Depression rates in Germany are quite high

Watched a Horizon programme on TV last night about Omega-3 fatty acids. My son has some attention deficit problems and we have him on fish oil tablets - as they can do no harm. 10% of the brain is made of this stuff they said!!!

Chap called Hebbiln did research into the possible link between fish consumption and depression rates around the world. (fish is a major source of Omega-3). The graph is shown below.

It is not in any way conclusive, but I don't think there is enough fish eaten around these parts, although Tuna is a good enough source and I eat plenty of that myself.

can you get Omega-3 from any other foods, or just fish?

Personally I think the lack of sunlight here in Munich has a lot to do with rates of depression. I have no idea what the rates of Seasonal Affective Disorder are here but I'd imagine them to be quite high as well.

The fish thing is interesting, I've never heard that before. Although the graph is majorly skewed and doesn't take into account several other variables.

Well, it's known that the Scandinavian countries have high depression rates and they eat shitloads of fish. Don't think it makes up for lack of sunlight...

As a vegetarian I never eat fish and I think the last time I was depressed was probably sometime during my teens.

The graph could also indicate that people from the Far East are less likely to suffer from depression.

I think there are several factors to consider. There is also a correlation between sunlight and depression, which tends to affect people living in the more northern areas. Also, with the lack of Summer this year, I predict higher levels of depression this Winter in Germany than usual.

I am also suspicious of this graph as it lists Japan as having a low depression rate. They have a very high suicide rate, so does that mean that since they kill themselves, they no longer count in the depression rate???

St John's Wort, or Johanneskraut, is the German Hausartz's first solution for mild depression or seasonal disorder.

There are about 4mio. (?) Germans on this prescription at the moment.

This is just an irrelevant fact. In Blighty a good GP always asks if someone is taking "regular exercise" before dishing out pills - natural or otherwise.

Don't quite see what depression and attention deficit disorder have to do with depression tho. JE?

omega3 only comes from fish, i believe - but you can take tablets

here's the "healing kitchen" depression page
lots of nice recipes that might help to counteract depression

AIE, correct me if I'm wrong but different social stigma is attached to suicide in Japan which is not necessarily linked to depression.

I thought suicide was considered a respectable way to end ones life in Japan.

MTV, does St. John's Wort come in pill form? I've only ever seen it as a non-prescribtion tea.

you can't beat some hardcore anti-depressants and a good shrink if you're seriously depressed. feeling a 'bit low' is pretty normal at times, life is a stressful bastard for most people and some of the ideas above could help. certainly exercise is important and avoid too much alcohol, it's a sneaky depressant which works in more than just the 'screaming gin fit' way.

Actually, very few depressed people ever commit suicide. They talk about it a lot, but they rarely do it. Exercise is very good against depression. Going for a run, etc.

feeling suicidal is a symptom of depression
doesn't mean you have to actually do it
if you're seriously depressed the last thing you want to do is go for a run, ime

blimey, its positively beaming and bright here compared to Scandinavia. Everything is relative I guess

Yes, suicidal ideation is a main symptom of clinical depression but I'm quite sure that depression is also the main cause of suicide, at least in western societies.

@ topsy, if you're feeling depressed (and i mean truly depressed) the last thing you want to do is anything. the exercise thing is for those who are feeling a bit down in the dumps but still in control. treating depression yourself is all about recognising the symptoms before things get too bad. the problem for a depressive is that they quite like that feeeling of descending into a lethargic, desperate state, which is why depression is so difficult to treat and for those without it, to understand.

My point exactly. Although I've read that rates of depression are extremely low amoung the Canadian Inuit who are exposed to less sunlight than anywhere else on the planet. Which only goes to say that societal influences do have a large impact on psychological disorders.

The problem with depressives is that they're like alcoholics in that they don't realise that they're sick. They quite literally have to hit rock bottom before they go to seek help. You can tell them as much as you want to go see someone, they just don't listen.

2 points - St John's Wort - it can stop The Pill working, so be careful and get advice from your doctor.

Secondly, Japan has a huge rate of suicide, which mostly comes from high-pressure in society to succeed, long school/working hours etc. For me, suicide = depression, so I can't understand why it's so low on this chart.

careful here if taking the birth control pill. not you specifically Vic, but it cancels out the effects and if you're depressed, is getting pregnant a good idea?

