European stereotypes of the USA

I love Europe, I love the USA, I don't stereotype people based on where they are from. When I meet Irish I don't assume they're alcoholics, I don't assume all French are arrogant chain-smokers, and I don't figure the Italians are all lazy. I wish people on both sides of the Atlantic sould see through their bias and not generalize 300,000,000 people as being a certain way.

The following is a bit of a rant which is no way should be considered patriotic flag-waving a la our friend Eric a few weeks ago (I'm very candid about my problems with the USA) because it is not. I'm just a bit peeved at the moment...

Christie had a lovely conversation with a woman (from a European country which I won't mention but it isn't the 1st time I've had a run-in with somebody from there) last night about how stupid Americans were. It took most of her strength to keep me from going off on the woman and saying, "the day your country can stop hiring Americans to run your companies, design your airplanes, operate your stock exchanges, and when you learn that your patronage of American food, movies, television, etc. keeps them profitable and thus makes the US 'invade your culture' is the day that you are allowed to call Americans stupid."

Probably for the best I kept quiet.

So, reading this article this morning hit a particularly bruised nerve. Given that the French are the largest consumers of McDonals in the world (fact) I find the hamburger stereotype particularly laughable:

Seattle is closer to France than to Texas

It is true... and it's also false. That's the problem. The U.S. is a fucking big country; no stereotype you try to apply to it is going to apply to everybody. This is hard for many Europeans to comprehend, because they're used to countries being the size you could drive across in a day or less. The fact is, USA is actually about five different countries in terms of regional temperment (Northeast, West Coast & Rockies, Midwest, Midsouth, Gulf Coast), and even then you can divide and divide and divide.

Not to beat a dead horse but the Bush, Hitler, Stalin comparison which rears its head again here is pathetic:

Nazi Germany: Murdered 6 million Jews, Polish Catholics, Gypsies, etc. Starved/froze 25 million Russians to death, destroyed much of Europe and Western Asia.
Former USSR: Communist leaders murdered over 100 million people since 1917.
Bush - Overthrew the Baathist regime and Taliban.

Yeah. There's a fair comparison. Even call the reasons for the Iraq war dubious (I certainly do), it still doesn't compare on any sane level.

As for the typical American stereotype of France:

"[img]http://home.comcast.net/~cuervo6669/french_soldier_magazine.jpg[/img]

Truth be told, I love the French; great culture, fool, wine, history, etc. but the "France surrenders" joke will always be funny - is it better to be seen as wimps (France) or bullies (USA)? Beats me.

I blame the Dutch.

EDIT: By the way - lesson number 1 of drinking in GMs, is try and NEVER chat to people you don't know down there.

I too blame the Dutch; if there is one nation that you can categorically stereotype it's the Dutch. Skin eating, wooden shoe wearing, pot smoking, tulip planting weirdos!

I, of course, am kidding

Politics and Religion. Subjects which should be banned from pub conversations.

Incidentally and completely unrelated to anything, as I was leaving the pub last night I playfully (and kinda roughly) toussled the long wavy black hair of a Brazilian friend of mine. Just at the same moment I saw her sitting a couple of feet away on a different stool. Oops, wrong Brazilian! I decided to just keep walking and hopefully let her figure out for herself what happened.

aww. Don't take it personally, DW. The French hate everybody.*

Still, I wish the current administration gave a damn about our country's image. If school kids are thinking that way right now, it'll be a long while before any of it gets cleared up.

*This message brought to you in the interest of sarcastic levity. <insert smiley face/clown hat bollocks here>

Speaking of Brazilians, Keydeck, I think one of the guys I work with is Scottish. (he's kinda sexy too. I think )

I totally agree. I don't think foreign policy should be based on whether the Euros would like it or not but the attitude with which the current administration has treated Europe with for the last 2 years is embarassing.

Okay, I should throw my opinion in here, since the Dutch are mentioned above (and San is not here and Jeff is probably recovering from Prague).

