Iranian president calls for "wiping out Israel"

In Isfahan, I encountered an elderly American who had married an Iranian woman before the revolution and goes to Iran frequently. Apparently, he can travel freely in Iran, and nobody ever bothers him (he tells people that he is American, and encounters no personal hostility). I was very surprised by this, but have no reason to doubt what he told me.

At the root of it all, I think you will find, it basically is an American foreign policy issue. Any attitudes any players on this might have are directly related to American string pulling throughout the years. Why DO they love Israel so much? And why do they hate the rest of the middle east so much? Perhaps a more balanced (or better yet, total hands off) approach to the middle east on the part of America would go a long way to calming any such situations in the future.

One big difference between the Iranian people and most of the rest of middle east is that actually they are quite big fans of the west. Unfortunately because of the government's actions and the images shown to us in the Western media this is quite hard to apprehend.
I don't blame Westerners, but just imagine if the only images you ever saw of the US was a gathering of Rush Limbaugh, Pat Robertson, Bill Oreilly, etc. burning down the flags of some country (I wouldn't put it past them).

I don't think it is a matter of defeating Iraq, but how to restructure the next government. So Iran would have been in the same quagmire.

@Akeiri

I recently read an article on different religions over the centuries and read that Iran used to have Sufism as the official religion and that your country was the most tolerant towards people of different religions in the whole world at the time, even spending part of the official budget on restoring and renovating the temples of other religions seated in your country. Religious and cultural tolerance are to me two of the strongest signs of a highly-developed nation. You have a great history to look back on. It's a pity things have politically become the way they are today, not for the West, Israel or for anybody else but for the Iranian people.

Btw, I don't think America hates the other Middle East countries and love Israel. But Israel is a democracy, the only democracy in the whole area. Having a stable democracy is a good thing for any country.

Didn't Iran just have Democratic elections?

Well, not really. For a start, most moderate candidates got disqualified beforehand by the Council of Guardians (or whatever it is called).

Hahaha about as much as apartheid era SA was a democracy. Or are the Palestinians represented fairly in the Israeli parliament and enjoy full rights as citizens?

Fact is, a whole country based on one race or religion at the militant exclusion of another AND getting paid by America to do it, gives me the shits, and should give anyone the shits really.

The problem is that the real power is in the hands of people who are appointed and not elected. The last president was actually quite moderate, but without any power he didn't achieve much in the 8 years of presidency.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought that there are more than 1 m Muslims with Israeli citizenship living in Israel, and they do have the right to vote?

And here's a link backing up that statement: (in German, sorry)

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc..._in_Israel.html

@KZA

This issue is not about the Palestinian problem nor about Apartheid-SA. It is about Iran today. The Apartheid government did give the black people the chance to vote 10 or so years ago already so yes, SA is a democracy today. You can hardly call it a democracy in Iran if the candidates gets presorted before the vote. Israel is the closest thing to a democracy in the Middle East. The Palestinian people need their own country, a separate country, where they could vote and they are getting it finally as well it seems.

I thought that the natives called it "Eire" anyway, oder?

akeiri, it's still early days for those countries. I don't think that in 1948 anyone was singing songs about the success of democracy in Germany and Japan. Furthermore, Japan wasn't infiltrated with Iranian spies supplying training and weapons. Additionally, a whole generation of Iranians have been born under the "Islamic Republic," they seldom have first hand experience with the oppressive measures born under that new Replublic. In a sense, they're used to it.


The British were only mildly involved in this, it was Kermit Roosevelt from the CIA who conceived and lead the sucessfull operation. But this sounds similarily to the objective of the Iranians with a desired Shiite demonitated Iraqi government. When the Brits arrived in Iraq 2003, they found much of the south already in the hands of Iranian secret services. Up to now, the US/UK has been doing the dirty work against Iran's historic enemy, the Sunni lead Iraqi government. It took 3 weeks to take it down, what Iran couldn't achieve for nearly a decade.


This is a joke, right? East Germany was a democracy because that's what they called themselves... Deutsche Demokratische Republic. Or how about The Democratic People's Republic of Korea


I guess the Jews get more militant with every attack on their country, 1948, 1967, 1973, ... Push them, they push back? Israel only got control over the West Bank and Jeruselam AFTER the war of 1967. After Nassar drummed up Arab nationalism, which coincided with the destruction of Israel. He left his country defeated and humiliated by the IDF (again). Saudi Arabia has a huge winfall of petro dollars. Where's that Islamic charity to help the Palestinians?