That is 100% correct. I agree-

Eleanor - sure St John's Wort comes in tablets. My little bro' swears by them, but I stopped after a few months. Look somewhere like Müller? Certainly in London you can get huge bottles of it at Holland & Barrett.

Ulysees - you really do come up with some highly informed crackers don't you??

Re: exercise . . . of COURSE getting out and doing exercise is the last thing a depressed person wants to do! But endorphines are the bodies natural opiates. they are really really powerful. That's why I run so much. I'm addicted. I've got depression all through my family (and some resulting suicides as well, Ulysees!).

It is quite amazing what even a brisk walk in fresh air can do for someone feeling really down. Try and drag whomever is suffering out the house. Beats Prozac.

Incorrect. It is also present in rapeseed oil, nuts, especially walnuts etc. A bit of googling will find you more sources, although the programme stressed that it occurs in different forms, and that the forms I mentioned are harder for the body to use. Oily fish is the best/easiest natural source.

You can of course buy fish oil tablets which is what I give my son.

Seasonal Affective Disorder:
Well at the risk of the dreaded self-promotion I actually sell therapy lights on my website here:

http://www.androv-medical.com/product.php/6/1/ - this is 10,000 LUX

and the smaller lights here:

http://www.androv-medical.com/product.php/17/1/ - lower LUX (brightness) but also includes some UV light.

Do they work? I don't know but more reading here:

http://www.priory.com/psych/SAD.htm

http://www.aafp.org/afp/980315ap/saeed.html


I did send one to a mate of mine in the UK and he said:


I sell enough of these to be honest, I don't need the extra business from TT'ers, so it's not a big old plug. But if a few people think they wanna try one out - I will just send the first a unit free, and you can post your opinions here, and then pass it around to the others to try.

As it happens I am low on stocks of the unit shown below, and will run out very shortly until my next shipment in early November.

i don't agree with that, not at all
there is nothing to like about it
maybe you're used to it, and you feel comfortable with it, it's what you know
but you don't like it
how can you like feeling that you're worthless, and that your whole life is pointless?

Over-thinking often leads to depression and it is known that women are twice as likely as men to become depressed. There are various hypotheses why the incidence of depression is so high these days as opposed to 20 years ago. One of the reasons put forward is the increase in the complexity of life. Basically, we just don't have any real problems anymore like surviving a war or something. Nothing to keep ourselves occupied so we start to think about the meaning of life,etc.

Well the Omega-3 fatty acids are being touted as a bit of a fix-all really. Theory is that in kids it helps concentration, reading, writing etc etc. A teacher did her own major trials in the programme, which did seem to indicate good improvements against the placebo group (who took a fishy tasting placebo pill).

Also strongly indicated to assist with heart disease - they give to heart attack patients etc.

I am anti giving my kids pills generally - but fish oil can do no harm.

Personally I think depression is pretty much a chemical imbalance in the brain. There are days when you can handle any problems and laugh them off, and other days when dropping a piece of toast on the floor can you have you almost in tears. I think fresh air, sunlight, exercise, laughing, all assist by increasing the endorphin levels but the root problem is a chemical one.

JE, I spent an entire semester researching SAD and I found several studies that (to varying degrees) confirmed the effectiveness of light therapy.

this statement has been paid for by JE

hi topsy, please read the end of my final sentence, i know it's difficult to understand. it's like a form of mental masochism. ever heard the phrase 'wallowing in your own self-pity'? pretty damn accurate. i assure you i've been there, and having been unemployed for the past 4-5 months, i'm using all the tricks in the book to avoid ending up back there.

Studies say that you need the sunlight INTO your eyes - it has nothing to do with sunbeds, or getting sunlight via your skin. The 10,000 LUX lights are not allowed any UV light, so has nothing to do with Vitamin D production etc.

I am generally a sceptic about anything that sounds "alternative" myself, but it kinda makes sense that our bodies are used to getting more natural sunlight up to say 100 years ago. And I know how jetlag can screw my body rhythms.

@MTV

I didn't mean to sound callous regarding going out and exercising wrt depression. I spent most of the beginning of this year really depressed mainly because myself and my manically depressed girlfriend broke up. I went running everyday and it worked like a bomb. In fact, I went through similar patches at uni and school and realised now that running pulled me through every time. Getting back to this year, I needed to understand what was wrong with my ex and read a shitload up on the subject. It's scary to say the least and the worst part is that so many people are ignorant of the issue and how prevalent and close to home it can be. I am not depressed, but I have cared for someone who was and know women suffering from bulimia which I consider similar. Everyone I know combats it through regular exercise. They all swear by therapy actually rather than taking Prozac or St. John's Wort.