Although I am Dutch myself I have to agree of the Dutch can be categorized as stereotype easily. Myself I try to avoid that, but for example: Take a drive on the highways around Munich on a Saturday morning or afternoon, and you'll notice that half of the cars on the highway have a yellow and black license plate. When you're really paying attention, you'll see that most of 'em are Opel's, Renaults or Peugeot's. When you look in those cars, you see the father driving, the mother is flipping the map trying to figure out where they are going, and on the back seat there are typically two or three kids playing the gameboy. Since almost all the cars are station wagons, the trunk is stuffed with baggage, and sometimes they have the box on top of the car (which we always say that's the place where grandma goes ).

When I'm driving through that kind of traffic, I always wish I have German license plates...

Thing 1: When I was trapped on the Autobahn for about 3 hours in a blizzard a couple of years ago on a torturous 11 hour drive to Vienna it was the Dutch people who offered us food and drinks. The Germans sometimes take the piss because the Dutch come here and bring absolutely everything that they need with them, usually including food & accommodation, but they were the one who helped us out.

Thing 2: I used to go out with a Dutch girl. We were together for just over 2 months and to this day I cannot pronounce her name correctly.

Thing 3: They're toight. Toight like a Toiger!!

this is late gettin' in DrivinWest, but you shoulda said something. when i first got here i always kept quiet and felt worse about it afterwards. now if i hear stupid shit like that, then i snap out a comment or two and watch how the other party reacts. i always feel better about it in the end and i never get personal.

I hope you're talkin about the Dutch girls in which case good info... ummmm... Belgians are not toight from my experiences... he he

I always make fun about the Americans cause there are some really funny examples and I truly hope that I never got personal. I also know some great ppl from the US, who I appreciate and admire for the global knowledge of history and art. I can understand how you felt DW as I was once in the situation. I went to a party and got in an easy conversation with a british woman. She thought I was irish and started to go mental about the Germans. I listened to her but she got really abusive (hate, fuck, bloody were some words she used at least once a sentence) so i finally said that I'm German and agree with her in some parts but not in all and tried to give some other point of views. She started over it again and got pretty personal as finally she didn't even only generalize Germans but started every sentence with "you...!" I left as i couldn't see any way to get out of that conversation without smacking her.
Stereotypes are stereotypes because the majority of the known ppl are like that. (eg in germany ppl think turks are using that particular funny German, wear big gold chains and eat Döner, but there are probably more turks which are not like that, and still it's a stereotype) There is nothing bad about stereotypes in general. Travelling and living abroad just brings the responsibility for each of us of changing the stereotype. eyery one is an ambassodor on his own. If you are in such a conversation where you can see, ppl are obsessed with their own opinion, just drop the converstion. There is no way out.
As keydeck said,
Please feel welcome here anyway.

...and the Dutch. Never mention the Dutch.

Pull my finger. Chuckle chuckle.
With the dutch that one never gets old!

Jesus are all Yanks such whiny little pussies as you DrivinWest ?

But Nick Cave isn't a yank...

Sorry, to say anything, but everybody can post his/her own opinion so come on guys... how many posts have u put in, which nobody cared about. Get a grip! and if ur not interested, don't post. Others do care.

That's a pretty broad and extremely offensive statement if you are indeed being serious.

That is the most ridiculous statement i've heard since being on TT.

I think Parnell was entirely justified because of the good picture. That one will have to be reused. Perhaps a new rule could be 'only post to say you don't care if you bring a nice picture along'?

edit: i don't mean justified on the 'whiney pussy' bit. I remain agnostic on that.

I for one am happy parnell posted what he did because it proves DrivinWest's point. Somehow, many non Americans find it acceptable to insult Americans in their presence (I am not talking about "taking the piss" or talking with Americans you know personally very well). I have experienced it many many times and it is simply ignorant and rude. End of story. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but there is no excuse for personally insulting people based on their nationality alone, regardless what you think of their nation's foreign policy etc. The ironic thing is that, in my experience, these are the same people that otherwise preach tolerance of other nations, races and religions.

