Teen Freedom in Europe

My sense is that German and European teens have more freedom than their US counterparts.
My teenage daughter just returned from a German language program in Munich- the school served beer at a school outing.
Munich is apparently stricter than Vienna- most of the Munich clubs wanted proof she was 18 whereas in Vienna she could get into any club and was served.
The younger teens (age 16 and 17) at the Munich program doctored photocopies of their passports so they could get into the discos.
My son reports in Spain that kids as young as 13/14 will be served as long as they state they're 16- no actual ID required.
Isn't the legal drinking age in most of Europe 16? And the age for drivers licenses is 18?
I know it's hard to generalize but I'm just curious- are most European parents comfortable and accepting of kids drinking at 16? European curfews also seem much later than the US.

My teen's private US high school exchanges with European countries and China.
Some of the parents became very irate following reports of teens drinking on these trips. I say the parents need to chill and trust the judgment of the homestay parents. I also think it's unreasonable to expect the kids to abstain from any alcohol consumption on these trips.

In the US I worry about drinking and driving but this doesn't seem to be an issue in Europe where teens walk, bike or take public transportation.

What are your thoughts on this topic? Thank you!

Edit: The doctoring of passports and serving 13/14 y/os took place in summer programs attended by my kids- these weren't official school trips.

In the "official exchange" during the school year some of the kids snuck into bars a time or two and will now lose all their senior privileges for the upcoming yr. Sounds very extreme and rigid to me!

Trolling tips:
1) Make it believable. Drinking age for beer in Germany is 14, not 18.
2) Few teens have passports; the Schengen agreement makes them unnecessary.
3) Schools in Germany aren't moralist the way US schools (and businesses) are.
4) Modifying any US or EU passport is beyond the abilities of children.
5) Photocopies of identification are never accepted anywhere
6) Clubs in Germany don't "card" people the way they do in the US.
7) No club would turn away a 17-year-old girl.

You had a strong start but lost your credibility with the third sentence.

woof.

Well, speaking as a 16 year old, I can quite frankly tell you all that these things and much worse go on in Europe. I have been an alcoholic for 4 years as a result of the extremely lax drinking laws over here and have never been stopped from trying to drive my porche into nightclubs even on school night, when I should have been doing my homework.

I have also beed exposed to fundamentally evil sights at lakes in the summer; yes, bare lady breasts.

I look forward to the day that I leave German school at the age of 25 and go on to university so I can graduate at 32 and start to live a more meaniful life, leaving my spoiled youth behind.

I only wish we could have the same puritan beliefs conditions as you have in the US, rock on the Pilgrim Fathers: No nudity/No drinking for youths, sensible religious beliefs and the right to carry side arms in case the US "standing army" suddenly evaporates.

Does anyone have an idea of the best country in Europe I could move to, to protect myself from the evils of German society, here are some of my ideas:
Ireland:
Positives-Green
negatives-not religious enough/too much tax avoidance
Switzerland
Positives-Nice mountains
Negatives-not in Europe/too many dentists
France:
Positives-Cruelty to animals for the sake of good eating
Negatives-Strange language no else speaks
Italy:
Positives-Nearby
Negatives- people are too short
UK:
Positives-music
Negatives-everything else
Belgium:
Positives-None
Negatives-it exists

Please help me decide.

Signed: Hopeful of Munich...

I don't what convinces you guys this is a troll. I'd leave it.

My 17 year old cousin in New York goes out and does the same things that the local 17 year olds do. Except, of course, doctoring passports. Passport doctoring was once confined to the seedy underworld of organized crime and it took true technical and artistic experts to make a passable forgery. Who knew that Munich's teens had the same capabilities. Very impressive.

And this was reported from her kid. Who knows what he meant. Maybe the ID cards the Germans have? Maybe it's just what they were claiming to have done.

If you put your blind faith into a governmental decree stating that suddenly people can at the magical age of 21 years become responsible drinkers, you should put your faith in the German government on the age that they require their children and the people who are visiting. The problem does not lie with the German bars, or clubs, but why would such a nice and proper child choose to go out and drink and dance (the sinner) while on a trip abroad.

You know, I don't actually think this is a troll, just a bit nieve. So in an effort to be helpful...

