School won't allow my child 4 days off

I was thinking the EXACT same thing. My parents took me out of school for about 4 weeks total every year from the time I was 7 till I was 16. We would travel all over North America and Europe. They had a hard time with my school as well (mainly because of how often I was gone), so the deal was, if my grades slipped even a tiny bit, I didn't go on the next trip. The thought of being left behind was so depressing that I worked my ass off and actually got better marks during these time then during the rest of the year.

I also had to do lots of reports on where I had been, which was always good fun! I learned 100 times more about people, history, languages, culture, problem solving and relationships through travel then I ever could in any book or classroom. The experiences were real so I could easily apply my "real world" knowledge to the theoretical knowledge being taught. This made school easier for me in the long run.

I still have fond memories of my World History mid-term when I was about 16. Half the test was European Geography. The other half was multiple choice European history. The teacher moved my desk to the opposite corner of the room away from everyone else because he knew everyone in my immediate area would cheat off me. I was embarrassed (and I did catch a lot of shit from people) but I also felt very proud of what I accomplished. For someone with low self esteem, that was a very rare feeling!

True or not, though, I don't think you could reasonably expect to argue with a teacher in the Bavarian school system that your child learns more outside the classroom than inside it . . .

As to whether they really work up to the last day, I have a private English student who attends Gymnasium. They completed their end-of-year exams a couple of weeks ago (so a month before the actual last day of school.) Since then, in English class, they have been watching "Bend it Like Beckham." Their entire year also took a two-night trip to a youth hostel in Furstenried and did what a company might call "team-building"-type training. They missed ALL their classes for 2.5 days for that.

Also seemed to be quite a few school trips for the little kids at the zoo yesterday. Not that the zoo isn't educational, but how can the school tell a parent that what they want to do with their child outside the classroom is of no value when they're taking the classes to the zoo?

The issue isn't whether the child is forbidden to learn outside of the school hours (more on this rant in the footnote). It is that in Bavaria and her school which her child attends has a policy enforceable by law, which requires the child to be there with the point that a vacation is not a suitable exception. Whether the child learns every minute of the day, or the teacher provides an excellent plan for the days the child will miss is independent of the issue. HW needs to address the school adminstration with these points in mind, not that her child will gain a better education learning more or her home culture. She needs to stress that she was naive of the rules, that her tickets were purchased, that it is her mistake, that she understands the reasons for the expectations of the attendance (whether she agrees or not) and that it will not happen again.

Footnote: I am quite bothered by the excuse I hear many parents use concerning the education of their child, i.e. home schooling. They always use this as an example as a comparison. I think that mentality is distorted. Every parent should be educating their child, and this should be independent of whereever they learn. If they attend school, the parenst should try and complement the learning, impress on the child why this is important to learn and add to the knowledge base your child is learning with points that you believe the teacher left out. Every child should be home schooled in addition to what the teachers teach. This is also concerning the parents who take vacations early because it saves them a few dollars. Do you not think that most parents would also like the cheaper fares? The less hassle, the rooms still free hotels and the near empty highways? The excuse HW of how much more education your child will learn in Canada on this trip, while true, would still be the same if you left four days later. And to use this excuse in Germany, where most students are well versed in a variety of cultures by vacations, will probably not be considered valid.

@brokenm
it isn't just about saving a couple bucks, if you read my first post you will realize that I said we have plans that were made while we were in Switzerland. Now I realize that you wouldn't have known that we haven't lived in Switzerland for over 6 months, meaning that these plans have been in the works for quite awhile.
I also work with my son every other day on Canadian Geography and history and well as english grammar.
I just wanted to make it clear that this isn't just about saving a couple bucks...

@HW
I didn't mean to only point your example out, but as this was a thread begun by you, I used you as an example. Personally, I have no problem with taking children out of school, as I believe the family comes first, and a vacation together is far more important than spending a few days listening to a teacher drone on. But I do believe school is important, and I would not have known the "rules" of the German educational system. My points were 1) to stress that you need to approach the school with their perspectives and legal constraints in mind 2) I don't believe using the trip as an educational alternative is a good idea 3) get a note from a physician if all talks fail 4) I don't like home schooling as it should be understood that the child should always be educated at home as well (this point does not apply to you)

and (5) Ask Ed Bob to remove this thread before the school admins see it.

and (6) Only post that personal information which you are happy for a pool of literate piranhas to see and comment on.

