ACL surgery with Sportmedizin at Wolfart Klinik

Tom, who was the first doctor you saw?
This knee (fell skiing, the knee was twisted) is swelling like heck, I'm getting worried. Doubt that it is a rip, more like just a strain but I'd like to get it checked.
Of course if someone else has a recommendation for a doctor in the Neuhausen area, could I have it please.

The first doctor I saw years ago was not much cop, but then I went to Sportmedizin on Nymphenburgerstr and saw Dr Öttl and he is fantastic. I recommend going to see him if you are worried about your knee. Definately go, do not fuck about with knees I hope its ok!!

Sportmedizin-Muenchen.de
Praxis für Orthopädie & Sportmedizin

Fon: + 49 (0) 89 / 1 29 20 33
info@sportmedizin-muenchen.de
Nymphenburger Strasse 108a
D-80636 München

Website

Cheers darling! It might just need strapping up or something but I don't want to shag the thing completely (ha ha that sounds funny).

So what happened? Hope it has not put you off skiing!

Fell with the knee going the wrong way, the skis were crossed in front (sodding things too long, I'm getting another pair) so the right knee got twisted. Think it is just strained rather than anything ripped, as I can walk with it but it buckles slightly when I stand up. Got appointment on Weds afternoon and no sports for me in the meantime.
I really want to go again on Sunday if I can (and I may well sign up for the extra 3 Sundays in March).

Hmm, well I called with the same description and they sent me (gesetzliche Krankenkasse) to someone else. She kept repeating "wir machen keine konservative Therapie" -- yeah so what? If I have to get operated on I'll get operated on! What she meant was, you non-privatkassen-patient should go elsewhere. I got hurt last Saturday and on Sunday just went to the Ambulanz of the Orthozentrum München and waited around for a while til the guy could see me, got an XRay and all, and if you don't have a visible bruise, you probably haven't torn anything. He suggested a Kernspintomographie as the next thing, and I called for an appt for that too, and can only get in March 1. I think by then I won't need it, I just wanted reassurance right now that there's no serious damage... oh well!

It is true, as soon as I said who my insurers are... hope you're feeling better Gen! Maybe it was the Föhn that went for us all?

I have my physiotherapy there and one day I bought up the subject about them turning away non-privately insured people. She said that they have to, by law, take some non-private patients.

I guess its a different matter when you actually have to book an appointment with them though.

Also, this was at the krankengymnastik place above the docs, but they are the same company so dunno.

Katrina, is your appointment on Weds there or elsewhere?

Weds there.

Might still be worth getting it checked though.
A girl in my old company fell with her bicycle and didn't bother getting it checked as it was only bruised and slightly swollen. Half a year later she needed surgery as she damaged her meniscus in the fall and it didn't heal properly (scar tissue on the meniscus).
Don't wanna scare anyone, I'm a bit OTT sensitive about damage to my knees.

I'll bring my X-rays to Curry Night if anyone wants to see! You can see the screws and everything!

from my experience in the wonderful 'company football world' of Munich where i have seen and experienced several injuries ...GET IT CHECKED ...if you have damaged miniscus or ACL or another part of the knee and do nothing about it, this could lead to worst case scenarios such as the early onset of arthritis (NOTE, I am not medically trained and this is just the advice I got from Dr Oettl and talking to other knackered-out old footballers with similar injuries !)

i left it a week after my incident before i went ...the x-rays showed nothing so an MRI was required plus they stuck a needle into my knee to see what fluid was in the swelling ...turned out i had completely ripped my ACL and damaged miniscus ...5 years on after ACL replacement surgery and the bast++d physio that took several months, i am a happy camper !!!

I have no medical training, but in my experience the swelling you describe suggests internal damage i.e. ligament tear.

The strength in your knee comes from the ligaments. Damage to the ligaments causes instability in the joint (which, untreated, over time can lead to further problems), and the "buckling" you mention sounds like exactly this.