Rightly or wrongly, the U.S. gets criticized for just about everything and as an American abroad this weighs on you regardless of how hard you try to ignore it. Being directly insulted only adds fuel to the fire. Elfenstar has it right. You don't have to just sit back and take it. You should speak up.

@Brummie
So if he had called Brits "whiny little pussies", I suppose you'd still be agnostic?

Even worse is I am being acused of "generalising" other people in the snowball post. "The american generalisations of the world" Some people need to know the difference between taking the piss on some friends and generalising and being ignorant.

@ ketchup - i had intended my post to be in jest. sorry. the edit was merely to make it clear i was expressing admiration for the picture posted and was not siding with or against the comments made. i probably shouldn't have attempted to be flippant in the middle of a thread people were getting worked up about.

oh btw, your comment to me is not, strictly speaking, applicable - Parnell did not call all americans 'whiney pussies' he claimed one american was that and then asked if all others were.

@Brummie
True. Should have written "if DrivinWest were British would you still be agnostic?"

Brummie, I disagree. Parnell's comment may have been a question but the implication is clear. Trying to lighten it by saying he was not calling all Americans pussies, sorry, whiney pussies, but asking a question is wrong. Just my opinion, but I think the comment was out of order. If it had been a skin colour thing rather than an American thing then nobody would say that it wasn't a racist comment. Nobody would say, "but he's just asking the question".

it was purely a semantic point. hence the 'strictly speaking' in my reply.

Unless the people are German of course. Insulting Germans based solely on their nationality is perfectly acceptable, and my birthright

@fusilli


Good lad, using some english slang, but just for future reference, you take the piss OUT of people. However I do like your version, and will use it from now on whenever I am doing Borat impressions.

@brummie
I don't know the bloke, but have met him, and DrivinWest does not come across a a whining pussy atall.

what is the stereotype then?
i have only seen so far in the initial thread that americans are stupid.
surely there's more to a sterotype than that.

Everyone knows Brits are whiny pussies... whats your point ?

Well actually the guy has at least as much a go at many European countries as I did , the only difference was my wording was (to anyone with any experience of pub life or humour however pathetic) shorter...
In fact I thought the guy was mostly being humourous himself hence the pic at the bottom: were he being serious then I would only have 3 words: French Foreign Legion.

If anyone wants to make a serious argument out of relative contribution to the world by any European state vs the USA : bring it on.


And yeh , calling Huns murderers is bang out of order if we cant bring up the fact that only 60,000 G.I.s died in Vietnam versus 2.3m. VietCong (some via dioxin poisoning which I'd be happy to write a couple of lines and post some nice pics of so all the little do-gooders who sing the Stars and Stripes while clutching bibles to their breasts believing that Uncle Sam is a "good guy" can sleep happily on their fluffy pillows) , some thrown out of helicopters and tortured mercilessly... of course when Bertrand Russell tried to instigate a War Crimes tribunal on the same basis as the American Supreme Court Judge Robert Jackson had at Nuremberg for the U.S. government :

"If certain acts and violations of treaties are crimes, they are crimes whether the United States does them or whether Germany does them. We are not prepared to lay down a rule of criminal conduct against others which we would not be willing to have invoked against us."

- the U.S. administration did everything in its power to refuse to cooperate and had Russell silenced , brilliant mathematician and philosoper that he was. To add to that your sitting President has forced many nations to sign a pact forbidding the trial of American soldiers under War Crimes legislation... yeh you guys are real heroes alright...

Yada yada yada (trust me this is a topic I know well)

In conclusion I am not surprised that the comedic genius that is Southpark comes from CANADA!

P.S. I dont hate Yanks , I just think they are dumb to hate on others ...
I'm surprised at a fellow Irishman in not seeing the intent in my original post but sure maybe that's why ol man J.C. brought me here to this board he he

P.P.S. On a final point if I was in the States (which I have been and return to quite often on business) and I started moanin on about how Yanks were a bunch o losers or fatasses (or whatever) , most of those with guts would tell me to ge the fuck out if it was so bad... which is EXACTLY what I say back to all the damn Yanks who are tryin to take a bite outta me right now (although blow me if anyone of em has made a logical argument besides "Why is everybody beatin on me ?") - like it or not you have a damn murderous president who bitchered thousands of people on disproved claims of WMD - dont be too surprised if when u get into a political debate with folks over here they let you have it - as mentioned earlier you've bein givin the poor Germans shit for nigh on 50 years now!