I grew up in the UK rather than continental Europe. I first ordered cider and drank it in a pub, without my parents, at age 14. I was with friends who were older though - I guess 16ish. This is probably a bit younger than average, but I was already 6'2" by this point. We started going to pubs in the town where I grew up aged about 15. My parents knew and condoned this behaviour, as long as I didn't ever push it too far and come home roaring drunk. I don't think I ever did. At this point there were many fake IDs around - anyone with a laser printer and access to a laminating machine could manufacture one. I'd guess we were clubbing at age 16. Although lots of my friends were checked (I guess you would say "carded"), I never was. By the age of 18, I think my friends and I had "seen that, done that" and drank responsibly.

Concerning drink driving, in the UK you can start learning at age 17. It usually takes about 6 months to pass. Although there were a few isolated cases among people I knew growing up who did drink drive (with horrific consequences) for most of the younger generation it is utterly unacceptable. In my experience as a barman in a country pub, it's more a problem with people who are middle aged and need to drive to get to a pub, have been getting away with it for the last twenty years, and see nothing wrong with it.

In UK/Europe, most kids don't have a car for starters. Although I passed my test when I was 17, I was only allowed to borrow my mother's car on special occasions.

@BadDoggie
I'm pretty sure it's 16, not 14.. most bars have a copy of the gesetz behind the bar

I've been carded at several places in Munich and I'm 25..

1) Don't know to comment
2) Teens from the US will have passports
3) They can be just as moralistic.
4) Defintely not, I had a fake ID since I was sixteen, and most of my friends did.
5) They are, and I have used them from the Post, to Deutsche-Telekom to Police. They are not prefered, but will be taken.
6) Yes they do, especially clubs that cater to the younger crowds.
7) Yes, they do, same as number 6.

I'm also going with the "this is not a troll" theory. (with that, FYI, your_momma, "troll" = person seeking to start an argument with a controversial / touchy topic.) but I can also see how BD would think so.

anyway...

But clearly YES! European teens have much more freedom than US teens. the legal drinking age is one obvious area. but also note that many countries have one age limit for 'beer and wine' and another for 'hard alchohol'. Personally, I see this as very effective in allowing people to learn how alchohol affects them, without jumping straight to the hard stuff.

from personal experience as a US teen, I can assure you that kids are drawn to the hard stuff first, simply because it is easier to smuggle a bottle of vodka / wiskey / bourbon / etc into a party than it is a case of beer. With this, many US teens hit the hard stuff first - and the results ain't pretty...

add to this, that US teens have to hide their drinking from parents / elders, there is no one there to "teach" them how to drink. and yes, people have to learn how to deal with alchohol. If people lived according to the law and did not drink until the age of 21 - they would begin drinking after they have their first job, are "on their own" (away from the parents), have a car, and have cash to burn. To me, this is a dangerous combination - inexperience with alchohol + all the tools needed to abuse it / cause damage. It seems better to learn how to handle the stuff before you are responsible for the rent and have a car, which could easily be the death of you and others...

Also, in most of Europe, there is a thing called "public transportation". This also exists in the US, but only in a very few places - NYC, Boston, Chicago, San Fran, and ... Portland? Before everyone goes nuts, I am talking about public transportation that is reasonably safe for teens at night and that is socially acceptable (for instance, Dallas and Houston have a bus network, but no socially concerned teen would be seen on those busses). With this, teens in europe have more mobility and can experience more of life than what is shown on the TV in a sub-urban house. I would like to add that this also applies to the elderly. anyway...

the result is that drinking and driving are very rare things with european teens. First, it is not a logistical necessity. Second, it is socially looked down on. Third, getting a driving license is not something that everyone must do (there are many europeans in their 20s who do not have one - by choice). And lastly, the laws are very strict against drinking and driving (in some places, you can loose your license FOREVER from just one offense).

But laws don't make freedom. Social acceptance, tolerance, understanding, guidance, public infrastructure, and such things do.

And, your_mama, if your kids are comfortable telling you (voluntarily?)that they doctored their IDs to get into a bar, then it sounds like you give them more freedom than most US parents. good for you

There are freedoms that are different in both countries. The Europeans are given much more "trust" by their familes, but not by the public compared to American teens. Meaning American children are given cars, access to drive at 16, limited or no curfews. German teens do not drive until 18, then are on probation for three years; they have set curfews(at least in Bayern), under 16 home by ten, 16-18 home by midnight, while in the US most cities leave it up to the parents. While most (aside from drinking) restrictions on teenagers in the US are by the family and not as many by the state. What occurs strangely enough is that both American and German children grow up reasonably responsible as adults-go figure.

BD, i think you are being unfair calling your mama a troll. If you look at the three previous posts, they were about buying gifts for the host parents for when her child comes over for a language course. That was a months ago. Now her kid has returned and is maybe looking to see if the things she was getting up to were "normal" and/or "acceptable" behaviour here in Germany.

