School won't allow my child 4 days off

I agree schotte, but MTV would be a better choice in terms of education.

the best of jenna jameson would also be a good one at that critical age.

"Well, mellelisa, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, though it is a purely hypothetical question for you at this point.  "Being of child-bearing age" and "experiencing it with friends" evidently leads you to the conclusion that you can make sweeping generalizations about whether home-schooling is good or bad for children, or specifically my child."

Not specifically your child, I would argue most children.  Just because I do not have children does not mean I cannot have opinions or, should I also not be allowed opinions on subjects such as abortion just because I haven't had one even though friends have?  Or can people only have opinions on things they have personal experience with? I hope you aren't teaching your children that.

"Evidently, you feel it necessary for a homeschooling parent to display his/her resume prominently in order to avoid jeering and sarcastic comments like "you must be superwoman." 

No resume would impress me enough to convince me that any single person is qualified enough in every single school taught subject to impart adequate knowledge to any child.  If someone turned up at a school saying, "Hey, let me teach maths, I have a book and it can't be THAT hard, and the kids can teach themselves anyway" THEN the school system might be inadequate enough for everyone to pull their children out of the national system.

"I am finished with stating on this thread that I am not superwoman or anything extraordinary.  I am only a parent who cares deeply about her child's education, like every other parent here.  May I ask, Mellelisa, why you are on this thread?  Is it simply to provoke?  Because without children of your own, you can hardly be in a position to judge parents' decisions on behalf of their children."

Oh I forgot I should be off discussing things that have happened to me directly. Clearly I should never think about children until I have one.  Silly girl. Where  would the world be if people didn't think outwith their own persinal experience?

"And the home schooled kids were always somewhat odd." 
"That's a little unkind.  I try to teach my children tolerance of differences -- obviously your attending school did not inure you to harsh generalizations and intolerance.  That's sad."

No it is a fact. It doesn't mean I am intolerant. Intolerant would be to not invite them to play with me or to tease them.

@mell: Might help in life to open up your self to things you don't know a lot about nor have experienced.

That is different from having an opinion. But an educated and open opinion is always better than one made on emotions and ignorance (in the purest sense of the word)

On the contrary. It isn't made on emotions as I am in no way emotionally involved in any of this unlike yourself and marya. Therefore i am the objective one. You are not ignorant because you disagree with someone. You are however rude, for calling someone ignorant. If you cannot stand to be in a debate without resorting to childish behaviour then that is your issue. You will find that most people think this is a bad idea without necessarily having tried it themselves. It does not make them ignorant or closed off to other ideas. It means they have made a judgement based on the facts they see from the current schooling system (in my case in the Uk where I have to say the system was always fine for me). Also, if the home schooler had a degree in every subject then fine, but I feel it is terribly presumptious to think you can teach a variety of subjects better than people who have specalised in these areas.

I don't think nativeNyer is rude at all, in fact I sent her a pm thanking her and a pm to the woman you were bashing with my apologies. I know what it is like to be bashed in repeatedly on this forum and it sucks. You have stated your case and disagree with her, well I may not be interested in home schooling, you have no children and wondered as well if you were just looking to start something when you were posting on this thread. Why don't you just do us all a favour and drop it.

On a side note, I guess my father is home schooling ~1000 students per year starting this year. They named the new High School in Orlando after him.

To be childish, I have had endless pms at people laughing at this thread and some of the opinions expressed. It doesn't make me right. It just shows what a great variety of people use this forum and some can even go onto threads with which they do not have a direct thread. Some even make crass jokes in them HW. If you can't stand up for your opinions without being accused of being ignorant and inflammatory then this forum must be more German than I had hoped ;-)

@hockeywidow,

Did I miss something? What was the result of the meeting with the Director?

We once ended up filling out the Abmeldeformular in order to take my son out of school for 3 days following Easterbreak and when my son came back everyone welcomed him back even with applause. No paperwork was needed to get him back into school.

So I am very curious how your Director handles this problem.

I went in with honesty and it worked. I really didn't know about applying for holidays. I explained myself fully and he will do a project over the summer as well as send the director a postcard...
I did however mention about him seeing a shrink while he is in Canada and she thought it was a good idea and hopes it helps him to adjust better

hi hi, nice buttering up. Nice one hw!

Hey parent peeps, maybe there should be a thread on "rules for children in Germany". No chat just rules - (people can start specific threads for specific rules if necessary) but that way someone moving to munich with their kids can get an quick and dirty insider list.

