Fur industry and morality

http://www.muchosucko.com/video-howtomakeurownfurcoat.html

Watch this before u ever buy anyone a fur coat

the link is to a little video showing some cute fluffy animals being taken from tiny cages then skinned...horrid indeed.

but important.

Do you use or consume any products which require that another animal be killed?

Good point Jules. The video is not pleasant, but your average chicken is hung upside down and has his throat cut by an electric blade - whilst watching his mates in the line ahead.

Unlike fur, other industries (food, leather, wool) which use animals make sure they're dead first.

In large processing, chickens are normally zapped unconscious as their legs are grabbed and they start going upside down.

woof.

@BD
The point is that animals destined for slaughter are generally-speaking very poorly treated (whether they're minks, chickens, cows, pigs, whatever). Why all the fuss about fur? Is that it's particularly cruel or just particularly expensive and exclusive?

or that the animals with useful fur also tend to look cuter than chickens?

I think it's that the animals are particularly cute. Who cares about that evil looking chicken?
Edit: beat me to it worm

Is there any way of skinning a supermodel?

The point is that animals used for fur are raised under much worse conditions than those for food and they're brutally and cruelly slaughtered. If you didn't click my earlier links, you missed watching a live, conscious animal skinned. Even the ancient Vikings -- hardly known for their compassion -- had the decency to slaughter their animals quickly (non-disgusting, non-graphic pictures).

woof.

I know a bloke who is that very zapper.

AFAIK, fur farmers are not exempt from the anti-cruelty laws that apply to all other farm animals.
"Article 92 in its legal code, called the "Body of Liberties," stated that "No man shall exercise any Tirranny or Crueltie towards any Bruite creature which are usuallie kept for man's use."
Naturally cruel treatment should be prosecuted, regardless of the relative cuteness of said animal.

It's not like I dig animal cruelty, but I have yet to see convincing evidence that animals raised for fur are treated specifically worse than the ones for food/clothing. I think that they both get a pretty raw deal when you think about it. It's not like the videos that I have seen taken in slaughterhouses make me feel any better about eating meat or owning leather clothing to be perfectly honest.

IMHO, the anti-fur lobby has just been extremely successful in marketing the negative aspects of an industry that is out of reach financially for most people thus allowing them to condemn it under the comfy, politically correct pretext that it's particularly cruel and/or unnecessary. The most amusing examples probably being these pea-brained models who'd "rather go naked", but yet again, model leather clothing or eat meat.

I wear and buy fur. In fact, I have worked with SAGA (Saga Furs is a joint marketing organisation formed by the fur breeders in Norway, Finland and Sweden), Fur Council of Canada, and NAFA (North American Fur Auctions). (www.sagafurs.com www.furcouncil.com www.nafa.ca)

I would suggest on educating yourself and then make the decision yourselves on whether or not you would would buy fur or judge others who do.

As well think of these questions: do you real think leather is any better? You dont actually believe that leather is from the cows we use as beef do you? Would you wear sheepskin? All carcusses of the animals (Cows, sheep, mink, foxes) are sold to pet food production. So, if you own a pet...you are equally as guilty fur and leather buyers.

Personally, I have been to fur farms, auctions, tanners, etc.etc...The only fur I will NOT wear is of skins from animals that are protected (seal skins) and fur from China.

Interesting points...

Lots of the things we buy have fur by-products e.g. Angorra (rabbit), Cashmere(Tibetian goat). so do you stop buying sweater/pullovers?

We have no idea how these items are collected, but I would suspect dead animals are involved...

I do believe in "humainly" killing the animals first..

Why not buy faux fur? Washable! Non-allergenic!

@THL, I thought you were wrong about the angora coming from rabbits - I thought it was only taken from Angora goats, but apparently that's mohair, and they do make fabric from the rabbit. Look at this thing! I've never seen a rabbit like that!

But I don't think they usually kill these animals, but shave them, like sheep. Someone else could maybe confirm that though.

Sorry, I love my fur coat! and will continue to wear it. I appreciate others opinions on the matter, but ultimately its my decision.

I grew up on a farm, and we used to hunt and kill and skin ourselves. We raised cows, chickens and pigs, all for slaughter, plus we fished as a job. Not much can turn my stomache.

Now that's a rabbit to rival sin's cat!

The cruelty is that in the vid above, the animals were still living and breathing. Those people should be skinned alive as they are the perpertrators of the horrid practice of not humanely killing the animal.

