2 x €16 to validate that 'B' is 'B'

Our story begins sometime this summer, when the better half and I discovered that, although never to be found in any of the sites providing "information" (to laugh or to cry here?) about driving license regulations, our Israeli driving licenses (yes, I know, we're terrorists, let's get on with it) can be simply converted to German ones after being translated to German and a small fee paid. Wonderful, we said. No hassle with taking annoying driving courses, paying a minimum of €1.5K for each course, results sould come relatively fast and no chance of failure. German efficiency at it's best, thought we. Hip hip hurray.

So we happily go and get the documents translated. A plain old translator would of course not suffice, so we wen't on to find a "vereinigte" one, which has the magic stamp that fixes it all. Now, since finding a vereinigte translator that does Hebrew to German isn't the easiest thing in this troubled part of the world, we settled for translating the English part of the drivers license, which is valid in Germany as an international driving license, at least for people who are just visiting the country. We departed from some €15 for each, and happily marched to the KVR offices that deals with driving licenses.

We wait our turn, hand over the documents, the girl at the desk looks through them, and blankly points to the translation and tells us: "This is not a classification", showing us the classification part that says "B". "Whadaya mean?", say we, confounded and perplexed. "It means I don't know what this 'B' classification is in German classification terms". "And besides, there's no indication as to when the license was issued". Here my train of thoughts starts to go multi-threaded and overheated.

Granted, the Israeli authorities didn't put the date of issue on the international side. Stupidity? Probably. Is it necessary to have it on an international license? Probably not, because otherwise it wouldn't be accepted in other countries. But, on the other side of the license, there were a few dates written (actually, only the years): 1976, 2010, and 1994. Clearly, the first one can't be the date I issued it, as it corresponds suspiciously to the year I was born in. Against the second one there is that relatively strong evidence of linearity of time. Next to the last one there was one word in Hebrew which means "of the year", but Jeez, what could that be? I tried to explain, I tried to convince her that that is actually the date of issue, but the lady stood her ground. Nope. We have to go translate the whole Hebrew document from scratch. Shell out another 20€ for each license.

Then there was the classification issue. I try to explain to her that this is an international document, it can't mean anything else than "B", and being such a document, we assumed that it's translation would be sufficient. To this she answers that she doesn't know that for sure, and that (GRRRR...) the fact that we assumed something doesn't make it true. I try to explain to her that holding this document, I could drive around Germany during the first 6 months of my stay here. What if a policeman stopped me then? What, he couldn't know if I'm allowed to drive a car, a motorbike or a helicopter? To this she answers that he doesn't know either, he "would have had to believe whatever you say". "So can't you believe me now?", I ask? She issues a bland smile and says no. Then I think (I didn't actually say this out loud, I didn't want to insult her), isn't it her job, being a clerk sitting in a position to accept or reject driving license conversions from other countries, to know what kind of classification an international "B" is in Germany?

Nope. With a smile saying - I've seen 200 like you before, you stupid twirp, don't you ever learn, she kindly refers us to ADAC office nearby, to go and get the driving licenses' classification verified. Grumpy and feeling cheated, we pedal over to ADAC, wait again for our turn, and get the lady to classify our documents. "16 Euro for each, please", says the kind lady there.

And what did we find out? You guessed it. International "B" is also German "B". For two times sixteen bucks.

Long live beaurocracy.

Oh to B or not to B, what was the question?

This makes me cheerful. I'm off to the driving license place in around 6 hrs to convert my UK license into a german one... will report back later

P

20 minutes later and 35 euros lighter, they've taken my license away to get converted. 3-4 weeks they say.

Was actually shocked by the organisation there, only problem was being sent to the 3rd floor, see person, sent to the kasse (ground floor) and then back to the 3rd floor - and the lifts, forget it

P

thats not the same thing as being valid for conversion to a full German license though to be honest

Why did you convert Pootle?

I converted because I no longer had a UK address I wanted to use on my driving license. I intend to stay here for a while longer, so I opted to convert. Also means no annoying bit of paper that you gotta carry with you

Only disadvantage of changing the UK license to a DE license is you'll probably lose some classes.