Give her the benefit of the doubt and help her.

What I think is totally ricockulus (excuse my tangent) is that in many (if not all??) of the States in the US is that it is deemed you are old enough to be sent off to war to kill and be killed at the age of 18, yet you are considered not to be mature enough to drink a beer? Just a little odd this chap thinks.

Ha! How funny...what happens if the fuzz catch a 16 year old out after midnight? Hope they get thrown in the slammer...those pesky kids

@Timmeh, you're not alone on this point. I hear that as a "solution" to this, the legal drinking age on military bases is 18.

note: most age limits and alchohol laws are set by the local govt. - city, county, state. there is a great deal of variation across the US, but 21 is generally the legal age limit. I hear that New Orleans now has 18 as the limit (or is that all of Louisianna?). and there are still many dry counties - no alchohol alowed by anyone, even soldiers or war veterans.

I find the attitude toward alcohol here to be far healthier than in NA. Alcohol is introduced in a slow manner as a lass of wine or beer with dinner as opposed to the idea that it is only a means to get drunk.

Where I grew up the legal age is 18 and as soon as we hit that magic number we were out constantly drinking, puking and generally being idiots. We had no prior (legal) exposure and always coveted what we couldn't have often sneaking behind the local 7-11 or into the woods to get drunk. I don't find that to be the case (as much) here.

Also, I've been carded several times here and look no where near under 16 (legal age to consume beer) or 18 (legal age to consume hard alcohol as far as I'm aware anyway).

oh, and in the sub-ubia of my youth (US) - we had a curfew of 10.00 PM for all kids under 18.

Yeh , nuthin like a lass of gine or a deer with binner <hiccup>

on the photcopies of passports thing: when I was first dating my gf, she was 20 and drinking with me in Minnesota. Of course, they card you at every bar there...and so she made a color photocopy of her german ID (not passport) which worked EVERYWHERE...even when she went clubbing in Miami and Washington DC, etc. passports would be difficult...but maybe the kid meant their german ID's. ...and honestly, if you saw her "fake" you'd believe it, the only difference is a lil sticker on the back which doesn't look bad on the photocopy, and the print is slightly textured on the original...no one but a german would know that...

my "curfew" was only valid til I turned 16 in the U.S., btw...and it was easy to get out of that "oh, I'm staying at my friend's house" ...was Minnesota teen for "we're gonna party all night long" ...the legal curfew by the city was 10pm for all under 18...but no one cared...was caught once and they just said "go home"

I assure you I am a real mother in the US and not a troll! Thanks so much to everyone who gave me genuine answers.

My daughter must've been misinformed if the legal drinking age in Munich is 16. I think she was able to buy beer in some pubs but had difficulty getting into the clubs/discos initially. The big groups of foreign teens she was with learned it was best to split up when approaching the bouncers/doormen.
She also says they frequently asked for ID. My daughter can easily pass for 18 or 20 although she is barely 16.

In Vienna last summer gaining access to clubs was very easy-maybe she wrongly assumed the Munich restrictions had to do with age when it was really about something else. So is the legal drinking age in Munich 16? I'm still confused because of the various answers that I got.

Brokenm- thanks for the info on curfews. My daughter's host family lived in an upscale neighborhood in Kreilling. The program informed the kids who were under 18 that their curfew was midnight but none of them adhered to that.

It did make me anxious when her roommate wasn't with her and she had to walk alone 5 blocks in the dark at 2 am from the S-Bahn station to get back to her house! On another occasion, she stayed out all night with some pals. Her host family had an 18 y/o daughter who was still in HS-she may have had a midnight curfew- I'm not sure. The host mom seemed unconcerned about my daughter's late hrs- I spoke to her once and mentioned that I hoped she'd be in by midnight and the mother said something about "kids needing to be with their friends."
But perhaps we didn't understand each other because of the language barrier.

I wasn't surprised or upset about the lack of curfew because I had researched the program thoroughly in advance and knew there was no official curfew or enforcing of curfews.

From reading this board, I learned Munich has a low crime rate which was reassuring. Her host family was outstanding and very nurturing- if she returns next summer she'd like to stay with them again.

My primary concern now is with my daughter's US HS. We're hosting an Austrian student in Oct and my daughter will stay with her next May on an official school trip.

I think our HS is ridiculously strict. Every yr there is a problem on the exchange trips with kids breaking the rules against drinking. This has very serious repercussions. Not only can they lose all their senior privileges (e.g. not go off campus for lunch etc) but they may force the kids to admit on college applications that they've received a disciplinary action.

