Denied Hartz IV - Documents needed for ALG I - Germany

Told I first am obligated to apply for ALG I

Pages: 1 2 3 4

PullUpBar
Hi,

I went to the Job Center today and I was denied Hartz IV (ALG II) because my job ends in a week and I am currently employed.

I was told that I need to first apply for Arbeitslosengeld I.

Apparently, you cannot simply choose to apply for Hartz IV upon the cessation of employment, but must first apply for ALG I even if you don´t want to.

I wanted to apply directly for Hartz IV because I have heard that the documentation requirement is less onerous.

Which brings me to my main query: What documents am I required to bring to the Agentur für Arbeit?

Any answers will be much appreciated.
El Jeffo
Your profile says you're American - do you have dual citizenship? How long have you been here and how long did you have your job?

The answers to these questions are relevant in determining whether you're eligible for any benefits at all, or whether applying them will result in them canceling your visa (was it tied to the one employer?) and sending you home.

You're supposed to notify the Agentur für Arbeit as soon as you learn that you're going to be out of work. If you only just notified them this week, this may result in a penalty or delay in your benefits (if you are indeed entitled to receive them).
Conquistador
If you are eligible for ALG I, you don't want to skip right to ALG II, and given that ALG II is means-tested, I have a hard time believing that the paperwork for it is simpler than for ALG I.
PullUpBar
Thanks for the replies.

I am a German citizen so maybe that will help me somewhat. I have been working at the same employer for more than twelve months.

I have been reading a bit, and I will most likely suffer a Sperrzeit because I quit my job for no reason. I am also applying more than three days after my resignation notice was handed in.

I found a list of the documents I need: Reisepass, Sozialversicherungsausweis, Lohnsteuerkarte, Arbeitsbescheinigungen Ihrer früheren Arbeitgeber.

It wasn´t only that I thought that there would be more paperwork associated with applying for ALG I; I also recognized that applying for ALGI meant that I would have to endure the application process all over again once my entitlement to it ran out.
Conquistador
You should be aiming a lot higher than simply expecting to go on Hartz IV a year from now. Unless things are done differently in Berlin than they are in Munich you will be required to apply to a certain amount of jobs while collecting ALG I.
rockfisher
I was told that I need to first apply for Arbeitslosengeld I. Apparently, you cannot simply choose to apply for Hartz IV upon the cessation of employment, but must first apply for ALG I even if you don´t want to.
If you've paid into the system for more than one year then you are entitled to a a year of Arbeitslosengeld. Why would you want Hartz IV if you are not yet long term unemployed? Are you a masochist?
Illic
I also recognized that applying for ALGI meant that I would have to endure the application process all over again once my entitlement to it ran out.
Same with Hartz4.
countryboy81
As for what I was told at the arbeitsamt, you cant just quit your job and then expect them to pay you. You need to be fired or at least have a very good reason for quitting. While collecting money you will have to turn in at least 3 (it used to be 3 dont know if theve changed it) applications to companys a week and get a stamp from them that you were there for vorstellungsgesprach. Why dont you just look for another job. Not trying to be rude but hartzIV leute piss me off.
the.frollein
There are several reasons why this thread strikes a chord with me... and not necessarily in a good way.

First of all: You were not *denied* Hartz IV (also known as ALG II). You are not eligible for ALG II, the rules are such that benefits for newly unemployed are through ALG I (usually a period of 12 months) and then - assuming you can't find employment and ALG I comes to an end - ALG II steps in.

I agree with Conquistador, I think you need to aim a lot higher than going for ALG II. During ALG I, you will be expected to regularly show proof of searching for a job. AFAIK this holds true for ALG II as well, although not with quite the same pressure from the Arbeitsagentur.

And for those like countryboy81, who feel pissed off by Hartz IV... yes, there are black sheep, as anywhere in life. They piss me off too. However, please keep in mind there are also quite a few people on Hartz IV through no fault of their own. I am very thankful that I managed to find a job after a period on ALG I - but because of my age and background, it could easily have gone to ALG II.
dessa_dangerous
I was told that I need to first apply for Arbeitslosengeld I. Apparently, you cannot simply choose to apply for Hartz IV upon the cessation of employment, but must first apply for ALG I even if you don´t want to.
here is a bit of help/insight that you should really take to heart. WHAT YOU "WANT" IS NOT IMPORTANT TO THEM. Get that into your head and do not forget it, because you will only make things more difficult even in the near-term. Walk into the office telling them what you "want" and you will find more restrictions and demands put on you than you can imagine.