Congratulations , you have a pair of balls , I suggest you hold onto them.

such as, for example, funding the expedition that "discovered" that your rather large island even existed. and sending some people over there to farm crops. and inventing most of the languages spoken in your part of the world... or the basis of your legal system... and being responsible for the better part of human scientific discovery and cultural heritage (architecture? literature? sculpture? music? painting?) before the year 300 and after the year 1400 (the bit in between is debatable to some extent)... and so on...

I have encountered goldfish with longer memory spans...

so some chap originally from mumbai currently living near seattle invented the xbox console and a few creative types in california drew a fish named nemo. hmmm... oh yes and you kicked up a bit of a fuss in this place named baghdad. rock my world, baby...

PS: I rather enjoyed living in the US. the beef is of reasonable quality and the roads are wide. jolly good. but the beer is appalling and it gets far too hot in summer

Yet again this thread has descended into mud slinging, most of it aimed at the USA and its cititzens - surely we've had enough of this bullshit now?
Drivin' West was merely having a bit of a rant because some people (English speaking Europeans I might add) decided to tell his girlfriend that she is stupid. Oddly enough his girlfriend, quite apart from being lovely, is also extremely intelligent and is in fact a rocket scientist for NASA (no, really - she actually is). Understandably Aaron got pissed off at the generalisation. Can we just leave it at that? This board is full of anti-American bullshit these days, and frankly using President Bush as an excuse to bash Americans is getting a tad boring...

I'm with Jimbo. I suspect the real problem lies in generalizing (yup, you know where I'm from) about any group of people based on their nationality, among other things.

There's a lot the USA, as a country, has to answer for, and the tendency, outside of its borders, is to expect it to answer for even more than it probably should. Fine--as a nation, it deserves to cop it, and often. That's mostly not because of what happens as a result of US policy, but because of the arrogant attitude many Americans (chief among them political leaders, especially the current crop) assume when they are asked to assess their contribution to the well-being of the world. In that light, many Americans seem unable to conceive of America, the nation, as working for anything but the greater good, so it's difficult for them to understand, for example, that while their contributions in WWII are overall a good thing, they did step in a bit late, they persist in saying it started later than it did (all on the American scale), they often refuse to admit that, yes, WWII turned out to be a fairly good business proposition from the American standpoint, and, over 50 years after the fact, they still consider it a valid way to justify their insistence that Europeans back their sometimes questionable foreign policy. None of that is particularly to the credit of Americans, and all of it deserves to be criticized. The trouble comes when, instead of understanding the distinction between US policy and the individual American, people insist on laying shit like this at the individual's doorstep, and decide that they don't have to be civil as a result, because THIS American is responsible for everything the American administration has done. It would be a bit like me accosting an 80 year old Munich woman for her role in the Holocaust. It just isn't fair. What it is is frustration with one's inability to accost anyone or anything regarding these things--even laying it at Bush's doorstep really doesn't address the problem, because all of these things are overall cultural trends--and while Bush echoes a lot of the nastier sentiments in American culture, to say he's personally responsible for not only those social ills resulting from American policy, but for all the ills of the world would be a bit silly, and would be to display the same sort of arrogance Americans are so regularly faulted with.