I have watched the last two Tuesday evenings a great program called 37 degrees. Last week it was a report that the EU does not force fur coats or trim to list the source of the fur. A large percentage is from cats! They dye it to look differently and most people do not know that they are wearing cat fur. But the cruel way they skinned the cats in China was horrible. It showed bags of cats being thrown alive in boiling water... The point was that the EU should force declarations of what animal the fur comes from.

Yesterday's was almost as disturbing. It showed the transport of beef cattle from Sachsen to the South of France and then to Lebanon. Five years ago, they had video of the horrible way the french treated the German cattle. After protestations and EU imposed resrtictions the cattle are treated quite humanely during the trip from Germany to the South of France. Mandatory stops with water and food, ventilated trucks...the driver seemed compassionate and cared well for the cows. This continued until they were transported to Lebanon. Here they hook a rope around one leg of the cow and lift it by crane to a waiting trunk. These cows ahd multiple broken legs and were being forced to limp on these to their slaughter. It ended with the fact that the muslim restricted method of slaughter is to slice the throats without betaubsmittel or unconsicousness.
Horrible images which accompished which they wanted to emphasise. Only with strict legislation and open knowledge are animals treated better when they are used regardless whether they will be for food or fur.

Stone age, man.. I started looking at Parnell's video, but turned it off after about a minute. It seems to be too early still to hope for a animal-consciousness in Asia, shame on Europe for still allowing stuff like that as well!

Regarding the use of fur for coats: those animals don't get killed for their meat such as in the case of normal leather-producing farm animals. They get killed only so that rich women can prance around in it. Their meat gets wasted. That's the big difference. If you want to kill an animal, use all of it. What was that saying? Takes hundreds of dumb animals to make a fur coat and only one to wear it.

I agree completely

http://www.peta.org/mc/factsheet_display.asp?ID=56

Depends, I mean I really don't think they use genital electricution on cattle.

Bollocks the pet food industry does not keep the fur industry alive. Vain bints with selective knowledge and/or acceptance of the facts who put personal appearance above the torture of animals do.


Sounds like a fun day out, still if thre government says its Ok then it must be.

The venom is oozing out slowly but surely - looks like envy and self-righteousness is getting the better of some people...

EDIT: I'm still waiting for someone to provide a reliable source (i.e. not hysterical shit mongers like PETA) that demonstrates that animals that are killed for fur are actually subjected to Mengele-like experimentation on a regular basis and always killed more cruely than cows, pigs, etc..

I don't think any, normal people enjoy seeing animals treated in such a way. Why should animals not be treated with respect as well? They are part of nature as well. Being cruel to animals for the sake of drawing attention to yourself is not a thing that should be encouraged nor supported. That is perverse.

Yes, because everyone who owns fur is a closet Cruella Deville!?
I just think that they have more money, or at least choose to spend it differently than other people. As I said before, anyone who eats any meat or wears any animal skin whatsoever should not be complaining about fur on this thread.

If the owner of the fur would visit a fur farm, see how their coats are being made and still choose to wear them I would think, ok fine, different things for different people. But most people couldn't even be bothered to inform themselves, or rather choose not to know. A fur coat is a fashion item. For this fashion item many animals have to die. That is stupid and perverse IMVHO and I expect more from cultured people with a sizeable brain. We aren't living in caves anymore, we have central heating and materials like wool, goretex etc. to keep us warm. We drive by car and aren't freezing our arses off anymore. So why must so many animals be killed just so that we can show the world what bad taste we have?


1. Freedom of speach, being able to voice your opinion, that is what TT is about.
2. An animal which gets used completely and treated in a fair and respectful manner, giving it propper food and shelter, why not use it? It's mass-production which is the problem.
3. As for myself, I don't eat meat. I don't want them in my belly, no sir.

MB, out of curiousity, have you visited a fur farm and seen how the coats are made? Is this what caused you to choose not to wear them? I mean, you are saying this from an informed point of view, are you not?

I own a fur, and have visited a farm- it was a mink farm, and my coat is Fox, so is that still okay by your standard then?

No mam, I'd go ballistic. I don't think I'd be able to control myself if I have to see those animals being kept like that. I love animals.

I won't wear them because I disagree with the concept of killing animals purely for the sake of fashion. If people chow red meat, keep animals in a respectful way, use the whole animal and not waste them I'll be the last one to complain. They are there to be eaten and it doesn't for instance bother me if other people do eat them. I talk to them though and cannot imagine eating creatures that I talk to.