Kza, FACT: The US govt gives more aid to all Arab countries combined than that of Israel. Isreal is a modern western country with no resources, a highly educated workforce and world-class industries. No amount of foreign governement aid is going to be able to create that. Personally, I think that all aid is bullshit and should be dropped. Where has it ever worked? Trade barries should be elliminated and poor African countries should have access to France's agricultural market (for example). Give a man a fish and he has food for a day...


Excellent point tom_a. Few people in this forum know about that. Or they choose to overlook that fact.

As usual, Bumpy has put an absolute smackdown on his opposition in this thread.

It's rare to see such merciless ownage on TT, rarely have I seen someone (except for myself ) singlehandedly destroy one adversary after the other on a thread.

Ok, I don't want to get off the subject again, but just to counter what you say, here is a fact for you:
Total U.S. aid to Israel is approximately one-third of the American foreign-aid budget, even though Israel comprises just .001 percent of the world's population and already has one of the world's higher per capita incomes. Indeed, Israel's GNP is higher than the combined GNP of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza. In other words, Israel, a country of approximately 6 million people, is currently receiving more U.S. aid than all of Africa, Latin America and the Caribbean combined when you take out Egypt and Colombia.

True, you forgot to add the US to that list.


Noam

@DW, JW.
Boys, boys. Enough with the 'ownage'. It's not a competition. It *was* an interesting thread. Bumpy doesn't need his balls fondled every time he posts something.

This is total BS to say that the British were only mildly involved in this. You obviously have your facts totally screwed up.

So how exactly do you define this as mild involvement??
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Sorry Akeiri, but for an Arab (or pro-Arab) to even to begin to feign interest in African affairs is just hypocritical nonsense.

The fact of the matter, as Bumpy said, is that Arab countries like Egypt and Jordan get hundreds of millions of dollars in aid annually.

I am not an Arab, and also not Pro-Arab. Just stating the facts.

what was that Jules? Owned?

Iran is not an Arab country. Maybe you should have phrased it pro-Muslim or pro-Muslim country.

Thanks OG - cheered up a hard day.

This is copied straight from my favorite page in my 2003 World Almanac and Book of FACTS and clearly debunks what you stated in your post.

One third? 33%? You do the maths...


Egypt and Jordan get quite a bit of money (see above). I can't believe you mentioned Syria of all things. Sorry the US doesn't donate millions of dollars to countries that would like to see it destroyed (?!) - I will write an e-mail to the State Department to suggest a different approach though. Maybe appeasement would be a better solution...

Again though, we are talking about the US and nitpicking about its relationship with Israel and what it does and doesn't do in the Middle East. Where are all these Arab countries that feel such pain and suffering for their fellow Muslim brothers that are being oppressed by the wicked Zionist devil? Why aren't they pumping money into the P.A. to help develop it economically?

OWaiNED, for you to even begin to mention the word "owned" is probably the most outrageous thing ever to happen in the history of TTM considering the number of times you've been clotheslined on threads.

I never said Iran was an Arab country, that's why I put "pro-Arab" in parentheses.

Well the Iranian president just went and removed any doubt as to where he stands

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4384264.stm

Very strange day when Palestine are taking Israel's side of things !!!

Jules,
when you are going to counter an argument please make sure that you are referring to the same thing.
Your numbers above refer only to the funds given for economic development.
The House of Representatives appropriated $2.04 billion in military aid to Israel for 2002 (up from $1.98 billion in 2001) in addition to the above mentioned numbers. The total amount of US aid of this sort has been constant, at around $3 billion.
In addition to nearly $3 billion in direct aid, Israel usually gets another $3 billion or so in indirect aid: military support from the defense budget, forgiven loans, and special grants.


Just for YOUR information:
I referred to Syria's GNP, not amount of funds received from the US.
GNP definition:
The value of a country's final output of goods and services in a year. The value of GNP can be calculated by adding up the amount of money spent on a country's final output of goods and services, or by totaling the income of all citizens of a country including the income from factors of production used abroad.

Why is everyone giving akeiri grief - he didn't agree with the Iranian president !!