If it was just "buckling" and no swelling I would guess it was a ligament sprain. The two together suggest a ligament tear.

It feels a lot better today but I'm still going for the check tomorrow as the swelling is still there. No training in the meantime either.
Watching that Chinese skater's knee go last night made my stomach flip

can anyone post a picture or drawing of where their problems were/are?

after a white-water rafting trip in peru 1.5 years ago (i was in the front & used my back leg as leverage), i strained my knee, but the outside right one. went to orthopedist & he took an x-ray, but nothing noticeable, so he gave me rheuma tablets & said take one before sport (which I refused to do). but if i sit too long with my knee bent, then it is sore.

p.s. i missed tihs post last year tom17. very cool.

EDIT: i went to wikipedia & tried to make the best of determing what my injury may be called.

Mine is called "bloody sore knee". At least it is until someone medical has looked at it.

come to Curry Night and I'll show you my x-rays and give you the full-blown depiction of what it sounds like when your ACL snaps. Glad I didn't see the Chinese skater last night...

trapped in WDF for the next week and a half so won't make it to Curry Night though. hope to hear about your trauma soon though, and in person.

@ katrina, i think my injury just might be "don't sit cross-legged anymore" syndrome. *lol*

Not crossing your legs anymore? ooohhh errrr elf. Oooooooooooooooh and Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. Nothing to do with the new hot young studly man is it?

Ladies please...let's keep it clean.

It must be peak season now! I also fell while skiing and damaged my knee. It was ok but next day I could not walk properly so went straight to hospital. Got x rays and was told that an MRT was required. I thought it was nothing too serious and when I went to the orthopedics (tried Dr. Oettl but I´ve got no private insurance so had to go to another one...... Anyway, the ligaments and meniscus are damaged. I have got this beautiful orthosis that basically does not allow my knee to move at all. In two weeks I will go again and they will change it so I can move it a little bit more...and that is it...
What worries me is that he said "wir werden konservativ sein..." And after reading this topic: does it mean that because I am not private they avoid other kind of treatments...
oh well...
good thing: I found this webpage!!

@RA that is exactly what I should have done after I had my skiing accident 3 years ago. Instead I ignored their advice and did not go for the MRI. The result was a partially torn ligament that did not heal correctly and was weaker as a result.

It was because it was weaker during this time that I ruptured my meniscus and finally broke the ligament while playing frisbee.

You definately did the right thing, stick it out!

If I could turn back time... *sigh*

edit: About them being conservative, I do not believe that is to do with private/public health insurance. Basically they try to treat this injury without surgery if at all possible. Sometimes people with complete ruptures do not get the surgery if their lifestyle can cope with the weaker knee. From my limited and non-medical knowledge on the matter, it sounds like the treatment you are getting is the right one so don't worry

@Tom17: thanks! it is good to know that has nothing to do with not having the right insurance...

I wouldn't have needed surgery for my torn ACL had I not kept reinjuring it. Once just by jumping over a puddle on a rainy day -- that was a serious lifestyle problem: I felt that if you can't jump over puddles, you're not really living.

So Katrina, how did it go at the docs? Everything ok I hope

Haven't been yet, off there in about an hour.

oops, somehow I had it in my head that you said the morning. My bad!

Well the x-ray showed no real bone damage and the kneecap in the right place but there is a bigger gap between the joint on the inner side compared to the right. Due to this and the instability in the knee, I'm having a MRI scan tonight. Suspicion of a ripped inner or front band.
So I'm a bit down about it frankly.

at least you get your scan tonight, I have to wait until March 1!

Anyhow, if it's broken, you can get it fixed. And nowadays you won't end up with the matching set of 6 inch scars like I have that make people think I have ladders in my stockings.

This is how I should have really gone to the slopes - just like Posh
Carry skis on shoulder all day, wear Marc Jacobs moon boots, do not actually ski at any point whatsoever.