Informed in which way? Even if you look at the brochures of modern fur farms (yes, I've once looked at that) boasting taking good care of their animals, you will still see these animals behind bars in way too small cages, giving birth to their young, putting the effort into raising their young ones and you know that they don't know that they are putting their efforts into preparing their young ones to be slaughtered for some rich bird to look tartish in. Sorry if I am offensive, but I have never even seen a woman looking good in a fur coat! IMHO they look tartish, the equavalent of the Porsche Cayenne - I have money but no taste so I drive an arse-ugly car that costs a lot of money to show people that I have made it. Ok, that was a bit off topic I must admit. If someone were to live in Alaska or somewhere where it gets frigging cold and they were to wear a fur coat as it's the only way to keep warm I have no problem with that. But just for fashion..

If you have seen the way they make it and feel you still need a fur coat, yeah, at least you got yourself informed. I know you are from Canada and I know it gets pretty cold up there. If you were to have only brought it as a fashion item, well, I wouldn't think it's that cool. But, so what, it's only my opinion. I'd still have a curry with you any day.

I myself have a fur coat, which was given to me. I don't wear it because it makes me look like a gremlin. with shoulder pads. i think if your really going to be anti-fur, then you should consider investigating the sources and treatment of the other animal products that go into your food, your clothing, your sport gear, your skin care products and your medicines. that is simply to say that the fur industry isn't the only industry whose practises can make your stomach churn.

There are definite fingers to point at most animal husbandry practises. for example, the most widely used method of castration for sheep is rubber elastrator bands. (most animals destined for the table: pigs, sheep, and cows are castrated in some cases to improve the meat but for sheep its really a matter of making them easier to handle and to manage the flock production. ) its basic premise is that you cut off the circulation to the bits until they wither and fall off, about a week or two. anesthetic is recommended but its not required and not normally used. the stunning prior to killing by the way is a good thing, but its not a guarantee that the animals will remain "out", just so you know.

I had the good fortune to work for a decent sheep farmer, he ran a good outfit but i saw plenty of others who couldnt give a shit less about the living conditions of their animals. i'm thankful for that experience as it makes me think about the origins of things I eat, wear and use.

While it could be easy to to point a the fur business and to affluent fur wearers, I would personally feel like a right hypocrit if I didn't first seriously assess and adjust my own lifestyle. Its easy to say to someone don't wear fur, but its not so easy to cut the meat from my diet, wear plastic shoes, or to remove all those animal tested medicines and products from my shelves. There may be different degrees of cruelty, but its still cruelty, no matter how "humane" the practises may be.

as much as I love cats I must say, the argument is the same as the one why it's ok to wear leather, in that cats are also eaten in Asia..

Which goes back to the argument that if you eat meat, what is wrong with eating cats and dogs?

because it's gross.

What, eating cats and dogs is gross? Why any more so than eating pigs? And the pet argument doesn't cut it for me as pigs make excellent pets as well.

If you eat meat then why not all meat unless you don't like the taste?

However, I digress - anybody wearing fur, be it fake or genuine immediately makes me think of Marlene from Only Fools and Horses although this is probably only relevant for Brits.

Jules , normally you're my boy but you are so far out on this matter...

As a farm boy myself I can attest to the almost painless (but no doubt fearful) death of thousands of animals - sheep and cattle in various abbatoirs. One of our neighbours brought some of his cattle to a Hal-Al butcher once - and after witnessing their method of slaughter swore that he would never subject his animals to that again.

Point being if it came to it , once you're dead you're just meat - it's the manner by which you die that is the point. I know about cruelty to chickens - and I amn't too enamoured by that but chickens are a lot lower down the pile than foxes , mink etc.

Exactly why I refused to help out at home with this practice and didnt want to be a vet - the reason for doing it in cattle is same as sheep - bull beef is much leaner and healthier - the lambs basically collapse on the ground , writhe in pain and get up again only to collapse again after a few steps. I loved the cattle on my parents farm but I would have nothing to do with putting an animal in pain. Absolutely awful awful practice - that and dehorning.

Good post, JML, very well put. I ate red meat until the first time I visited a farm (am a city girl). They didn't warn me and I walked past a shed where they were just busy slaughtering a sheep. I fainted. From that day (I was 17) I stopped having red meats. This is quite some time ago. That's why I believe that a general awareness is necessary and if you still think it's ok, fine, everybody is different.

As to eating cats and dogs.. I don't know. I love cats most and the thought of people eating cat disturbs me a lot, still I realise that saying it's ok to eat a cow but not a cat is being daft and hypocritical...