There is a very specific process that they follow because, surprise surprise, ALG II is supposed to be a) a last resort and b) as temporary as possible. Everything that is done in that office after you've begun to receive benefits is meant to get you off of benefits.

Getting back to point A: You must do everything you can not to apply for ALG II because you do not have to pay it back and it is, basically, free money. You must apply for ALG I for the obvious reason that it is money you've contributed for this reason. After applying for ALG I you must apply for BaFög if applicable and so must anybody in your living unit, even if they/you do not "want" to. After all other options have been exhausted and you cannot be deported or sent back to your country of origin and it is clear that you must either receive benefits or sleep on the streets, you will get your ALG II.

"Wanting to save on paperwork" is not an acceptable reason for applying for the free money straight off the bat. Give me a break.



I wanted to apply directly for Hartz IV because I have heard that the documentation requirement is less onerous.
no idea where you got this from. ALG II requires a fuckload of a lot more time, paper, energy and humiliation.

Which brings me to my main query: What documents am I required to bring to the Agentur für Arbeit?
They will tell you what you need to bring. There is not a lot of point getting the information from us, even if we could tell you what you will need in your specific case (we cannot) because they will give you a suitable amount of time to gather your documents. ALG II can take a long time to get; up to a couple of months to see a penny, if you don't have to apply for emergency benefits that is.

The stupid thing is how long and complicated the procedure is; you'd think they'd make it less laborious if they didn't want people staying on it forever. After doing the amount of work taken to get on it most people feel entitled to collect it for a while. Stupid. "Easy come, easy go" would serve better in these cases, I think...
the.frollein
here is a bit of help/insight that you should really take to heart. WHAT YOU "WANT" IS NOT IMPORTANT TO THEM.
There is a very specific process that they follow because, surprise surprise, ALG II is supposed to be a) a last resort and as temporary as possible. Everything that is done in that office after you've begun to receive benefits is meant to get you off of benefits.
"Wanting to save on paperwork" is not an acceptable reason for applying for the free money straight off the bat. Give me a break.
Thanks Dessa, all and exactly what I wanted to say, but am nowhere near articulate enough to... erm... articulate.
chris999
I felt really sorry for the OP having to fill in a few forms - so I thought I'd give angela a ring.

She says she is also really sorry that you are been inconvenienced and having to fill in lots of forms after you decided to quit your job is simply too much to ask.

She will get on to the department immediately and tell them it's not acceptable in a modern germany. She will change things so that anybody can simply walk in and collect lots of euros without needing to fill in anything.

hope that helps
dessa_dangerous
frollein, I'd guess it's more to do with experience than articulation... mine as well as those of people I have known.

I literally broke down and cried in the office when I learned I would not be eligible for ALG I although I had done years of honest work in this country (will spare you the details). Applying for ALG II was one of the most heartbreaking and humiliating experiences I have gone through in my adult life. Why anyone would want to deliberately put themselves through it is not necessarily a mystery, just a testament to their never having had to do it. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who values their self-esteem and has any other possible options.
countryboy81
Yes I understand that some people actually need and have earned Hartz IV. With those I have no problem. What I have a problem with is the other 75% that are just to lazy to work, and why wouldnt they be? They get paid for nothing. Most of those have never held a job in their entire life! What confuses me is that they still all have big screen tvs and drive big mercedes and whatnot. These are the ones that piss me off. When I go to work 15 hours a day and still have to struggle to pay bills. If the state paid my rent I wouldnt have problems either. Maybe I just have a different mindset when it comes to earning what you get in life. At the end of the day when I look at all that Ive achieved in life. I can honestly say that I worked my ass off for it. To some that is important.
the.frollein
frollein, I'd guess it's more to do with experience than articulation... mine as well as those of people I have known.
Thanks for your comments, Dessa. No need to elaborate, I've been in tears at the Arbeitsagentur myself and felt mortified beyond belief more times than I can remember. And that was just the painful and - for me completely unexpected - end to my last job and the ALG I rigamarole. But the fear of moving into ALG II haunted me mightily and I feel very fortunate that it didn't get that far.

... What confuses me is that they still all have big screen tvs and drive big mercedes and whatnot. These are the ones that piss me off.
No quibbles at all with your mindset about an honest day's work and so on... but do you really think ALL those living on Hartz IV (with the exception of the 25%) have "big screen tvs and drive big mercedes and whatnot"? Black sheep, hell yes. Sweeping generalizations, puh-leeze. Just... no.
Pages: 1 2 3 4
TT Logo
You are viewing a low fidelity version of this page. Click to view the full page.