Does learning German make a big difference...

I was curious if learning German (to a decent, but not fluent level) makes any difference in the way one is treated in Germany? For example, is it easier to make friends, connect with people, and generally feel more at home?

Because speaking no German, I really found the Germans to be on the surface quite rude and cold. The Danes, Norwegians, and Swedes seemed so much friendlier to me, I was amazed at the difference. But I wonder how much of that is culture and how much of it is simply the language barrier.

Thanks.

On the second point it is possibly becasue Scandinavians tend to be more confident in speaking English and becuase I guess their societies are more democratic than Germany ie less hierachichal and boundary building than Germany.

On the first pont: YES.
Life in Germany is a LOT different when you can speak the language.
You can go to pubs with cheaper beer for a start!

depends how much you want to fit in. Of course you can most likely get by without German. However I like to hear what the local news is and what is going on so feel I am missing out on the 'full experience' if I don't learn

Also, it depends on how long you are staying but if you are staying for a reasonable length of time then I think deciding not to learn at all says something about one's attitude

When you say learning - you don't necessarily have to go to classes, I find it difficult not to pick up some of the language whilst here

and as to your comment about Scandinavians - well they seem to have a strange love of all things Anglo-Saxon - which I'm not sure is such a good think, plus I suppose your average Scandinavian may speak better english than your average German, but thats a generalisation

I have found that the Scandinavians really do seem to be into anglo-saxon things. For example, almost all of the ones I met were really interested in talking with me and fairly easy to get to know.

I found the very opposite in Germany, but again, the language barrier was just too much to overcome.

I'll learn the language wherever I end up, but I'm just not sure what place would be more hospitable and accepting in the long-run?

I'm looking at somewhere in Northern Germany, like Bremen or Hamburg, or somewhere in Norway (like Oslo) or Sweden (like Goteborg or Helsingborg), to spend a few years in.

I'm gonna recommend against that. Bremen kinda sucks, at least compared to Munich.

I agree with DW. Bremen has a few nice parts like Schnoor (I think it's spelled like that) but it doesn't compare to Munich overall.

As to whether learning German makes a difference, I think that's a silly question. Of course you are treated better if you can speak the local language. The same is true in Sweden also (I've just spent a year there). Sure the difference with Sweden is that more locals can speak English to a high level but they still really appreciate when you speak Swedish. The question is as pointless as a broken pencil as this would be the case anywhere.

Hey keydeck,

So which country/culture/people do you generally prefer, Sweden or Germany?

Just curious what you found the pros and cons of each place to be.

Thanks.

< I'm gonna recommend against that. Bremen kinda sucks, at least compared to Munich >

True, but Hamburg's nice. I find that most Scandinavia cities tend to feel a little provincial (probably because they are rather small in terms of population). The mentality in Hamburg is similar to Scandinavia (at least that's my impression, from a Bavarian point of view), but at the same time the city is more "cosmopolitan" overall.

i've never lived here and not been able to speak german, so i can't compare the two...
although i will say that i am sometimes shocked by some of the comments on TT about how rude and unfriendly etc the germans are.
i don't find them unfriendly at all.

Oslo is pretty easy by all accounts - I know two people there, one Brit and one German. The German friend says it must be easier living as a foreigner in Oslo than in Germany because everyone speaks English from a very early age, so there just isn't as much of a barrier.

By the way, what do you mean "on the surface"? If you dig deeper you'll find the Germans are rude! Or maybe I mean "blunt". No. I'm not feeling polite. I mean rude. And it is rubbing off on me.

It's the same with any culture; learn the language, and you learn how the people think. How they phrase things is obviously different to how we phrase things, their choice of words in sayings, they way they emphasise certain things. Knowing all this helps to look into the population's way of thinking.

my 2 cents worth... I love the Scandanvian countries! They love to party, and have such a sense of humour, that, after being here 8 years, I have not found! I would love to work there! Although I think the languages would be hard to learn, I would love the chance to learn them. I do go to Finland every winter for a drinking, sauna weekend... and find them the most intersting culture I know.

When I first moved to Germany,on holiday, the first people I came in contact with had no problem speaking to me in English. But as soon as it was known that I was going to stay in the country and work they told me straight out "...from now on we do not speak English to you anymore. If you live and work in our country you will learn to speak our language.."

I think they did the right thing. It was tough at first, but slowly I learnt. Hell, you can get on a bus, go shopping, ask directions, order food...everything... I honestly don't know how I would have been able to live in Germany without speaking the language.

So my advice is to try to learn...it'll pay dividends.

But as someone who is learning...I can honestly say that 8 out of 10 times I try to order food, ask directions, book appointments, etc. in German...the people I am speaking with lapse into English. So not all Germans abide by that 'you live in our country' ideal.

zB:

Other day eating in a small Italian place in Gräfelfing. Second time we have been there. We order in German, everything is fine. We say 'Bezahlen bitte' at the end...server is like 'Oh you want to pay right?' in English. Then he gives me the amount in English.

