Addressing a letter

This question is open to all, but I'm especially interested in how British women feel about it. I understand that correct form in Britain states that if you don't know who you are writing to, you address it to "Dear Sirs". In North America, it's normally "Dear Sir or Madam" or "To Whom It May Concern".

My point is, I often get letters and emails from people addressing it to "Dear Sir" looking for work and it annoys the heck out of me. I don't automatically throw them out, but they do go to the bottom of the consideration pile. It also drives me nuts when I see it used in the newspapers in Letters to the Editor.

Why do Brits use such an antiquated system of address? It's hardly like there is only men involved in business nowadays, a woman is just as likely to be the recipient as a man, why stick with this and have a 50% risk in losing your reader's interest?

What do others think?

Try having a standard man's name as surname with a funnily spelled first name. Though the Germans had a worse time with that.
Course they had an excuse with me - your name is clearly female and any decent job hunter should be able to find that out (or not? I haven't checked your web page lately).
Oh - I don't know why - I insist on the Dear Sir or Madam approach even when dealing with non-Americans.

Dear Sirs,


if you know its clearly the done thing in britain, why are you putting them to the bottom of the pile? im astonished you would damage someones case to get a job because they have followed the standard procedure which you are fully aware of! bloody harsh if you ask me.

Because they will be teaching Germans international English, not only what's done in Britain. If you addressed a letter like that in the States, it would be considered extremely sexist and probably get thrown out, not put the bottom of the pile. Therefore, along with ticking me off personally, they show a lack of cultural awareness.

DDBug, they don't know my name unless they really search my webpage. Not knowing is okay, the assumption that I'm male is not.

international english is disgusting and foul - the only language worth speaking is british english. cant you change what the person will have to teach?

its a man's world - i dont see how this is lacking in cultural awareness.

Not if they want to get a job in most companies. International English (meaning as neutral as possible and as understandable as possible while insulting as few people as possible) is pretty much standard.
(Just had a meeting with the (German) CEO about that last week - gosh, I'm so (not) important)

i reckon if someone addressed a letter to me with "Dear Sir or Madam" i would throw their application straight in the bin, i mean ffs what are we trying to promote here, equality in the workplace or something? what would be the point in that?

Can't wait to see Schotte in a frilly apron, doing the dishes just like his wifey told him. But don't troll too hard please Schotte, I really am interested in what others say about it.

only if the money is right

i wasnt trolling!!!

Here's my question - do you use a colon in a formal business letter (Dear Ms. xxx:) ?
We had a discussion about this last month (not at CEO level though).

Never seen that ever. I always use a comma there.

It's not standard practice in Britain, either.
It'd piss me off as well.

I've often seen it used by American law firms and universities.

I work in an American law firm and we tend to use Ladies and Gentlemen, not To Whom It May Concern. Dear Sir(s) indeed has been banned. (As has Merry Christmas, it has to be Happy Holiday Season)

Oh dear.

Kay, are you referring to the colon question or the gender question?

As for "Ladies & Gentlemen", I know that some people use that, but I don't. It's what I'd use for addressing an audience, not a letter.

@Showem
The colon...
As for the gender question, I tend to go for "Dear Sir or Madam" (if the letter is not addressed to a specific person, obviously).

I learned 'Dear Sir / Madam' as a Brit. 'Dear Sir' or 'Dear Sirs' was only taught amongst the older generations, and hence is mostly only used by 'older' people.

Interestingly enough, in German you start letters with 'Sehr geehrte Damen und Herren', i.e. females then males, and they consider our 'Sir / Madam' approach sexist.

I agree about the 'ladies and gentlemen' comment; many Germans seem to use this for letters in English, and it's plain incorrect, as it's a verbal address, as you say, to open a speech with.

Sorry about adding the colon question. Part of the "problem" is the Sachs commercial correspondence book (used to teach English correspondance way more than it should be). Both points come up in there. And I find "Dear Sirs" and a colon both not right.

But they serve different purposes entirely...

not really. Dear Sir / Madam is more common

"Dear Sir or Madam," conforms to modern politik without changing everything (colon!! wtf). "To whom it may concern," is also acceptable but a bit of a kerfuffle and "Ladies and Gentlemen!!" sounds like you're announcing a magic act

In Ireland I learnt to write "Dear Sir / Madam" at school. Or maybe there was an "or" instead of the slash. I can't remember so well any more. And yeah, with a comma after it.

I'd never heard of "Dear Sirs" being used when the name/sex of the addressee is unknown. I assumed that was only used if you knew you were addressing a letter to a large number of males (simpler than writing down 20 names or whatever).

I worked for an international oil company in Canada and the protocoll was always "Dear Sirs"

Eek! *grabs the semi colon and hides it away in under Eleanor Rigby's skirt*

htf is this sexist?

dear sirs is the way i was "educated" in it and im not the older generation...

Sexist in the fact that we right the Sir before the Madam, as they say Damen before Herren, and ladies come first, apparently..

I also use comma after the address - why does the text then start with a capital letter by the way? shouldn't it, in theory, start with a small letter as its after a comma?

It does in german.

Yup, I agree with ER. So:

Sehr geehrte Damen und Herren,

in Bezug auf...

but in EN:

Dear Sir / Madam,

Please find enclosed...

I know that Riggers, thats why I was wondering why the English version is a bit illogical

I kinda like Riggers

If I'm writing to someone I don't know by name, especially within an organisation, I use 'Dear Sirs' as protocol, with the gender intended as neutral. I figure that, whereas a man couldn't cope with being addressed as 'Madam' , us girls are far more secure and able to shrug off 'Sirs' as nothing more than a formal mode of address, without taking offence.

Moko, I guess I'm too masculine, I do take offence.

Me, too!

Me three.

Sorry, can't read whole thread, but I teach this stuff too. So ...
we write 'Dear Sirs' with an 's' when addressing a company
'Dear Sir or Madam' when addressing an individual like 'The Manager' and don't know what sex
otherwise Dear Mr or Dear Ms.

I myself always write Dear Sir or Madam, cos I hate Dear Sirs and tell this to my students. I'm sure it is acceptable practice. I also tell them to only write Dear Mrs in the context of Dear Mr and Mrs or if writing to a woman who addresses herself in this way, or at least has made it clear she wants everyone to know she's married.

To be honest, although I have to teach the stuff, I don't believe anyone really needs it very often. It only takes one phone-call or email to be on first-name terms with all Americans and Brits.

Lastly @ showem - can you tell me if anyone in the States still uses 'Cordially' ? Sounds unlikely to me??

It would be acceptable, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone write it in practice. 'Sincerely' is more commone, and nowadays some form of 'Regards' or (if email) 'Cheers' is common.