If you're going to be criticizing someone for the foreign policy coming from their nation, you should probably learn to divorce that policy from the individual you're speaking to. And, Americans, to be honest, grow a thick skin. A good portion of this sort of thing is good-natured at base. When it isn't, chalk it up to the steady promulgation of what is perhaps the single most admirable aspect of American principles (though not so well practiced, it is a good idea at base)--Freedom of Speech. We're being criticized right now because the nation, as a whole, is doing some pretty bizarre and incomprehensible things to the world, and because the administration--which is, ostensibly, a reflection of the will of the majority of the people--is quite unreceptive to the views of just about any nation that doesn't agree with its concept of order. That's valid, if not always comfortable. And when that criticism emanates from so clearly an emotional (as opposed to rational and well thought out) base as that offered by Parnell, well, savor the irony of a person who, while faulting generalizations, seems to think it perfectly acceptable to attack you, personally, for the existence of George W. Bush, and the fact that Americans went to Viet Nam and were not always noted for their gentlemanly carraige. If you had something to do with that, take it on the chin--you deserve it. If not, understand it for the railing that it is.

It's part of being American. And if none of that makes any sense, then you can always fall back on that excellent American stereotype of the well-meaning but fundamentally flawed father as he fails to explain to his children why they must perform an unpleasant task: 'Wa-al, son, you gotta do it 'cause it builds character.'

Get tough. Show 'em what we're really made of.

That you are really made of me?

Sorry, frivolous, non-necessary comment. Feel free to ignore.

oh yeah, I like.

Silly, frivolous is just what the dr. ordered.

Trust a Canadian to come through in a pinch. Must be having to deal with that cold for 4 months of the year--at least. At some point, you gotta learn to laugh or die of seriousness.

Thanks.

Parnell, I'm guessing that I am the fellow Irishman to whom you refer. If not then I'm speaking out of turn. However, your original post was "Jesus are all Yanks such whiny little pussies as you DrivinWest ?". Well actually your original post was about Dutch girls, but that's beside the point. Anyway, I just think that, whatever the motivation or intention, your post was out of order. I've never met you and I don't know if others have, but it always seems to be the characters who have not met the other board members who have a tendancy to make the most abusive comments and try to stir the most shite. Perhaps these characters are just extra usernames created by people for when they want to say something nasty, or perhaps they are like the coward who shouts abuse but only after he's gone round a corner, or else they are just malevolent little shits with nothing better to do with their time than try to wind people up. In any case, I don't see the same ever coming from those who have met each other in peson. That's all I wanna say on this thread. Parnell, if you are in Munich come along to Murphy's for the rugby tomorrow and let's meet you and have a beer.

You're on pal , I'm up to my tits with study at the moment but I'll be there for the game - trust me I only post here under this name and if you met me in person you'd know I'm just as outspoken...would be cool to meet some new folks. Actually you know I didn't mean to cause offence - I was just having a laugh , you can "give" offence and you can "take" offence ya know.
Here is what I look like :

He he ... only kiddin man ... I'm about 5'11 , pretty broad , about 225 lbs,brown hair, ugly as all hell, I won't be drinkin as I got exams comin soon , so don't be pushin me cos I'm weak like that he he. Post a pic of urself here : the ones I have here are all way above 100kb.

First of all pal good post - you make logical points - but problem is you're a victim of you're own logic - the original poster started out with the individual and then went to the country as a generalisation - I merely mirrored that.
However - freedom of speech is not an American concept as you should know well - it certainly did not originate there.
Thirdly , I did not get personal , I made a deliberately over-the-top remark that the guy was whining at length and threw in a picture just to show the mentally challenged amongst us that I was joking - if you bothered to read my overly long post earlier you would have realised this.
Finally I have had this debate countless times on countless boards - I assure you I'm not being emotional although I do continue to think you are - where in my post do I express emotion (other than boredom with the close minded nature of some posters who cannot see both sides of the story here).