This is only one of many examples. Now that is not to say that I find it rude...just frustrating that when I really try to speak the language...it doesn't get responded to well...and it does nothing for one's confidence level I am from Canada...a land of a cultural mosaic...many many cultures and languages...and when people try to speak English to me I certainly try to help them out with it.

There was a thread about this phenomenom before - Germans speaking English to you. I can honestly say that it NEVER happens to me. Never has. Granted, I spend most of my time outside of the city centre, but still. The only Gerrys that speak Englsih to me are ones where I have requested an English service (normally medical situations when I had not been here long)

I agree with Keydeck, that obviously speaking some lingo will help, but frankly, however fluent you are, Germany is much more closed that other countries. Also been done to death on other threads, but simply walking into a bar, and expecting some random banter with strangers is just not that common here.

People replying to you in English when you speak German is a phase, as you are getting better at the language. Germs think they are helping you ... just keep speaking German and you will find it gets better.

I 100% agree with the last point. Been here 18 months and certainly got a little frustrated at first when I spoke German and they replied in English.

Now my German is better - and I speak in a faster and more confident manner so it happens much less (they dont dare unless they are sure that their English will be better than your German).

Was in a shop the other day chatting for 10 mins in German, the guy asked if I was Dutch, then later in the conversation we switched to English but mainly 'cos he wanted to test his English...so it bothers you much less.

Next problem - when you speak a little better they assume you understand EVERYTHING so they talk faster and also use slang - then its back to square one for me!!!

I disagree with most everybody, I don't find the Germans any friendlier speaking the language. In fact people are often much more helpful if they know you're an auslaender.

Anytime I need directions or help with something I put on an accent and find them much more willing to go out of their way rather than assuming I should just know better.

That's what I was afraid of.

What kind of accent do you mean silva?

It can never hurt to learn the language of the country where you're living. They won't be friendlier with you, but you're not doing it for them - you are doing it for yourself! It's better to understand and it's better to know what all they are saying to and about you.

Oh.
For some reason I read this as "Dogs learning German make a big difference."

I can't help but feel dissapointed now.

Maybe because it's actually 'zahlen, bitte', not bezahlen

I agree with Silva on the whole and to some extent with Topsy. The Germans are polite and friendly and helpful to wandering tourists and newcomers - quite a relief after my experiences in Italy. They are also friendly in a superficial way to German-speakers who ask for information - in fact on one occasion one driver actually turned on his navigation system and told me to follow him when I was lost in the suburbs. But no amount of German gets rid of the bluntness of the shop assistants, "friends" who summon the waiter without asking me if I also want another drink and the fact that no-one puts the kettle on. This is how they are and how they treat each other. Fluent German just makes you one of them.

I honestly can't understand why someone would want to live in a foreign country and not try to learn at least some of the language. How can you even understand the place and the people of that country without trying to learn their language? Someone please help me out with this quote...I know I don't have it 100% correct, but it's something like:

"to speak another language is to have another soul"

Anyway, the point is, it is 10000% more rewarding to speak or to even try to learn the local language. Even if that language is German and the fact that you've learned it means that you are sometimes mistaken for...a German.

I don't want to sound all high and mighty because I'm fluent in German. I know people who didn't become fluent in German, because they just had trouble learning another language. Everyone has different skills. However, the fact that they could read some signs, and basically understand most of what was said helped them immensely. Also, when people see that you are trying, you come off as less of an arrogant English-speaker. Even if they immediately switch to English, they still register that you have made an attempt to speak their language.

This question (as recently noted in another thread making fun of the newcomers) has been asked again and again on the forum. So, I will take this opportunity to answer it. Learn German! It helps! All of the words!! Some grammar too!

I like being one of them then.
I'd also pick Hamburg over Bremen and would also add that you're very close to Copenhagen by train and also thus to Sweden via the Malmö bridge.

I've been in Köln for about 8 months, and I haven't had any of the problems with Germans that people are describing. I've heard Köln is a bit more laid back than most other cities, so maybe that's part of it.

All of my colleagues and others I've met have been very friendly and helpful. Without them, it would have been nearly impossible to do all the things I needed when I first arrived, like getting my visa and finding and furnishing a flat. It is still takes a bit of time to start going out with people socially, but I don't find it any worse than trying to break into any other place where everyone already has their lives built up. Of course there are certain customs that I'm still not used to, like giving three days notice before visiting someone.

My colleagues also said at one point that they would only speak German to me, but it wasn't an ultimatum or a demand that I conform. It was only after they knew I was trying to learn that they said it to help me out. It would be a lot easier for them to use English than to suffer through my German.