It's a small world out there.

It just amazes and shocks me that normally-bright and effective parents can be so undermined by this system. Draconian rules enforced by "the law" only serve as votes of 'no confidence' against parents, and result in the de facto institutionalization of every child in the German system.

I am seriously wondering -- and not for the sake of argument: why does any parent put up with this?

Why does any parent allow the school or the government tell him or her what is best for each individual child?

When we take vacations with our children, they are EDUCATIONAL. I would challenge any school to justify how it is of more educational value to traipse around the zoo than it is for me to take my children to museums and theatre in London? How is it more educational to do 4-day "field trips" -- ostensibly to "bond" with classmates -- than to tour desert botanical gardens with their grandmother (who knows the flora and fauna)?
My daughter chose to be homeschooled full-time this year. I was counseled that it is "against the law." Well, guess what -- I didn't ask permission. My daughter does 2 hrs. of math every day, and is way ahead of her peers. She has read about 40 (lengthy) books, done numerous art projects, plays the piano, rides horses, does Language Arts and Spelling, and science experiments and theory. I am not bragging -- that's what you can do when you homeschool. The boys were given the option of homeschooling, but chose to only do it part-time as the poster described above.

No way would I put up with any school bullying me, and undermining my parenting!

Take your child back! You didn't have these children to turn them over to the German government, did you?

M.

Is it better to have thousands of sets of parents making their own rules as to how and when a child should attend school?


You don't have to, you can take your child and leave. Cheerio. Same applies for all the other rules that one doesn't like.

Or...you could start to lobby on the subject. Gather facts, figures & signatures, submit them to your local schools, government councellors, etc, etc.

Or...you could just bitch about it here, rest in the knowledge that there are others out there with the same problems as you and actually do nothing at all.

Or you can do like me, and pray I never have kids.

please, pray that I never have kids...the more the merrier.

then I will never have to put up with that shit

Not every parent is capable of home schooling - and not every child is suited for it. The "system" here saves a few from being totally ruined by their parents.

Sorry - just a bit upset after meeting with the teacher and about one child that neither the teacher nor I (as PTA) can help because the parents refuse to think there is a problem.

of course. But why not take them in the allotted vacation time. Its presumably unlikely that the only thing they will be missing is a trip to the zoo

and if you don't have the rules then for every wonderful, super human, bright and effective parent like you with botanical grandmothers, there will be 10 other parents who aren't blessed with your fantastic skills who may probably abuse the system, or their kids will abuse the system

great post marya, my sentiments exactly.

No matter how educated you think you are, different people learn better through different ways. I would rather give my son/daughter the chance to be exposed to a variety of instructors (rather than me and my immediate family as their only teachers). I know that sometimes all it takes for someone to learn something is for another person to explain it in a different manner. As a parent you will also have a bias and will never know exactly where your child stands in relation to their peers. I am certain that your child is way above his peers in math and all other subjects, just as every home-schooling parent thinks of their child.

As (almost) always, I agree with boomtown rat. The rules aren't there for the good parents. They're there for the neglectful ones.

so you'd be happy for all the kids who can't really be bothered with school to just not go then? because that it pretty much what could happen if there was no law. Its all very well this 'we don't want the nanny state and the government just makes uneccessary rules', but not everyone is as priviliged as you. It may well be better in individual cases to have home schooling or go on holiday during school time - but it probably isn't a good idea to have a free for all

The development of social skills are also an important aspect that home teachers really need to watch - how children interact and learn to interact with their peers and other adults.

Can this be applied across the board, like with right of way, speed limits, age limits for alcohol and all that petty stuff ?

"Is it better to have thousands of sets of parents making their own rules as to how and when a child should attend school?"

Uh, yeah, keydeck. Don't know where you've been (Bavaria is a tiny corner of the universe), but that's the way it's done in the U.S. (homeschooling) and the U.K. (home education or HE).

"...you can take your child and leave."

Reread my post: I did. One of my children was home educated this year.

"Or...you could just bitch about it here, rest in the knowledge that there are others out there with the same problems as you and actually do nothing at all."