Take it easy, Parnell. I'm an ex-pat for 5 years and hope not to go back so long as Bush and co. are in office. In fact, the thing that would most signal that the country was headed back in the right direction to me is very unlikely to happen...so is the case. That 'Moran' pic looks like something right out of my old stomping grounds in America, I grew up with the worst of that, and was told that if I didn't like it, I could find a better place to live--the assumption being, of course, that there ARE no better places to live. I'm also very disappointed with the direction the place is headed--and you can check out former posts by me and that statement will be borne out. But the principles--and you're right, they're not American, but they are supposed to be foundational principles of the 'democratic experiment' that is America, and it is always those I refer back to. If there's no other evidence for my viewpoints, viewpoints that are considered 'extreme' by many Americans, there is the fact of the Patriot Act, an act that I abhor, and one that I think signals the fact that terrorists won on September 11--because terrorism is violence perpetrated to effect political ends, and Americans getting so scared that they barter their freedoms away for an illusion of security--that looks like a victory for Al Queda to me. I suspect I'm pretty much in line with what you have to say, politically--I admire Moore, for example, though I question his tactics. I admire Noam Chomsky as well, though I question his insistence on always blaming America (whatever that is) and assuming that the opposite side is always a victim and/or operative of vast American conspiracies to take over the world who have run afoul of their bosses. I admire REAL thinkers like Foucault much more than either of these two, and he's French, but he doesn't have a lot to say about specific events today--more theory. I think about this stuff, and I do so critically, and I think the USA has a lot to answer for. But then, I think that about most politicians, no matter where they're from. So take it easy. I suspect we could have a good evening out over Dunklesweissbier and manage to sort out most of the world's problems with such monster intelligence EVEN WHEN we were wholly pissed. Course, that's the problem. It'd just be talk, and while that does change things, it doesn't change enough.

I'm off the cuff here. If you wanna see how I really think, I can provide a link to more reflective words I have written on the subjects at hand. I don't think we have that much to disagree about, and I assume your saying 'good post' is reflective of that.

Points:
Can't answer for someone else's words. And if this is how you read the original post, as blasting other nations, I can't answer for that. I didn't see it--but maybe I'm being obtuse. In any case, I think generalizations as a rule are not usually all that good for actually getting to the root of the problem.


Didn't say that, but it is supposed to be a founding principle of the laws in that nation. That doesn't always work in practice, but I do think the principle a fundamentally sound one, whoever you want to credit with it. In fact, I'd say it's one of the most important rights to be protected.

Okay. I'll cop that, with this proviso: your 'whiney pussy' post could have been taken the wrong way. Tone is hard to measure in written text, and sometimes irony doesn't come through as clearly as you might wish. Thus arise misunderstandings.

I know. I've been working on forums--with bloody artists, no less--for a few years. I've seen people come to the online equivalent of blows over really ridiculous shit.


I'm sure I am being emotional on some level, but I did want to try my hand at controlling those emotions in the interests of promoting a civil discussion of the matter, instead of people flinging mud at each other over their nationalities. As to your own emotionality, which you insist you don't have (and kudos to you for escaping, somehow, that fundamental human state), try this on for size:

or this


Although I'm certain you have encountered both of these scenarios in your dealings with Americans, I'm not sure DW's original post is particularly hateful--he took the piss out of the French, sure, but hey--teasing the French is fun, and most of the French I've encountered are pretty amiable about having it done to them--but even that he qualified by saying he loved French culture. Hate? Throw that at Bush, and I think you'd have a point. I'm not sure it's so strong in relation to DW's original post. On the second, one of the things that pissed me off most about growing up where I did was people who WOULD say 'get the fuck out if it was so bad'--how about offering cogent criticism in an effort to fix the problem? Coming from the mouth of an Okie redneck, I didn't like this sentiment, and I'm not really any more convinced of it's validity when it comes from an Irishman (or woman, though your words do have that masculine tang...). Then there is the matter of Yanks trying to take the bite outta you right now...maybe...but I think the benny of the doubt was extended early on in the conversation when Ketchup said 'That's a pretty broad and extremely offensive statement if you are indeed being serious.' As an Irishman (or woman), I would expect you to give the conditional upon which this sentence ends its full value.

Lighten up. We're all humans, we all end up in the same place, and we all shit. We are also, in my mind, all very prone to being capable of much more than we actually accomplish--something that might go a long way to explaining the state of the world, no matter who's in charge.

I'm cool if you are.

I think it's interesting that this:

might be considered arrogant but this:


and this:

might not be. Just a thought.


Then add if your comment was not meant to be insulting.