Not that I'll ever need to drive a bus or a bus with a trailer, but I lost D1 and D1E when I changed mine.

Ha ha ha! They told us 4-5 weeks for our US ones and it took 8.5 weeks. Hopefully they are quicker with yours. Don't hold your breath though.

Well I feel for you Genie, but look at it on the bright side - you didn´t have to spend more! I went through a similar process, but ended up paying around 500€ for my German driv lic. (Had to take the exam).

Got mine in one day. They did call later demanding that I give up my stateside DL as they forgot to take it away from me. Of course, I still have my stateside DL.

Before I changed mine I wrote to the DVLA and told them I lost my License. They sent me a new one which I traded for the German one and I still have the original. Should I ever go back to UK, unlikely but you never know, I've got the proof that I had all the classes

I thought about doing that too, but I thought it might not be 100% legal so just took a photocopy of the UK one before I submitted it.

Not that bothered about losing the classes anyway. At least they let me keep C1, and on the german license the B, BE, M and L classes have no expiry date (they did on the UK licence).

LOL... thanks mate. I didn't mean do sound so whiny (reading again, though, I probably did...). Just wanted to share a prime piece of beaurocratic idiocy with you people. I mean, 32 Euros? Sometimes we shell out more on a drinking evening. Didn't get any beer at the ADAC, though. Pity.

Yes, the girl in the KVR was so kind as to share that information with us. This is not mentioned anywhere else though. My question is just this: Why? Why is it so important to know when the DL was issued? Who cares, as long as it's valid?

And another thing to top it off: wife went to the Hebrew translator this morning. According to him, it actually depends on the clerk/the clerk's mood/the clerk's physiological state (see: PNAS paper on this matter) whether the international translation is enough or not. Some let you get a way with it, some send you to get the Hebrew thing.

Go figure. Maybe we weren't nice enough.

the other advantage is that the police and other officials readily accept a german drivers licence as a proof of id. so your not burdened with the whole, carry your passport around shite.

Actually, they care alot and so do I and so should you. You wouldn't want "teenie A" or "non-driver adult B" to go and get a cheap easy DL somewhere and then come back and trade it in for a German one and then hit the autobahn doing 200kmh after only driving a week now would you? Many DL are exchangable, but only after 5 years of driving or so. If you don't take the German classes, then you need the experience and that is a good thing.

??? Wassat then?

Police - I think prefer the idea of confusing them with a UK licence, although round where I live I think the single copper covers 500sq kilometres on his donkey or something. I could drive pissed and naked around the town for weeks and never get stopped.

the newest UK licences are a credit card sized photocard thingy accompanyied by a big bit of paper (where a record of your points is stored). I don't carry the paper bit around although I take it with me when renting a car

I had the contrary experience with my German DL (first issued in 1985); the car rental place did not accept it as ID as I am not German; I had to go home and get my passport.

Car Rental people are hardly officials, officious maybe!

Matter of fact, he was really nice about it. Just a word to the Munich-wise, as you never know whom you might be up against.

The reason the date of issue is so important is that there is a "Probezeit" built into your licence over here.
If you commit an offence, such as breaking a traffic light or not coming to a stop at a stop sign, within the first two years of receiving your licence, then there are some pretty serious consequeneces. I don't know the full details, but it includes having to attend some sort of course called Aufbauseminar and passing some test, as well as getting points etc. If you commit two such offences during your Probezeit, you can lose your licence. If you fail the test you can also lose your licence.

If you commit a similar offence after the Probezeit, you just get a fine or a few points or whatever.

So if you're converting a foreign licence to a German one, and the foreign licence was issued less than two years ago, you will also be considered to be in the "Probezeit" on your German licence.