Did you mean to be funny or ironic? Seems to me that I'm not the one who's "bitching about it here". My daughter and I voted with our feet. What makes you think that others have the "same problems as me"? What makes you think that home education is the result of "having problems"? Actually, she was doing fine at (one of the Intl. Schools which shall remain nameless). But I am so glad she chose to be home-educated this year -- it's been a fantastic time for both of us.

"...actually do nothing at all."

I can't solve anything on the global level. I can only tell you what's worked for us. It's up to every parent to determine what's right for his/her child.

Interesting, keydeck -- why are you so hostile? It's fascinating.

M.

That's a common misconception, Mr. or Ms. Rat. You don't need to be a "wonderful, super human, bright and effective parent" to teach your child. I am certainly barely adequate. Can you read (obviously you can, since you're reading this)? Can you add and subtract? Well, I can barely add and subtract, but I care that my child learns.

If you really want to know how the system of accountability works for home-educating parents on the national level, you could get plenty of information on the UK sites. Sure -- some kids or parents "abuse the system." There will always be people "abusing" some system or other. Should the entire country adopt one educational method in suspicion of a few "systems abusers", when there may be a large proportion of children who learn better by alternative means?

I started out being very unconfident of my ability to teach my own child. That describes most parents beginning home education. But I got good textbooks and information -- everything can be done on the internet. Anyone who wants to know what books I use feel free to PM me.

M.

question- do home schooled kids remian home schooled right up until university?? or is it just for the primary years?

Why stop with University? Why send them out to be educated? You can teach them everything yourself!!!

While I agree that rules are important, I also think context plays a part. For example, different roads have different speed limits depending on the amount of traffic, the type of area, etc. I believe that some countries have different drinking ages for different types of alcohol (16 for beer, 18 for spirits). And as far as right of way goes - don't get me started!! It's the only reason I don't drive (or bike) here. The American "concept" is ingrained in me and refuses to understand the new German rules. (My tiny 'Merkin brain gets confused every time.)

Just glanced at this, but don't understand what all the fuss is about. Do what the Germans themselves do! Call up and say your son is sick just before you leave. No-one will check. Germans are sick non-stop to get their cleaning done, their lawns mowed and all those other stupid things that are not allowed when normal countries do them. Just play their game.

I was basically quoting the terms you had used to be honest, with slight embellishment.
If you can barely subtract, how are you going to teach the kids complicated maths etc - or are you only talking about the first year or two at school?

and to be honest, there's a big difference between the pros and cons of home schooling and taking the kids off on holiday (which was the original subject of the thread). I agree with a previous post though that 'home schooling' (well the basic maths you are talking about) should be done at home as a complement to what is being done at school

I know you meant to be sarcastic, but that is quite true.

The institutional-school movement is relatively recent. Before families were obligated by law to account for their childrens' education, wealthier families educated the children at home. (Tutors or family members assisted -- school tuition today is much more expensive than full-time private tutors btw). Poor children worked. Since Child Labor Laws were enacted, a modicum of education is now provided by the state. Of course it is necessary for the state to provide education for any child who needs it. But it may not be the best option for all.

The average home today contains more books and educational materials than the average wealthy home during Pre-Industrial-Revolution times. We have computers, we have cultural and scientific resources. We can drive or fly to enrich our childrens' experiences.

Three of my students (I teach private art classes) have always been home-schooled. In the case of 2 of them, I was their first teacher besides their mother, and they were ages 18 and 22. They are in no way 'socially backward' or maladjusted. They are wonderful young people. One of my students completed college on-line this May. She worked full time, and took a full roster of courses.

It's a big world full of choices.

M.

Every mathematics text that you buy for home education has a solutions manual -- just like teachers use in bricks-n-mortar school! My daughter is in 7th grade and is doing algebra, probability, and geometry. I've been stuck more than a few times -- and my daughter has to explain it to me! It's very very good for her. There is also a CD ROM, and we've referred to it a couple of times. The text company also has a website.

There are ways. But I agree that home ed is not for everyone.

M.

see link Pope extols virtues of taking a holiday

er, bit late... she's already told them her plans to go on holiday!
Brings back memories of Sainsburys not letting me have Saturday afternoon off for a hockey match and me simply disappearing at lunchtime with phantom tummy trouble.. didn't go down too well

Ok, here goes...

As has been pointed out this may be suitable for you and your children but it will not be so for many. I personally am not an advocate of home education as against that of a normal school. Perhaps you can give the same academic attention but I feel that ability to interact with others would be negatively affected. I am against it and am entitled to that opinion as you are to yours.