Correct but I don't consider there to be anything alternative about light therapy.

As with all psychological disorders, you will have a chemical/biological predisposition which will be affected positively or negatively by a behavioral component. You CAN influence the behavioral component yourself in various ways as stated above. The chemical (depending on the severity) will have to be treated with medication.

A combination of behavioral and pharmacological treatment is most effective for treating clinical depression.

Personally, I just whistle a happy tune until all my worries float away.

Yes, there are 2 main reasons for suicide in Japan. One is social, i.e. someone who embarrases his family/group by failing at career, whatever, and the second is depression from burnout (i.e. career man) or social victimization, i.e. a student badgered by all their peers.

Disclaimer: I ain't no expert.

isnt depression just a figment of the imagination?

Not a good subject to troll on.

schotte, back off on that one. i get the feeling there is more than just one person online here with very personal experience of this.

its not always as bad as it has been the last 12 months (which have admittedly been very bad as far as actual sunlight is concerned). Compared to where I used to live Munich usually has much higher levels of sunlight. The air is cleaner, no smog, less haze etc etc.

The start of the dull/bad weather coincided with your arrival here in Munich, I believe, Eleanor

We've already had this discussion incl. trolls about depression!

that's nice for you UA, perhaps some people missed it the first time.

This is a good book to read related to this subject:

Women Who Think Too Much: How to Break Free of Overthinking and Reclaim Your
Life, Susan Nolen-Hoeksema.

I don't think you can pin it all on a bit of overthinking to be honest

i get really annoyed when i read these articles on research.Things like: "bread crumbs cause cancer", "women with brown hair less likey to suffer ovarian cancer", " jury still out on women with brown hair who eat bread crumbs", " we need more funding says cancer bread research expert"

fish oil levels may be a factor in depression.

however, like most things in life its a combination of several if not hundreds of factors that lead to the end result. unfortunately we live in a world thats constantly trying to define things in black and white. - " if you take fish oil every day you will never be depressed!". "bullshit" you can take all the fish oil you like, but if your wife has just left you or your suffering from the flu your omega3 3 levels will mean jack shit. and your going to mope around the house listening to your " love songs from the 70's" cd.

i would say the biggest factor in depression is social connectedness. but im not an expert. my time is taken up researching bread crumbs.

actually i wasnt trying to troll on this occasion just something i read a while ago but since i dont have something to back it up with i will remove myself from this thread...

The book doesn't maintain that depression is caused exclusively by overthinking. It just says that overthinking is a common cause of depression. The book goes into how changes in society in the last half-century have led to an increase in incidence of overthinking and therefore depression and also how different people react differently to external stimuli and how that in turn affects whether they become depressed or not. Getting on with your life and stopping wallowing in your own pity are explained and described in vivid detail.

schotte, in that case, perhaps it was referring to the idea that all impressions, feelings, emotions, thoughts are imaginary, in the sense that they occur in our minds. however, these imaginings have a powerful effect upon chemical levels in the brain which in turn affect these 'imaginings'. and round and round we go!! very, very complex area of dicussion as we only know about a tiny percentage of the brain and psychology is really just theory and testing.

I know we have had a previous thread on the subject, but like re-opening a murder case I think the Omega-3 is potential new evidence.

Dunno how much it can help - but if eating some more fish, or some fish oil pills can pull someone out of depression then great - its a simple thing to try. They had a London based clinical pyschologist who treated a teenage "Patient X" and said that within weeks the effects were excellent etc.

Eating some fish pills, and sitting in front of a bright light for 15 minutes a day might just work for some people.

Story of my life OG.

right, i'm off to chew on a fishfinger and sit in the garden staring at that weird golden orb in the sky that has returned to watch over us recently.

Don't forget your sunglasses, you don't want to damage your retinas

Funny that Eleanor Rigby is taking part in this forum...I wonder where Father McKenzie must be...

I believe Father McKenzie is writing the words to a sermon that no one will hear but I could be wrong.

You can never have too many cats!

I think it was good you posted this about Omega 3, but didn't see it as a good basis for people to suddenly start saying that depression doesn't exist, or trying to define depression. Discussing the studies are fair enough though imho, since that's the topic.