A small but vocal minority of right wing parents pushes for these restrictions and punishments. My daughter assures me she won't drink while she's on the school trip but I worry she'll slip up and get in trouble!

I wouldn't be overly concerned with this here in Munich. There's a reason it's referred to as a "Toytown" (i.e. little crime).

Don't be anxious...this city is so safe it's ridiculus, it's almost like a, like a...Toytown

Edit - Damn you and your quick fingers IPJ

@Chicago
New Orleans and 18 yr. drinkers in a time of the past. As you stated the drinking age is set by state or local laws, however as in the case of Colorado and New Orleans, the Federal Govt. exerts its illegal firce on states that do not comply with their idea. As they can not "legally" write a drinking age law, the Federal Government forces states to comply by withholding funding (in particular road/interstate funding) from states that do not adhere to the Federal Guideline of 21. That is why the roads in La. are so horrible.

It's amazing to me that Munich is so safe that girls/women can feel safe at all hrs.

One of the foreign students in her program was at a homestay near the Moosach S-bahn and took a cab home at night because of the biergarten nearby.

I read another posting on this board about taking kids out of school a few days early and risking fines. It's interesting to me how attitudes can be so lax in some areas and strict in others.

What does it mean that kids are on "probation" for 3 yrs after they turn 18 (before they can get their drivers licenses)?

i didn't do my driving licence here in Germany so i'm not quite certain of the rules but when my then girlfriend just passed her test she mentioned she could get her licence revoked if she broke traffic laws in the first year. I am sure someone else knows the exact rules.

There's a point system for "veteran drivers", i.e. every time you break a rule, a few points get added, and if you have too many, you lose your licence. Whereas if you are a junior driver, you lose your licence immediately for any sort of infraction (I think).

14-year-olds can drink (beer) in a bar, but not buy it themselves. At 16 they can buy it. 18 is the age for purchase and consumption of harder liquor..

Kids can now learn to drive (with a driving school only) at 16 years 6 months, and even take their test. However, from 17 to 18 they can only drive accompanied by a qualified driver over 30 years old with more than 5 years experience, less than 3 points on their own driving license and "registered" in the young persons license... After their 18th birthday they can drive on their own...

YL6

One thing, I think the beer rules apply to wine as well. I know the graduation school parties usually allow sparkling wine for the kids to make toasts.

Thanks for all your replies.
Is it true that on duty policemen can drink beer?
My daughter saw two uniformed policemen drinking at McDonalds.

She loved Munich and is a little depressed about being home in the boring US!

She'd like to attend HS in Munich or Vienna but I don't think we'd let her go for that long- also, we couldn't afford nor would we want her clubbing on a nightly basis. :)

Is it possible to transfer into the gymnasium without an entrance exam?

I was surprised at the low $ rates some programs are offering for a yr or semester of German HS with a homestay family. Much cheaper than a yr at her private, day HS here. Is public HS open to everyone? Like the US, are there some gymnasiums that are better than others?

Most of the Gymnasiums have exchange schemes with US High Schools. Students come over here for 9 months and vice versa. There's no charge (at least to the German students) except for the cost of travel. They are hosted (for free) by a family over the water. The German students have to show an acceptable level of knowlege and understanding of their intended destination, and must already be proficient in English. I'd imagine the US students must be pretty good in German too, or they'd never get through the year here.. Bear in mind that German students run 6-8 hours of English tuition a week when the first start at the Gymnasium...

I've seen uniformed officers drinking beer, but that was a special circumstance. I think it's more likely your daughter saw the cops drinking apfelschorle, which has the colour and bubbles like beer.

that seems very unlikely

Its worth pointing out that in Europe children also have the freedom to walk/cycle to school, play on the street with their friends, and in general behave in a manner that does not suggest that there is a pedeophile, drive by shooting, crack gallery waiting around the next corner

i am no expert on the educational system(s) in Bavaria and Germany. but I do understand that there are considerable differences between regions (i.e. Bavaria is different from Hessen). though there are efforts to "harmonize" the systems (at least at the University level), expect differences. so yes, some schools will be "better" than others. Plus, the educational systems here tend to put kids on different educational paths very early (not all kds will attend gymnasium) - so this is unlike the US system where all kids would first go to High School and afterwards would start taking different paths (College, University, grad school, vocational school, work, etc).