What it boils down to is this, many people think that insulting Americans (calling all Americans stupid or otherwise...especially to their face (DW's case)) is OK. Fine, I can accept that but don't expect my respect. I throw these people in the same category as a racist or any other bigot because at the end of the day, that's what they are. The sad thing is that comments made against blacks, Jews or "thieving Hungarians" get (rightly) jumped upon but comments against Americans are (with a few commendable exceptions) accepted (not just talking about the board here). BTW I am not calling anyone on this board a racist or bigot but there have been (intentionally or not) some borderline comments made. Let's just try to avoid that in future.

By the way, regarding the thick skin comment, I've got one. I'm not sitting here foaming at the mouth. On the other hand, I feel it's my right to speak up against whatever I deem to be unfair and if that's considered whining then so be it but don't expect me to sit here and take it.

Finally, Parnell does have a point about one thing, Americans should speak up and say F* You when insulted. We'd get more respect and the abuse might even stop if enough of us spoke up. If you take it and sit there insulted then you've partially got yourself to blame.

Papa _Geno : Dude , I'm fuckin glad I came to this board now just for your post , we are obviously very much on the same page here - people are gettin their tits in wringer here for all the wrong reasons. I LOVE America but the America I love has lost its way in the world , when smart young men like John Kennedy (albeit riddled with issues and weaknesses himself) stood for things and mostly believed in what they said. I could go into volumes about the hypocrasy of Truman etc...
Sadly most people do not read philosophy or are not interested enough to take a real interest in the machinations of governments . I made a slapstick post and something great has come of it - I am truly pleased.
I apologise to you personally since I did not do a search for your past posts but that is going to change as of today - in truth I'm an admirer of Schopenhauer above all , for me consistentcy in a society is more important than right or wrong since right and wrong are sadly too objective for the world as a whole.

I would like to know how you consider right and wrong to be objective. Not only objective but "too" objective for the world.

Surely if right and wrong were truely objective, almost all political problems would instantly resolve themselves.

The problem is, outside of small groups (Churches, Communes, Rand supporters) right and wrong is subjective.

How would you categorize yourself, philosophically?


This frightens me. To me, a healthy society is one built on diversity. Social consistancy is ususally pursued as a goal by totalitarian leaders, more for their own benefit than their countries.

Makes me happy to hear it, Parnell.

Yup, it's important stuff, and I only wish more Americans would take to heart the words of T. Jefferson, no doubt a flawed human being in some respects, but also a very smart man who was instrumental in drafting a piece of legislation that is, in principle, very sound, when he says, 'The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.' I guess, when I hear people bashing America and/or Americans, I'm listening for those areas where the criticism can help--when it's just slagging, I'm less interested.

Americans being informed, across the board, would be a big help. Some are, some aren't. Course, the fact that there are informed Americans pretty much makes a hash out of the Moore-type, 'Americans all stink' comments. Not all of them stink. Just a lot of very visible ones.

& I agree, consistency is probably the better measure, on the practical level, at least. Beats hell out of taking Bush/Cheney's word for what's best for the world on faith.

Cool beans all round. & thanks for the post.

gotta run--p_g

Sorry to interrupt the love-in but comments such as these...


...make me want to vomit. The implication being that people who might possibly have a differing opinion or see things another way couldn't possibly possess the "monster" intelligence that you two do. Unfortunately, the world isn't black and white like in your philosophy books. Get off your liberal high horse and confront reality. I respect your opinions and would most likely agree here and there but please spare me the grandstanding...a Dunkleweissbier would be nice however!

funny whiny pusses managed to repress neighbouring countries for hundreds of years at will.

says a lot about the other countries eh?

Everything the Brits did they learnt from the Romans. Now they were true conquerers.

As one Australian said to the other " How do ya know when a planeload of POMs has arrived ??? The plane keeps on whining after the engines have been switched off ! "

Ketchup--

My comments re: my monster intelligence and my ability to solve the world's problems are wholly tongue in cheek, I assure you. I would have thought the two sentences after your quote would have made that clear, but...for clarification.

Get off your own high horse. Or--vomit at will.

Perhaps a dunklesweiss to get you started?