Ninja Edit: Note I haven't been bothered actually reading all the posts - just seems like ye're ganging up on him and trying to turn it into "don;t you bash America we're great" when the thread is not abou America

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Source: USAID 15th April 2004. Curt Tarnhoff/Larry Nowels - Specialists in Foreign Affairs - Foreign Affairs and National Defense.

Thanx meckle.

@JW,
Time for it to be right back at you, even tho I think the term is excessively lame... owned!

did anyone read the story I linked ??

ok you lazy-ass good for nothin's

here's an extract

"Tens of thousands of Iranians took part in the rally in Tehran which Iran organises every year on the last Friday of the fasting month of Ramadan to show solidarity with the Palestinian struggle.

Shouting "Death to Israel, death to the Zionists", the protesters dragged Israeli flags along the ground and then set them on fire. Many carried posters and placards sporting the slogan "Israel should be wiped off the map". Joining the protest, Mr Ahmadinejad said: "My words were the Iranian nation's words. "

And the palestinians said:
"But while most Muslim and Arab capitals have remained silent on the remarks, a few have spoken out - including Palestinian chief negotiator Saeb Erekat.

"Palestinians recognise the right of the state of Israel to exist and I reject his comments," he told the BBC News website.

"What we need to be talking about is adding the state of Palestine to the map and not wiping Israel from the map," he said. "

Palestinians backing up Israel ??? Is this not a momentous occasion ???

the full story:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4384264.stm

True, but the whole Ecuador & Ethopia thing put me off.

Currently the fore-runners are 'J' (as previously explained) and 'R' for the parties with the Russians and Romanians.

Still working on it.

oh those will be great parties. the russians will threaten you. and the roumanians will nick your car.

Why don't you aim for 'top-of-the-list' status:

'Aoirland' sounds rather natty. And, look on the bright side; no pronunciation changes.

Well since we're talking about the alleged lack of US aid given for economic development in the Middle East, I think that it's best that we stick to just that. The $3 Billion a year figure that gets bandied around on a regular basis includes military aid, as you mentioned yourself, and loans, the number of which that actually are "forgiven" is debatable and subjective to say the least. We can argue till the cows come home how much money Israel gets from the US and this is something pro-Arabs and Europeans (leftists) love to harp on incessantly about, however it does not change the fact that Arab countries who outwardly express great concern for the trials and tribulations of the people of the Palestinian Authority in actual fact do practically nothing to provide concrete economic assistance. Why?


That's exactly my point. This thread was not about US foreign policy in the Middle East, however the usual fingerpointing has turned it into just that...

Choskey! I NEVER would have thought you'd have brought out that special weapon! I guess that since Susan Sontag is dead, you have to rely on him? Can you also tell me how to subscribe to Michael Moore's inspirational weekly email?

Gee, NZ just recently had a close election where the vote was decided with two seats. Where are all of the conspricy theorists there? How many years has Helan Clark been in office? Conspiricy?!?! There were ahead by only one seat until "special votes" were counted...

By the way, The title of this tread is called "Iranian president calls for "wiping out Israel", More trouble brewing" And you've turned it into a thread about the 2000 elections? Wow, you're sinking to new lows...

I guess you MUST think that Iran is democratically elected! Small poppy, you never even countered that claim. Sounds like another TT straw-man argument. As usual, you think that one-liners suffice for logic...

And as I said, all aid was bullshit. You not continue to read my comments? Focus on the GIST of the argument, not the man behind the curtain quoting numbers. 2/3 people know that 70% of the facts are made up on the spot.

That is the basis of your argument?

http://www.flyingfish.org.uk/articles/rush...00-06-16tim.htm

Admittedly, I prefer to let my NZ girlfriend do that...


And do you have one from 1948 showing Britain as the leading recipient of US Foreign Aid?

Don't be a cunt all your life Bumpy. Sure, we recieved US aid. It was a Lend-Lease (USD$1bn in 1941). Unlike all the rest, we had to pay it all back with interest. Sure fucked the Brits didn't it? But, I guess that's the real meanin' of a 'Special Relationship'. We still haven't finish paying it off. Food rationing. Interfering in British politics. IMF stranglehold. Ever wondered why the British are unproportionally hostile to the Americans? There's yer answer. Crystal like.