as for the money, it would not surprise me if the german schools were "less expensive" than the US private schools (where parents pay tition). I would assume that the german schools are primarily financed by the State. And this is partly where the higher taxes in Germany go (along with fairly well funded police, public trans, and infrastructure). I hope this doesn't go into a discussion about tax levels, but I think it would be agreed that the tax level should be justified by the benefits received (by the "average" citizen). And it is arguable that the average citizen in Germany "gets more" from the state than the average US citizen.

anyway, I would agree that a year abroad would be a great experience for your daughter. but there are more aspects to consider than just the finances and if she will spend all her spare time in clubs. but it sounds like you have a good grip on this, so you don't need a stranger like me to comment on it.

when did they start serving alcohol at McD

you have been able to get beer in some McDonald's for years. Not in all, though. I remember when I lived near Frankfurt back in '89, I was also shocked to see beer in McDonalds.

I can't remember seeing it here in Munich, though, although I haven't really paid attention cos i don't go to McDonalds to drink beer anyway.

I'm ashamed to admit that I have drunk the crap they pass off as beer from the Karlsplatz McD's...I couldn't help it, it was late, nothing was open and I had to wait 20 minutes for my tram, so beer and a ciggie at the tram stop went down not too shabby. I have since discovered that BK across the road does a much tastier Millers and it's in a genuine plastic cup, not like the paper kak that Maccers gives you.

Showem is prolly right. They were drinking Apfelschorle.
police men are not allowed to drink on Duty.

For the drinking age. Somebody once said: "At least the germans know how their body reacts to alcohol before they are allowed to drink." Which I think is a fair enough comment.

For walking home from the S-Bahn at 2 am on your own. Yes, I would feel safe. And yes, it is more than likely that nothing will happen. But you should still be aware that there are dickheads in this world and they are also in Munich. Especially in the countryside where the area is lonesome and not monitored. In the city I would say she is safe.

I'm not sure you can clump Europe together as one mass based on experiences in Munich, Vienna and Spain though. Britain, in particular, is quite different in many ways, as is Scandinavia and its relationship to alcohol

Thanks so much for the additional replies.

She's currently in a rigorous college prep HS so are you guys saying she could waltz right into a gymnasium without an entrance exam?
She's a hard working, conscientious student who gets very good grades but her standardized test scores haven't been stellar...

I wonder if they would actually give her a diploma if she finished her senior yr in Germany or would they expect her to go an additional yr since she would be barely 18? Are there natl standardized tests you have to pass in order to graduate from HS or are the tests given for college admission?

Is there a heirarchy of universities just like in the US?
Here admission is mostly based on a combination of SATs, GPA, outstanding artistic/musical/sports ability and community service/extracurriculars etc.
How does it work in Germany?

Thanks again!

I'm not sure which of your questions above are about the US system and which are about the German system.

Concerning the German university system, admission requires the Gymnasium "diploma", which is called "Abitur" and is awarded after the 12th or 13th grade (varies by state), which means at age 18 or 19. Depending on the subject you want to study, there may or may not be minimum grade requirements to be admitted to university (you don't have to take an additional university entrance exam, instead the final Gymnasium grades are used). Nearly all universities are state-run and charge only nominal fees. In most subjects, there is no meaningful "hierarchy", i.e. quality of education and "value" of the degree is nearly identical.

Concerning some other comments made above:

- German state-run Gymnasiums are free of charge, except for some nominal fees for books etc.

- I believe there would be no entrance exam for an "exchange-year". However, if you want to actually go for the final exam ("Abitur"), you would (I think) need to stay for the last two years of Gymnasium (because the final grades are computed based on results accumulated over those last two years), and I presume you would need to fulfill some sort of qualification requirement to be admitted as a regular student, though I do not know how it works for foreign students coming in from abroad.

- Language could be a major issue. Bear in mind that all classes are in German, and if your kids are not close to fluent already, they will need at least a few months to adjust to the language. It's tough to keep up with the curriculum in the meantime, unless they are really bright. Again, not so important if it's "only" an exchange-year, but a different story altogether if you want to get a final diploma / Abitur.

Thanks Tom for additional info. I'm surprised that all univ in Germany are of equal status.
I was told if she wanted to go to HS in Germany she'd probably be placed in a small town rather than Munich. The rates were amazingly cheap- in the $6,000 range with full board in a home.
When we discussed the small town and difficulty learning in German (although she's had 5 yrs of study she's still not fluent) she seemed to lose interest
I appreciate everyone's comments on this topic. She'll probably go back next summer and I'll worry again about her late hrs.