May I ask how old your child is? Was this a joint decision or purely your own?

Absolutely. However not all parents are in a position to know what is best for their children or in a position to provide it even if they did know. That's why we have a school system in every country that I am aware of.


That's not hostility and should not be interpreted as such. Purely direct points & questions. I don't have time for faffing about, that's all.

Edit: I've probably missed loads of other posts on the subject whilst typing this. If points have been made which conflict with what I say here then sorry 'bout that.

How can one person ever teach, to the same level, subjects which are taught at secondary level?? Do you have a degree in all of maths, english, modern languages, physics, chemistry, biology etc??? I do not see any logical explanation whereby one adult or a few tutors can ever teach a child as much as they can learn in the "institution".
Granted, schools are not always as great as they would like to be. Classes can be too full and disruptive but in good schools that should be rare. I have good academic qualifications and so does my husband and in totally different spheres but there is not a chance I would ever presume we could teach my children past early primary. You can always assist with homework and provide additional learning but for heaven's sake, if your child gets to 15 and wants to know answers to highly technical questions re maths or physics how would you answer?? Not to mention the lack of social interaction and the mental stimulation.
Don't risk your children to satisfy your own superiority complex.
Sorry to be harsh but I feel very strongly about it ;-)

marya

At least you put your money where your mouth is...you actually are doing it rather than talking about if it is better or worse. I just see many difficulties with giving a true well-rounded education. But in the end, anyone who goes through that much effort to educate their child has to be putting forth the idea that education is important.

@Marya - presumably though you have to register that you are teaching your kid at home with the education authorities and also presumably she will have still have to sit exams of some description right?

If you feel as strongly as you say, you will educate yourself about what your child is truly learning in school, the amount of time per day, per student that is actually devoted to education. I guarantee that the vast majority of time is wasted -- it is a very poor expenditure of your child's time, and a poor return on financial resources for whichever entity is footing the bill.

"Social interaction" is frequently mentioned as a negative of home education. That can be true if the child is isolated, but very few kids actually live in a bubble. Anyone who has spent any time in a middle school knows that a large proportion of social interaction is negative -- peer-group pressures, "boy-craziness", unkindness, experimentation with smoking, drinking and risky Internet behavior is very common. My child has plenty of friends here and all over the world. But she doesn't have to deal with the mishegoss every day. That said, she's chosen to go back to 'regular school' next year. The choice was always hers.

"I have good academic qualifications and so does my husband and in totally different spheres but there is not a chance I would ever presume we could teach my children past early primary."
Oh, but you CAN. I am living proof of it. I only wish my boys had 'dropped out' in middle school. Their maths would be better. Their academic curiosity would not have been dulled by the strictures of 'canned curricula'.

Oh...there is one area we let slide this year. My daughter's German is...not very good. Leider. But she does have German friends, and her riding lessons are all in German, so it's not a total loss.

"You can always assist with homework and provide additional learning but for heaven's sake, if your child gets to 15 and wants to know answers to highly technical questions re maths or physics how would you answer??"
I have news for you, luv. The teachers at the schools my kids have attended (we have moved a lot), including their present one, can hardly ever answer the highly technical questions re maths or physics that the kids ask. They find their information (for projects or exams) on the Internet.

But I'm not here to convince anyone to home educate, if you don't feel the need for options other than the German government schools. Whatever works to meet the needs of your family...

M.

nice condescending tone with the addition of luv

If you can barely add and subtract, as you said, then how are you going to teach your kids calculus?

I would totally disagree with you. Being as yet childless (!) but of child bearing age so I am told, I have obviously thought about these things and experienced it with friends when I was at school. personally speaking at my school we had excellent teachers who could always answer my technical questions. They enjoyed the challenge. And the home schooled kids were always somewhat odd.

But you seriously, honestly think you can grant your child with as much of a variety and in depth insight into all of the necessary subjects? You must be superwoman. I do not doubt you are intelligent and able but I do doubt you specialised in all of these areas.

The exposure to boys, cigarettes etc is harmless for most and I would advocate a little of real world-ness for them. Coming from a small town where a lot of the kids led sheltered lives it was amazing to see how any went off to uni in the big smoke and went off the rails due to the sudden freedom and exposure to all sorts of evils! School is for learning, and you have to learn yourself that thinking of boys all day might be fun but won't help you pass your exam; smoking may look cool but isn;t good for you and so on.