Are they Chanel skis? How incredibly lame..

Chanel skis, Chanel poles, no ski boots.

She really is pathetic..

Yeah but you'd still bone her hutcho so don't kid yourself.

@Gen: I only had to wait for 2 days for my scan. (public krankenkasse). Try
Drs. Wuttge
Gemeinschaftpraxis Radiologie-Strahlentherapie-Nuklearmedizin
Karslplatz 3-5
Telephone: 089 55 25 26-0
I rang on Monday and on Wed. had the MRI (in 20m.or so)

yeah I was thinking I should call other places and see if I can get in anywhere else earlier, might well do that if I can get over my paralyzing laziness. Thanks!

Well all the happy news just went out of the window - it is a proximal partial rupture of the front band.
Operation March 16th in the Woldfahrt-Klinik
The partial tear is too big so they want to operate. Dr Tim knew that it would need doing because of how the knee felt, he had only sent me to the MRI to locate the tear.
Sports ban in meantime, can walk, cycle on a stationary bike or try swimming.
Thankfully sitting on a motorbike is still allowed (hey if the OP ain't 'till March...)
It should also be noted that if you ever need an MRI scan, go to Pasing as the bloke that does it is very sexy indeed.

Oh i'm so sorry to hear that Katrina. That sucks. Will they be replacing the band or just binding it up so it heals properly?

As I am sure you are aware from this thread, the hospital is very nice and there are a few of us who have had good successful operations there so I am sure it will all go well

Good luck Katrina, but it sounds like you have done the right thing. Getting it treated right away rather than letting it heal improperly and then doing further damage.

I can vouch for that, I left mine over a year before seeing a doc and that just caused me more probs. Doing it now is the right thing ™

Katrina, I found a very good site when I had mine done. It has lots of info on the knee and a forum for questions and other peoples experiences. It can be of help if you want more info on things. http://www.kneeguru.co.uk/KNEEtalk

Keyhole then doing the same thing that they did with you Tom, that thing with the stringy bit out of your thigh being stitched on to strengthen.
Dr Tim said that most people knacker theirs at ski lifts! So to do it on a slope is an achievement ha ha
It will have a much quicker recovery time than yours too Tom, about 4-6 weeks.
As soon as a knee becomes unstable, especially if it doesn't hurt, that's the time to go, folk ignore it and then it is much harder to fix.

Good luck Katrina!

Strange that Tom never mentioned that to me

Katrina...poor you. Glad to hear you are getting it fixed up now...at least I don't have start my nagging and lecturing on you Sorry it cut your ski season short but hey you were doing it and doing it well...these injuries happen to the best of the best.

I'm still going to the ski course on Sunday but will be doing the Posh method and not skiing. I shall take some reading material, some tunes, catch some rays and eat more speckknödelsuppe.
Have just spoke to the instructor and she had wondered why I had been skiing so badly and had got very unconfident, the injury explained why. I didn't know that I was injured, it was when I fell as the knee gave way that I realised that something wasn't right.
It is sad to cut the season short but better to have one short season than no seasons in the future. I'm trying to put the best face on it that I can really. But will KFC come my way too?

I think you have cinema aisle syndrome because sufferes always sit near the aisle so they can straighten their knee. It's normally caused by a piece of cartilage being torn off and lodging itself somewhere else on the knee cap. When you sit with your knee bent for an extended period of time it locks. I can't see how you would get it from white-water rafting unless you conked your knee against a rock or something. It can be healed although I've left mine since it doesn't really hurt, is just uncomfortable sitting in the backseat of a car or in small cinemas.

Here's a link I googled: http://www.emedicine.com/pmr/topic101.htm

KFC, maybe not. But subway and Starbucks if you ask nicely

Op date 16th March ?

The things some people will do to get hold of drugs for Paddy's day.