I haven't chatted with strangers sitting around in pubs or bars either, but besides in a few specific places, that wouldn't happen in Canada either.

I've found a lot of variety in what people do when they hear my uncertain German. Some patiently wait for me to speak German. Some brush me off. Some switch to English right away with a yawn of impatience. Some switch to English, happy for an excuse to practise or show off their skill. When I first arrived and had very little German, I would always ask to speak English. Some people would say no, but after realizing that I really couldn't speak German, they would come out with some pretty decent English. It always felt like they were just uncertain and shy of using their English, not that they were insulted or something.

I think things are much different when you know the language, but not necessarily because people act so much differently. For one thing, without German you can't talk to anyone who doesn't speak English. This cuts out a lot of people, but the worst of it is when you are trying to chat with a group of people, you either get cut out when they speak German, or you shut out those who can't speak English. There is nothing malicious about it, but it makes for some frustrating situations. Also, there is so much going on all the time that you can't understand without the language, like street signs, train station announcements, overheard conversations, TV, radio, and so on. The biggest thing I found when I first arrived here was how isolated I felt.

@toblerone

Depends how long you want to stay. If you are only here for a very short period of time it probably wouldn't pay off to learn the language. It is not a language that gets used in many parts of the world. If you plan to stay here for longer you should definitely learn the language and try to become fluent. I hated not being able to speak the language to such a degree that I forced myself to become fluent within one year. I got to know German people (in my home country) as being very snooty and arrogant. The last thing I wanted was for them to find it amusing that I cannot master their "unbelievably, incredibly difficult language". This attitude really p*ssed me off! I clearly remember this one German bloke telling me German is such a difficult language that foreigners could forget about learning it within one year and that many foreigners could forget about ever becoming proficient. I translated this as "only Germans have enough brains to learn this language". I took a bet with him that I'd be able to and told him he is talking cowdung and won the bet. It became a matter of honour to me. No, I am not particularly gifted, but the amount of arrogance I was met with really motivated me to learn the language! It has helped me lots and I have also learned that not all German people are like that. I have come to like them quite a bit. You will only understand them once you've learned their language. They have a very fine sense of humour that one only gets to understand after becoming proficient.

And it is not "Zahlen, bitte!" It is "Können/kann wir/ich bitte zahlen! " "Kann ich bitte die Rechnung haben?" oder "Die Rechnung, bitte". "Zahlen, bitte!" sounds rude to me and I really am german.

When I read all your postings I am ashamed that the Germans you meet mostly are rude to you in whatever language you speak to them. But have you ever been in France? I am nearly fluent in french but that does not help me at all!

much easier than German though (the Scandinavian languages that is, Finnish is a nightmare)

Just to be really pedantic too - Finalnd isn't in Scandinavia

I think it sounds rude too. For those not wishing to speak however, the international sign language gesture of signing a check normally gets the waiters attention from across the room, and your bill is bought over accordingly. If I have to actually speak, I like to throw the wildcard "mal" word in somewhere, just for fun.


I am fluent in Frog, and the key in France is to just be ruder than everyone else. One of the main reason I like the place, you can lord it about being an arrogant smug arsehole.

When we covered "the resaurant" in my german class the elderly Austrian teacher sais that "Zahlen Bitte" was OK. I've been using it on our last few visits...bugger!

I assumed it was the equivalent of "cheque please" so didn't think it was an issue.

Fair play - but imagine someone with a strong German accent in England (if you were a waiter) saying "cheque please" or saying "excuse me, may we have the bill please". I think the latter would be received much better. I mean, I would never say simply "cheque please" in England, I'll always use a full sentence and be a little more polite.

True, the French are ruder than the Germans any day of the week.

And about the "Check/Cheque please" discussion, I think it also depends on how you have been treating the waiter/waitress the whole time. If you say it in a friendly manner and are smiling, he or she isn't going to take it the wrong way.

Hi - I am probably jumping on this a bit late ... but what kind of a question is that? You live in a foreign country and are contemplating whether or not to learn the local language? What kind of attitude is that?

I am German and lived in England for over 12 years - during those years I became so proficient in English that people were not able to tell that I am German (and I certainly never had that 'Allo 'Allo-style German accent!). I am proud to speak English so well and had a lot more fun, learnt about culture, English life and humour the more I got into the language. I have become truly bilingual, which is also a professional asset!

You should see it as a challenge and a necessity to learn the language - you are missing out on so much otherwise and will be destined to live in your little enclave of English speaking people forever and always ...

Actually, I think people misunderstood me.

I plan to get fluent in the language of whatever country I settle in. I already speak 3 fluently.

But I am trying to decide between Sweden and Germany, and on the surface, have noticed how much friendlier and hospitable the Swedes are compared to the Germans.

