mostly engineer types, here in Munich.

We planned to live here maybe two or three years, and we've doubled that time with no current plans to go back, so we are quite happy here. However, we did make a financial sacrifice, which will probably be unavoidable for you if you are job-seeking in Germany for a job with a "German" contract (instead of an "ex-pat" contract, which is like getting combat pay for doing your same job.)

You're welcome to send me a PM if you want more specifics, or if your wife wants to chat with another "trailing spouse" from Colorado. Good luck making what is a big decision.

I know this thread is a little old but I justed wanted to add a few words of my experience.

I don't concurr with those that say except the wages based on the local standard of living only as in my case when I did that it meant that when I lived in frankfurt I was able to live in a nice area/flat and go out and eat once or twice a week but when it came to going back to the UK - I could't readily afford it. Even Manchester was expense on my german wages. And since I wanted to see my family it meant my REAL quality of life was not so great.

Since, I've begun to earn pounds and have been able to include in my quality of life frequent trips back to Manchester to see my family - which was important since my father fell ill. In the end, I'm so glad that I've started earning a UK wages again (despite continuing to live in germany) as my father subsequently died and I had to pay for a UK funeral which meant pounds not Euros.

So any foreigners considering a wage should always factor in the ability to travel home and the ability not to feel too poor in your own town - as what is quality of life if you can't see your own family and take them out for a meal with-out breaking your german bank!!!

the amounts given for taxes are wrong, my wife earns a very good wage and pays only 28% total including health insurance (1 dependant me). Based on 68.000 per year your take home would be around 4000 per month. You would also receive money for the kids.

The younger the kids the easier time they will have learning the language. Watched a show on a English couple that moved to Austria and threw (lit had to drag the boy in to class) the kids age 13 and 15 into school. Was a very tough adjustment but they did it, kids are fluent and parents still struggle.

Germans are very rules oriented and it can be annoying at times but I'd never move back.

Spend some time here, there are alot of cultural differences here and it helps if you aware of them.

correction, base salary is 60.000 so take home will be a bit lower, I don't like bonuses because they are not guaranteed, get a new boss or what ever and it disappears.

Is 2500 not tough to live on? Rent and costs run 1000 month car costs another 300 or more that leaves only 1000 and bit left for all the expenses of running a household. Just the cost of out fitting the kids for winter can cost a fortune even at Woolworths.

Dear All,
actually I have the same problem in understanding if the salary proposed to me is acceptable or not.
I'm Italian and I'm working as process engineer in semiconductor company.
I received a proposal for a job as Field Service Eng. always in semiconductor businness.
I have 13 years experience as equipment and process eng. and they offered me 47K gross salary/year.
They proposed me relocation in Hessen, near Frankfurt area with 3 months allowance for an house for a total of 900 E, no company car, no bonus except Chrismas bonus. I'm 33 years old.

Could someone help me to understand if this offer is acceptable for German standard or not?
Which is the typical salary level for a similar position in Germany.

Thanks

Ciao

Jeanluk

sounds like what my ex used to make as a civil engineer here in munich. doesn't sound too shabby.

I don't really know what an equipment and process eng is to be honest - but 13 years experience (I presume working experience i.e. not including university) is quite a lot. You'll certainly be fine and quite comfortable on 47K gross (whats that, maybe 2.4K per month net?). Its not an amazing salary (but its comfortably more than I earn!) but Hessen is perhaps considerably cheaper than Munich???

It would mean he graduated at 20 - not impossible, but not very likely. Would you like to set us straight on that point, Jeanluk (or is it Gianluca )?

good point. My brain didn't get that far

Yeas, Gian Luca...
Let me explain, I'm not graduated, I completed my 5 years diploma and then I started to work at 20.
I didn't have the opportunity to study at University.

Equipment engineer in semiconductor industry means to be responsible for servicing from the point of you of maintenance, machineries used to make semiconductors products (i.e. chips).
Process eng. means maintaining processes used on that equipments to make reliable products.
Let me add also I'm single.

You should get yourself connected to the TT webserver so you'll be "ahead of the rest".

well my statement still stands that you should be able to live comfortably on that salary, even if you won't be living like a king. If its reasonable for that exact line of work in Germany I really don't know. Depends on what job offers (if any) you have perhaps

he did not say that the 60K number (ignore bonuses) is in Euros - I assume since he is an engineer and wants to compare apples to apples that the number is in USD. At the momment 20% under Euros. Making his gross = about 48K. For east german living this should be about equal to a 2x higher wage in an expensive US (not sure about Denver). Some BIG BIG questions to ask are "will you retire in US? Then you should continue to contribute to an IRA according to a financial plan (NOT JUST WHAT YOU CAN AFFORD). Will your kids go to US university? Then you must contribute to a UNiversity tax shelter (US univ tuituition rise approx 6%/year). These are the BIG life questions - the more boring questions are also important like are you bringing cars (dont!!) and will your kids attend english school (about $1000/month) -- don be scared-off. ITs a great expereince to break out of the US mind-washing Matrix life!

I'm told that for starters it is around 50k if its in munich and somewhere between 40 and 50 k if the job is elsewhere. 60k is a very good income in my opinion.

Dear All

I am an Environmental Engineer from India with 4 years of work experince. I have been offered a salary of Euro 40,000/annum (before tax) by a company in Munich.

Would like to know if this salary is appropriate for my level of experience and education.

Regards

I'd say off the top of my head that sounds about right, neither hugely generous or far too tight. You can always ask for nice little extras like relocation payments, flat search agent to help you, hotel accommodation for 30-90 days while you get settled, help getting the visa, and so on.

BTW, I'm in Bangalore right now and I see a crying need for environmental engineers just here!

Hi,

I am in Dresden and i have found a really nice flat. But before i can rent it i need to know my exact Net Salary each month. All the calculators on the net i have used are way out the all differ by between 100 - 400 Euros.

Can anyone help me: I am single earn 60000Euros per year and wish to use public healthcare. How much more information do you wish to know.

Malikos

As a rough estimate, just assume that 50% of your gross salary is going to go on taxes and insurances.

So with an annual gross of €60k you're probably looking at a net monthly of around €2500.

I don't think many landlords will want an absolutely to-the-cent exact figure anyway, so a guestimate will most likely be fine.

As a single person 50% sounds about right, if you have dependants than its about 30 to 35 percent. Note that includes health care as well.

50% seems a lot was hoping that i would get at least maybe 2800Euros or something like that.
.

Still thinking whether to make the jump from the UK to Dresden, maybe its too late but i earn that salary
in pounds in the UK.

So it is almost 50%.

Sorry, me again.

If i don't pay any Church Tax how much Tax then

working on my previous salary, you should net at least 2800. it seems very complicated (and it is!) but i wasn't earning quite as much as 60k and took home over 2500. many people include their pension contribution and other things in their 'taxes'. i think i paid around 45% as a single man, no church tax, not including private pension scheme.