In the end they will have to go to uni to continue their education if they want to work in any of the professions, so they will be exposed to it in the end. Home schooling just avoids that for a little bit longer.

Look, all, I don't mean to sound condescending. People are questioning me as to how I do this, and I can only say "if I can do it, you can too."

I'm not trying to say it's for everyone. If you are happy with your child's education then good luck, and God speed, and may the Force be with you.

If you feel you need to find other options for your child, I am saying "here's one: home education". If you choose to home educate, it is instructive to see the kind of hostility, incredulity, and derision (like some of the messages here) that you will encounter. You have to be very very sure that it is right for your child.

And it may be right for your child some years, and others he/she will benefit more from bricks-n-mortar school. What is so wrong with having the choice? Why can't parents in Germany be in charge of their kids' education? Sorry -- I think it's horrible that you basically have to relinquish your kids, with very little say about what, how, and on what schedule they learn.

Janet asked how I can teach calculus if I can't subtract. I think I explained how it works with the maths my daughter is doing now. Beyond 6th grade, she became very self-directed. She doesn't want me to "help" her. She is very confident of her skills. She may never be a mathematician, but she's not 'math-phobic' either (unlike her mom). Same story with my sons. I only wish the maths they were getting at school were better...

Re: testing. None of my kids wants to go to German university. (shocking!) UK and US Universities are very very very familiar with home education transcripts. Check it out if you don't believe me. Home-schooled kids take all the same tests as every other student. Don't want to antagonize everyone by saying they do better, but...

M.

@marya
So after one year of home education your daughter has decided to go back to regular school. Interesting...

Incidentally, the word "children" being plural, to form a possessive you need to add apostrophe+s;
therefore, the correct form is children's and not childrens' (sic), as you wrote twice in the same post.

You say that these days one can find everything on the Internet. Indeed one can... in particular
there's no lack of supposedly education-oriented sites that seem to have been put together by
people who are barely literate. Perhaps you could invest in a grammar book for your child instead.

Fight, fight, fight!

Well, mellelisa, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, though it is a purely hypothetical question for you at this point. "Being of child-bearing age" and "experiencing it with friends" evidently leads you to the conclusion that you can make sweeping generalizations about whether home-schooling is good or bad for children, or specifically my child.

"But you seriously, honestly think you can grant your child with as much of a variety and in depth insight into all of the necessary subjects? You must be superwoman. I do not doubt you are intelligent and able but I do doubt you specialised in all of these areas. "

Evidently, you feel it necessary for a homeschooling parent to display his/her resume prominently in order to avoid jeering and sarcastic comments like "you must be superwoman."

I am finished with stating on this thread that I am not superwoman or anything extraordinary. I am only a parent who cares deeply about her child's education, like every other parent here. May I ask, Mellelisa, why you are on this thread? Is it simply to provoke? Because without children of your own, you can hardly be in a position to judge parents' decisions on behalf of their children.

"And the home schooled kids were always somewhat odd."
That's a little unkind. I try to teach my children tolerance of differences -- obviously your attending school did not inure you to harsh generalizations and intolerance. That's sad.

M.

I don't see why everyone is getting so bent out of shape here (and launching attacks!). Marya's daughter made the decision to be home-schooled this year. I'm sure for each negative aspect (less social interaction, parents are not experts in any of the subjects) there are also positives (teacher-student ratio can't be better, benefits of self-directed learning, confidence in own problem-solving skills). Like she said, it's right for some and not for others.

Marya, I'm interested to know how you managed to do home-schooling this year without encountering any legal problems. Or am I mistaken and it is not illegal to take your child out of the German school system?

Yes, it was always her choice to be educated at home or not. But you see, it's all about the choice. She can learn at home, she can learn at school. It's all fine by me.

Clearly, you are all superior in grammar and every other subject. I bow to your dazzling displays of intellect. I have no problem with acknowledging my own flawed education. No doubt any of my children could proofread my posts and correct syntax, grammar, and spelling, and I'm glad they can. No fight here, Janet!

Well, gotta go back to my real life. It's been fun!

M.