I converted my Irish licence a while back. I received my first licence in 1991. Irish licences expire after 10 years, so the licence I converted was issued in 2001. On my German licence, it says that the date of issue was 2005, but that I am entitled to drive class B vehicles since 2001. In my case it doesn't really matter, but had my second or third Irish licence been issued in 2004, I would have had to prove that I have actually had an Irish licence before this point in order to avoid the Probezeit.

I see the point now. Thank you for this information.

Hi, I posted about converting DL, and someone pointed to your post since Israel & Singapore fall in the same category. Sorry to read of your going-in-circle.

So, I'd like to know if your Israeli DL require only a conversion, i.e. no tests whatsoever, just that stupid translation? Would it suffice to just go to ADAC (rather than the first stop you mentioned in your post)? Did you get the translated document on the spot? Actually, there is not very much text on my DL, I can't imagine it to take more than 10 min, and I hope translating English to German would be much easier for the ADAC to do.

Would really make my day now if I don't have to take stupid tests!

Hey Genie, i know it's a bit late know, but next time you need translate a document from hebrew to german, i know a good notary who's fluent in german and hebrew. i used her to tranlate my israeli license to get a german one.

Hello Everybody...my very first posting here!!

Without trivializing any of your horror experiences, I just wanted you to know that you can be thankful you do not have a Jamaican DL or it could get MUCH MUCH worse!

Welcome to TT!
Why don't you make a quick detour by the "Newcomers" thread to introduce yourself 'properly' and then come back and tell us your DL horror story?

Oops ! I guess I should do that!! Not while I am on my NEW job though, but certainly later!

OK. I was at the KVR Fuehrerscheinstelle yesterday, thinking that my International Driving Permit which has a page in German will be enough; a couple of German friends "encouraged" me to just go without a translation as my DL is in English, it should suffice. So, I went there, got a waiting number ticket, up to 3rd level, waited half hour.

And you all guessed it. No. The International Driving Permit in German is not valid. Why? Because it is not official. But here's my government stamp on it. No. Not valid. Must be done by ADAC. @!$?

Went to ADAC. I asked the same question why the International Driving Permit in German is not valid & got the same reply even though it was issued by the Association Automobile! Aren't they the same association??

Anyway, I've to pay €36 to do all the translation which consists of my name, DL number, birthdate (which is April, same as in German "April") - all did not require translation. Only possible translation is reading the passed/issued date. €36?! ADAC, huh?! Good thing, he said 1st year membership to ADAC is free so I'm with ADAC. Yeah! (Really?? What's so great?!)

Since KVR is only open half day i.e. up to noon, I have to come back next day.

Today is the next day. Went there at 9 a.m. (It's open from 7 a.m.) and I was the only one at the waiting-number ticket queue. Up to 3rd floor, waited 5 min & I was the first one. YEAH!

Was met with a young-ish girl (early 20s) who spoke with a thick Bavarian accent. (Just amaze me). I'm going home for the holidays and away for >1 month so I need my DL but she won't let me. She needed to send my DL to check my records back home. It'd probably take at least 3 weeks, and the rest, up to 8 weeks. My alternative is to "cancel" today's application and come back when I return, which means I've to wait 8 weeks all over again. So, I decided to give my DL up today and resist the temptation to drive when I'm home.

She said that I can have the German DL for the rest of my life i.e. I do not have to give it up when I leave Germany. However, if I want my home DL back, I have 3 years to do so. After that, they destroy it. I certainly hope they won't lose it! I've to check what is a better DL to hold on to...

So, that's €35 down the drain. I don't know how often I get to drive (don't own a car here) but I guess, the occasion job of driving my drunk friends or otherwise

I guess I'll post back here again when I eventually go & get my German DL!

P.S. It was in a way good to "pre-empt" the experience to be bad, that I was a little "prepared" for it... And certainly shouldn't complain since I did not have to take any theory or practical tests all over

Zimmer, you are lucky that they told you that you could get your old DL back, because usually they say you are not allowed to have 2 DLs...Does that mean you will have to turn in the German one? When they told me i could not retain my old one, I protested since i need it as my ID when i go back home. Of course they said that the "gospel" translation from ADAC does not say that it is a valid ID in my country. Eventually after having me write a letter to their boss, it was returned to me.