I was just wondering if this changes at all in a significant way (i.e. do the Germans open up and become friendlier to befriending a foreigner) once you learn a decent level of German (but not flawlessly fluent, which will take time).

Oh, once again a thread around here has found it's way: Germans are scum. Whatever we do has to be wrong. If some stranger comes along with his broken German and we respond in English it's bad, because we don't respect his effort to master our language. If we respond in German it's rude because we are that arrogant and assume that he's not able to understand our third-world-language that's "not a language that gets used in many parts of the world". So how do you like it?

I could be wrong on this but I thought it was German and NOT English that was the most widely understood language in Europe.
Some of us appreciate the tolerance and help of Germans rron.
Me in particular. I think Germany is lovely

Most widely spoken language in Europe http://www.lmu.edu/globaled/germany/advant...dlangstudy.html
http://www.germanlinx.vic.edu.au/careers/whyger.htm
http://schools.4j.lane.edu/spencerbutte/La...l/WhyLearn.html
http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/~berlin/WhyGerman.html

It is the language with the most native speakers in the European Union.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language

I'm guilty of having been here quite a long time and not speaking better German, but I get by, I understand far more than I can speak, if that makes any sense. I watch German TV and read the local newspaper (not the SudDeutsche, I tried that for a while and really struggled - it's a very high level of German).

I have met some damn rude people though who have made snide remarks, including a work colleague and a public sector worker. I've also noticed quite recently that when you absolutely need to speak German with someone and your confidence goes you have had it, although that could also be down to the other person having zero tolerance for what you are struggling to say. Some Germans will also go out of their way to speak clearly to you in German, others seem to delight in confusing the hell out of you, or drop in to English.

A friend of mine who has been here ten years has only just recently started speaking German, he met a new partner who doesn't speak much English so they started talking in German, he has improved dramatically in just 1 year and I can see the difference it makes, shooting the breeze with shopkeeprs and stuff like that.

Bollocks. I can't see where anyone said that.
Explain yourself Mr Sensitive.

You can use bezahlen on its own, which I always thought was 'bitte zahlen' spoke quick.

For a good laugh about language cock ups in various countries you can get 'Me talk pretty one day' from Amazon.de

Is that the David Zedaris book (or some such name)? I thought it was ok, not great..

The day you will have to speak with institution as Deutsch Telekom, KVR etc because you have a problem or a specific question, you will see how speaking german is important.

I have been to Germany many times over the last 5 years and I have recently moved to Munich from good old friendly Ireland, where every one will talk to any one. Perhaps it makes a difference. I will try and learn for the simple reason that I need to understand whats going on around me or should I bother.

I second/third/fourth the folks who say you're treated better if your German is good. Most Germans I encounter when I'm in Munich or elsewhere in Germany don't know I'm not German, at least for a while till a slight accent or stylistic mistake gives me away, so I'm treated like everybody else. It's a matter of courtesy on my part to learn the language. if I'm here longer than a visit. Really pisses me off to see, on the automatic teller machine at Wells Fargo Bank in California, instructions in:
Espanol
Tagalog (I think)
Vietnamese
Chinese
One or two others I don't recognize
English also ran

Americans have low standards for their residents/citizens.

Surely there is another factor on being treated well/badly: how do you act, and how do you look? If you are a lovely babe and dressed well, chances of being treated badly anywhere are probably miniscule unless you are acting like a real jerk. Being polite goes a long way no matter how you look or how bad your local language skills.

On Scandinavia: I am quite favorably disposed to Swedes if only because my grandfather came from there. Learning Swedish (though I didn't study long and never got fluent) was a piece of cake after learning German, since most of the words are similar either to German or English and the grammar is easier than German.

Swedes friendly? Hmm, I just remember that Swedish relatives visiting me in America a long time ago expressed surprise at how "kindly" Americans were (Washington State).

For a more up-to-date view of life in Sweden, quite funny -- I've no idea how valid the stereotype is -- see:

http://splorg.org:8080/people/tobin/projec...ge/50signs.html

System bolaget is the expensive state-run liquor store.

I've been around in my short life and I'll say this much for what it's worth. Every country has its idiosyncrasies, some more obvious than others depending from which country i.e. viewpoint you're coming from. That is an Englishmen would have less problems in American than say a guy from Burma. Attempting to speak at least a few words of the lingua franca of the country I am in has always been beneficial to me. Even back home, the blacks thought it was awesome that a white man so much as attempted to speak their language.

As far as the Swedes are concerned, 'jag gillar de ocksa', but I like the Germans too. I like everyone actually who's open-minded...the Swedes and the Dutch - to mention another example often erroneously held to be super-liberal- have enough of those too.

If you address Germans in English, they will think that you are presumptious and rude. When in Rome act as the Romans is my motto. I spent many summers at my grandmother's home in France, and she always made it clear that I speak to her in French. She was a sweet woman, I miss her.