Some fuckin' Americans desparately need a smack in the maff sometimes. Don't get me wrong. Most of them are very nice. But, there's this one or two little cocky bastards that need a fuckin' good thumpin'.

I am sick of arguing. I am done with this thread.

How dare he disagree with you!? It certainly warranted you calling him a cunt.

You're either with us, or against us...

Well, Jules knows that I am fully against him. You Bumpy, I do not know. But bringin' the 1948 'aid' to Great Britain into the discussion was well below the belt. You couldn't have been any more insulting if you'd tried.

yaaawwwwnnn...

have you guys fixed the world yet?

There's not enough Pritt to go around Chicago

Insulting if you're an anti-American zealot.

I knew this thread would be my best chance at not dieing of boredom today

Third term...and? Special votes...like mine sent in from overseas, big whoop, she's been the favoured leader of NZ for fucking ages. Doesn't take a genius to figure out that the most popular one wins


And it went off on a tangent of democracy there for a while, you were right there with it and by no means did I turn it into a thread on the 2000 elections, I made mention of it, that was it. Get a grip


Small poppy? Ha! I love it how you get so easily riled and start with pathetic jabs, it belies your age embarrasingly.
I guess you didn't understand what I was saying when I posted about the US's "democracy". Iran's "democratic" elections, were not very democratic, just like many claim of those of 2000 in the US. Just making the correlation and showing the what is perceived to be acceptable democracy by one nation is not by others

Oh ok, I'll bite, even though this threads got stains all over it now. So much for thinking it could turn into an interesting conversation.
Once again, it's a my dicks bigger and better than your dick competition. No fair. You brats!!


Well then, your kiwi gf may know of this term. Your outburst above is commonly known there as cranking. It is when someone cries and wanks at the same time. I am sure you are familiar with it, though.

Seriously though, Bumpy. Go pour yourself a drink. And no milk before bed time, it'll get rid of those Michael Moore nightmares.

It's nice to see that your hatred is backed by ignorance. About 20% (19.5% in 2004) of the population of Israel (pre 1967 borders) are Arabs, and they get to vote whoever they like. In fact, they seem to have the nice habit of voting for people who then go and meet heads of terrorist organizations like Abu Nidal and sit around with leaders of Hizbulla, an organization who seeks to destroy the country whose parliament they represent. But whatever, they have the right to do that, right? I'm sure that in whichever country you come from, backing the destruction of your own country is constitutionally allowed. Oh, and by the way, did you know that the only political party banned from Israeli politics was a nationalist Jewish party? I'm sure you did.

As for the people inhabiting the territories occupied in 1967, I'm sure that annexing these territories and declaring them citizens of Israel would be the thing you want, right? I'm sure they would too. They're just dying for the moment they could join the state of Israel. Or maybe you think that we should grant them a right to vote without them being a part of Israel?

Another solution would be to separate into two countries based on nationality, but apparently, from your chewed-out rhetoric it seems this doesn't even come into consideration. Race? I challenge you to define racial identification guidelines for Jews. Forget about DNA, by the way. All groups trying to define this have failed miserably. Religion? I'm about as far away from that as you can imagine, and yet I'm still Israeli, and proudly a Zionist for that matter. I think you simply derive your understanding of that word from the Sun or das Bild or something, because it clearly means something else to me than it does to you.

Maybe you should go ahead and read Alteneuland, the seminal Zionist publication that more or less marked the beginning of the whole movement. You don't even have to read it in German, the language in which it was originally written. Find out why Herzl thought Jews couldn't get along in Europe in end of the 19th century. You can also go 50 years ahead in history, just to convince yourself how prophetic his insight actually were.

So yes, I think that a homeland for Jews, based on nationality, is a good idea. A bit more than 6 million people too late (not counting other massacres, that is). I also think it would be a good idea to let all its citizens vote to whomever they want, regardless of their race, religion, gender or whatever (did I forget something here?).


I'm sure this is what you mean by a state not being based on religion.


Well, as a terrorist I must say that my share of shredding innocent women and children has been neglected lately. Maybe because it became so hard to get your hands on the odd 10-20 palestinians every day, as I did before I came to live here. Or maybe I got you wrong, and maybe in the media athmosphere of everythingism, everything that seems a bad idea to you is immediately the worst thing that could possibly, and then you just look up a baddy word that seems to be in fasion to use as a bashing instrument.

YUCK!