By the way my new classification no longer allows me to drive a truck, but the trade off is that I get to drive a tractor!! Sure that will be very useful someday!

Definitely need to trade in my Deutsch DL when I want my old DL back. This was verbally communicated so I hope eventually when I ask for my old DL back, it's there and they will give it back to me. I don't know if it's "country specific" as she called a colleague and verified if they'll return a Singapore DL.

I know someone got TWO DLs after a letter from his employer. Hm. I've got to find out what's in the letter.

Sometimes you can justify keeping your original licence and the German licence if your employer writes a letter saying that they will require you to work your home country. For example in some cases you can't drive the company car if you don't have a local licence. I had this experience some years back, and got the letter, but in the end didn't change my licence over for a German one. (have an English one). Last time I was back in Oz I tried to pick up my Oz licence, but they would only give it in return for the English one :-) I guess they are still in touch with mother England...

One suggestion that I received from an American should help if you have no problems with a little "white lie". If you have reason to be in your own country again before applying here, you report your DL lost. You get a new one so you present one here and hold on to the other. (No moral judgement please!)

Excuse me, the woman said that they are going to check the "authencity" of my DL which I don't know if it means posting it across the ocean or if it just mean typing an email with the "relevant" information SO, if my home authorities are "informed" of my intention to get a DE DL, will they then mark this in my record?? Which means I can't tell a "white lie" of the DL being lost, oder?? (This paranoia is probably years of "suppression". HEHE!) Or, has anyone really done that - report lost of DL - and got a replacement without question?

The "white lie" only works before u have applied for German one, so this bit of advice might not be valid for u anymore Zimmer. I am not certain about this check that they do...did not pick up my missed Court date for allegedly running a red light when they checked mine.

Just an update: When I was back home, I reported "loss" of my DL and got a replacement. The administrator just said that they will invalidate the old one if it's found; when I came back here, I got a notification from the German TÜV to collect my German DL. So, now I have TWO DLs. WOO-HOO! The "We need your DL to send to your home country" is a big lie

I did the, O I lost my DL thing about a year ago, to get a German one, cos the police told me that I needed to. I was then told that you don’t actually have to have a German DL, your UK one is actually a EU DL.
Just for info, the DL is not actually yours it belongs to the state. Therefore if you are driving in a foreign country and the police want to take you licence they are not aloud to. So I guess you should not hand it over.

A UK driving license is only valid (in any country - including the UK) if you are still a resident at the address on the license. There is a 10,000 pound fine if you are caught.

The fine is not quite that high, it's 1,000 pounds. Still a lot of money though!
DVLA
Bottom of the page.

The Dupe US License would be, for when you go home and want to drive. Not For the Germans, or to use
here in Germany. Give the Germans your current License. When you get home goto the local DL place and
get a replacement for your "Losted" license.

The KVR/license place will hold onto your license while you have a German one. Should you want to get
your US license back, you go back to the KVR give'em your DE license and get you US one back.

I think the chick behind the counter is a bit confuesd. I have never heard if the Germans contacting your
state DL office or sending a US License back to the US for "Proofing".

Again. Give the KVR your US license and allow the process to continue to get your DE license. Next time
your home get a Dupe license so you can drive in the US (Costs vary between state but shouldn't be more
than $20-30)

I was told by the KRV that your license is only kept for 3 years, after which it is destroyed.

The answers you get from the KVR vary depending on when and who you ask. (Same for every other German Govt. Office )

If they do destroy it, then thats another excuse to get a dupe license when you go home..

re UK license validity. I have phoned the DVLA on 2 occasions in the last 4 years, both time to be told that they cannot issue a new license to an address outside the UK and that it is fine to continue using it with my last recorded address in the UK.

Appears that there is some confusion within the DVLA and I'll now give them a 3rd call!!

EDIT - OK, checked Allershausen's link. This is exactly the one I quoted to them last time and got the answer above. So Brits, don't worry!