Oy vey. Too caught up in the TB drama all day to post this, it all makes my own troubles seem so small -- but the doc this morning said I've ripped my ACL again. Shit fucking hell. I busted out crying, which I think was rather embarrassing for the poor doctor, and sobbed again at the Empfang when the nurse called another doc to make an MRI appointment and said it was "dringend". So I've got an MRI tomorrow morning and then straight back to the doc with the results and hopefully to make an operation appointment, because I can't leave it the way it is -- I'm afraid to bend my knee for fear I can't get it open again, feels like something gets stuck under a ligament that can't stretch enough to slide over it, like Ulysses described above. I was on crutches for three months last time I got it repaired (sounds casual don't it!) but nowadays apparently it'd only be ten days. I'm shocked! Ah, the advances that've been made in the last 17 years since my first operation! Maybe I won't even need a Vollnarkose this time and can watch and faint under my own power! Reading back to Tom's experiences, I know he was off crutches within the month. Wow. Doc also said they would be taking some of my hamstring tendon rather than the patellar ligament, which is good, because they took patellar ligament last time and that's part of what made me cry -- I don't have any extra patellar ligament left to take, I need the bits that are there to hold the patella! But hamstring tendons I can do without I guess. Tom how many screws did you need then? Do you have X-rays I can look at? I brought mine extra last week to Curry Night but nobody wanted to look at them, I was quite disappointed. And unobtrusive war wounds this time, how nice, I've already got the two 6" scars and don't need more.

Anyway the doc said it's not rare that someone busts their ACL twice, and some people do it three times. But it's all reparable, he says. Kind of patting my hand as I sob. I feel like making a mistake once is forgivable, but making the same mistake twice is stupidity. Of course it wasn't a mistake, it was an accident, that's what I keep telling myself... and I also wonder why the fella two weeks ago told me that nothing was ripped. Sigh. Hubby wants to sue for a Behandlungsfehler, but I don't think it was, the guy did say to go for a Kernspin (MRI) if it didn't feel better after a couple days and I did, so there you go.

Oh and I've not been sent to Sexy Pasing MRI Man either, I'm going to Heimeranplatz. I can get there right on the 131 bus that goes by my apt though, so that's fine.

Maybe Katrina and I will start our own thread sometime -- or are we too lazy? "Physical Therapy for the Knee Meetup at the Arc" or so. We can stand around bobbing up and down on one leg 60 times. Did that in the line at the supermarket once and my stepmother hissed at me to stop and explained that I looked retarded -- I think she meant autistic really. That's what I get for staring into space, had we been holding a conversation as I bobbed I bet no-one would have thought anything of it.

Oh Gen, I am so sorry to hear that...hopefully this is the last time you need an ACL operation!!
Good luck!

About the MRI: well, I´ve looked at the images of my knee a couple of times but they do not say much to me

Wow Gen thats some story. It sucks that it has happened again. Hopefully that is just because the process was not as refined then as it is now. Hopefully it will be better this time around.

The patellar graft, quite frankly freaks me out. I dont like the idea of having a missing bit of kneecap and tendon there. Its a high tension part of the muscle system for everyday use so my non-professional opinion is that it's there cos it needs to be. I like the ham string graft, no kneecap complications and I am not missing my ham string yet. I have read in places that it grows back anyway.

As for my screws, I had 2. One at each end of the replacement ligament. This is different to the Patellar graft as I think they wedge in the bone on one end of the graft (the patellar graft still has bone on each end) and only the other end is screwed in place. As there is no bone on the hamstring graft, 2 srews are needed.
But the screws are special turn-into-bone type things but sure you can see them in my x-rays and you are welcome to have a look at them sometime.

I like the sound of this new club. I too have found myself bobbing up and down on one leg recently. It would be nice for us 'bobbers' to have our own sanctuary where we can all look silly together

Good luck with the op you two! If there is anything I can help with, with my 'non-professional but based on real experience' advice, ask away. I certainly don't mind going on and on about my knee. Can't you tell?