BTW, hockeywidow, how did the meeting turn out this morning (was it today?)?

Only reason I would be getting bent out of shape here is because of Marya's sarcastic & condescending tone. Seems like manners is another area where her daughter's education might be slacking.

3 of my cousins once removed are being homeschooled. The oldest one is a jerk, the middle one is lovely and the youngest one is 4 and still has difficulty talking. All three are pretty smart, but my other once-removed cousins socialize better when we are all together.

This is a very condescending thing to say. She's not generalizing, she's talking from experience. I had the same experience. Every home-schooled kid I've ever met was socially inept and arrogant (because mommy and daddy told them their education was better). That is not to say that all are, but the ones I met certainly were, and Kay obviously had a similar experience. Again, this is not an absolute, but it is not uncommon.


Who exactly are you referring to as "all" here? I haven't been bashing home-schooling.

Hmm, I didn't interpret any of her posts as being condescending or sarcastic. Maybe I'm wrong, though, and she was, but if so, I missed it. All I can see is her trying to defend her opinions. With all the sharp comments she has received, I'd expect a lot more sarcasm, to be honest. It's also very easy to misinterpret a person's tone when reading posts in a forum.

Anyway, I've met several home-schooled kids and adults as well. Most were intellectually very bright, some were socially inept, some were totally "normal", if there is such a thing. Basically, a similar mix to what I suppose you'd find in a group of kids schooled in a traditional school system.

Although I'm not sure I'd home-school my kids, I admire those who have done it.

Okay, this is a real question, Red, so I'll try to answer it before I go.

She didn't even finish 6th grade --she came out during Easter break. I had several conferences with the school principal, assistant principal, and school counselor. I had serious concerns about many issues -- from curriculum to school policy, to the, yes, policy of disallowing family vacations if they overlapped the school schedule. Many parents, not just me, voiced concerns on many issues openly or privately. Nothing changed, no matter how many parents complained, the principal just waved off the parents.

My dd got to know my students who were home-schooled, and began to think that that was very cool. I was TOTALLY against the idea -- thinking I could NEVER do it. But I found out more about it, and spoke to a couple of homeschooling parents here. Once I became a little educated about it, it opened up that option.

Of course, the school told me it was against the law!! I didn't ask anyone's permission. I figured that if necessary, I would defend my daughter's choice in court. It never came to that. No one ever served me a summons.

I think that's how the law will change in Germany -- parents will have to challenge it. Believe me, if a healthy percentage of German parents takes this issue to court, the law will change. There are plenty of legal resources out there -- unfortunately most of them Anglo.

One caveat for parents seeking information about home-schooling on line: many of the sites are maintained by fundamentalist Christians who hold to the tenets of creationism. Avoid giving autobio on their sites, unless you want a load of fundy e-mail. There is plenty of useful info, but beware.

My dd decided to go back to school because she wanted to be in theatre productions. In many places, youth theatre is available, but I haven't found any groups here (in English). She is looking forward to being with her friends all day again, but isn't happy about some of the stuff they're doing. I figure it will be a big adjustment, but again, it's her choice.

Okay, I really have to go. My son just said I've been "jacked in" all day. Most of it here!

M.

Wow! I am amazed about how impolite and opinionated people can be about subjects they clearly know little about.

To me life is to hear about others experiences. I have found there is rarely any "right" way in any situation where it comes to raising and educating children.

My sister home schools in Virgina. The town has many home-schoolers and they are some of the best educated children there are. There are so many misconceptions about HS.

I will be moving back to the States because I don't want to have to conform to the German ideas of how to school, let alone name your children. I am a believer in taking your kids out of school if it means a chance for the family to bond or if there is good reason. I am the parent. I am also responsible for making sure my child keeps up if they are in school.

To each their own...I certainly don't plan to send my children to school until they are 10. To me, for them to learn critical thinking is the most important thing. I don't want other people deciding what my child should learn.

The other month I took a hike with my 8 year old HS nephew. We had conversations on the three major types of rocks, wildlife, plate tectonics, the seasons, and many others. What a treat we can incorporate so much into an experience. HS allows learning to be multifaceted. Math doesn't have to be separated out from nature. Subjects come together.

Not to mention, my God, you actually get to spend time with your kids!!!

Wouldnt it be easier just to sit the kids in front of the Discovery channel or something? This sounds like effort.