My best female friend in S.A. had a pet calf called Chester. Her arsehole-husband (he has died in an accident in the meantime) - a farmer - surprised her one night at dinner with having prepared Chester for her while she was out for the day. Must I mention that she went ballistic? But had it been her cat, would she have reacted with more sorrow? I have photos here in Munich which she send me taking walks with Chester like a dog and she reported him being very intelligent, like a dog. So you see, this is a very difficult topic to discuss. If I were to eat red meats though it would never be any animal which is even moderately intelligent. This is also not a very ethically valid criteria, but I think that's how I'd choose.

Sorry, but this just reminds me of the simposons episode where Homer befriends and cares for a lobster and eventually cooks and eats him.. he cries and moans in delight at the same time. Sorry, but it made me giggle a little.

The argument is true, it's just a culture thing. Indians won't eat cow, just like we wouldn't eat cat. At the end of the day humans rule the world and animals don't have a choice, which is sad.

I think you're disgusting - please educate me as to why I should not think that. The carcusses used for pet food are usually sourced in the country of origin - how do I know this ? Because we have given several (already dead animals) to the "knackers" responsible for such production - a token payment is normally made. Europe already produces far too much beef - the offal judged not fit for human consumption is sent to the pet food manufacturers. The slaughtering process in the food industries is pretty strictly monitored in Ireland - no doubt it is at least the same in Germany.

I speed scanned this and read cat instead of calf. It still didn't surprise me much which may be because:

1. I have some funny ideas about South Africans.
2. I have some funny ideas about cats.
3. On TT I'm prepared to encounter life in all it's forms
4. I've eaten too much irish beef before the BSE warnings.
5. Not enough espresso today.

Anyway I nearly wet myself when I read MoiLV's post and realised it was a calf.

Bummer, missed that episode.

Can you explain what that has to do with anything? How does being less intelligent or further down the food chain in any way justify cruelty? As far as I'm concerned if the entity has a nervous system it has the capacity to suffer.

I eat meat because I strongly believe as a human it is necessary for me to do so. I don't wear fur but I do wear leather shoes therefore I'm as guilty of using the head in sand approach as any fur wearer.

@Yeti

Funny ideas about South Africans? I'll not go into that now but feel free to elaborate.

My opinion is that most of the posters are not upset about fur, meat or leather products. What bothered me and I believe is wrong is the cruel manner of slaughter. If the animals were painlessly killed, I would not be upset about it...maybe a bit...but the creul manner of skinning an animal which can feel pain and fear is horrible.

@Majorbummer

It's only in there as a option, I have funny ideas about lots of things. However if you really need something I'll give it some thought.

@Miss Rigby

I did write that I believe it not to be an ethically valid criteria and I can't explain where this comes from myself. It's just, animals with a higher intelligence are closer to us humans and I guess that's where my notion originates from. It's an evolutionary thing, we normally tend not to eat the animals closer to us genetically (like apes). From apes it's down to the next most intelligent animal, then to the next and the next.. If you were to take my line of thought from the opposite direction in the intelligence-scalar, it would be easier for me(theoretically) to eat an animal which just managed to creep out of the primordial soup in comparison to one which is close to me in some way, i.e. closer in the intelligence which we humans can understand. I realise this is not right, but if I had to choose it would rather be an animal which is obviously seriously daft.

Take a goldfish - its memory is so short that it cannot experience love or other emotions that higher phyla can - I have seen cattle and sheep do this - and no I'm not projecting human emotions onto these animals - I've seen it first hand - as I've seen just how how stupid and hopeless chickens are. As I said I'm not too enamoured about them suffering but I consider the gulf between a chicken and say a cow to be roughly equivalent to a dog and a human child.

Eating meat is not neccessary as a human being - millions of vegetarians prove this.

As I have pointed out earlier leather is different , at least in Europe - the raw product is practically free so there is no need to import. (We already produce far far far too much beef).
Cattle (other than Hal-Al and kosher slaughter) are killed in the EU using a "humane killer" - this is a retractable metal bolt which is placed on the animal's forehead. Press the trigger and it penetrates the skull killing the animal instantly and painlessly - not a bad way for euthanasia if you ask me.

You know, it would be an interesting experiment to have people eat the animals they *specifically* don't like. Me, I'm against cats. I know they are out to take over the world in a manner involving mind control over the other two animals I don't like, squirrels and pidgeons.

I think that some sort of cat, squirrel, pidgeon stew would put me off meat for good.

ps: fyi: blinding chickens is an animal husbandry practise used to keep chickens from beating on each other, and making them easier to handle. it generally involves slicing the eyeballs. some guy tried to introduce chicken contacts but it didn't take. the concept, not the contacts. the contacts worked fine.