For example, stuff I learned this week alone is:

1. Children's names have to be approved by the school. Exceptions can be made for cultural reasons.
2. Kids start school here at seven (?)
3. You need permission to remove them from school, say for holidays, otherwise you might pay hefty fines.
4. It might be illegal to homeschool
5. It might be illegal to leave your kid alone at home until s/he is 12.

etc.

Just a thought in the hopes of sparing another mum/dad a "WTF" moment.

that is a great idea!!! I have had many wtf moments since I have been here.

well done for being honest, as usual a german barks being incredibly worse than his bites.

Ah then you (fresh from you WTF experiences) and some of the other more seasoned parentals get it started

I think it should focus on the actual rules, since so many of them do seem to be WTFish. Maybe another one for cultural stuff (like the birthday parties are small, so dont take it personally if your kids not invited thing I learned last week - hell I was hurt that I wasnt invited...I love those cake and balloony things)

Anyhoo, I leave it to you parentals to sort out if you like. I dont have kids, I could post stuff up but I'd probably be making it up.

That's part of what a kid has to learn, how to deal with the real world, how to interact with other people. How to resist the temptations.


They can, They can look at the books they have at school and complement the school education. You don't have the choices of what books but you can help your kid. Schools in Belgium have Parents board to help the teachers.

About having to follow school schedule, It is not just a question of law but respect for the other kids. At the end of the year, I don't have much problem, the one who leave early would miss the fun activities. But in the middle of the year, that would slow everybody down. the kid which was in an educational trip would have learn stuff but at school, he will have to ask questions about what the others have done. One kid may not have problem because he is smart and catch up fast but another one may not. I agree with the German Law.

You have 6 week of vacation, your kid even more. Don't disturb the school more than necessary.

I hope HW was allowed to leave early. Have a good flight.

Soon - possibly even next year, parents will also have a voice in which textbooks the school will use - mainly because they will also be paying for them (save money and pawn the costs off on the parents)

Good work HW, great to hear everthing worked out for you ...

I only find number 1 on your list a bit strange. Possibly the one about being fined for pulling the kids out of school too - although I don't find it strange to need permission

Yeah, I thought that a German name has to be from an approved list or it must be approved for the birth certificate, not by the school. Unless a foreign student must have his/her name approved when they enrol here.

there is actualy an article in the SZ today about this very subject.

The school simply needs the (authorized) Birth Certificate and will accept whatever is on it. However, in Germany, at least, a name must be "approved" prior to being certificated at birth, either because it exists on a list of accepted names, or there are cultural or family reasons for the naming of the child...

YL6

If you need to ask, than means they should be able to say Yes or No.
If you have a rule, you need consequence when you break it.
Making the kid do lines would not be fair.

sorry i disagree with you totaly. did you see how the xmas holiday in bayern was planned last year? and as for school being important, why the buggery do they have "hitzefrei" hier? any brit will tell you, we just moved the class onto the playing field when it got tot hot (i also think we could remove our ties and didnt have to wear a blazer...), we didnt get a free day. its a modern world, and being flexible is important too us all. and if a family takes their kid two days or four days earlier out of school beacause that is the only way they can afford a holiday then that should be ok.

Hitzefrei in our school means classes end at 11:20 - which they do most days anyway.

which is another bug-bear, part time schools, no uniforms, and if your unlucky (which im not i must say) teachers with attitude.

Well I know I'm gonna make myself unpopular but I simply have to say it. I have read this thread and don't see what issue you guys have with Mellisa. I also am not a mother and I think it should be ok to have an opinion on something even if you don't belong to a certain group being represented - in this case parents. I also don't see her words as being sarcastic in any way.

I know that it is very difficult for someone who hasn't experienced parenthood to understand what it must be like to have the full responsibility of parenthood and the fear it includes of making a mistake somewhere along the line. Many parents feel threatend immediately when you even only imply that they should *maybe possibly perhaps* consider doing things differently than they are doing and understandably so. Being a parent is such hard work! Still I don't think it's right to critize her for thinking differently. It's just her opinion.

I myself think there's nothing wrong with teaching your kid at home, but it shouldn't be the only influences s/he is getting. I don't think a parent needs to be an expert in all fields to be able to teach their kids. If you read some of the ads for teachers in newspapers it is shocking and you start worrying about the education your child might be getting! Many teachers aren't even required to hold a degree in teaching or pedagogic skills and these people end up teaching the next generation. Well then mom and dad who loves their children and has patience and understanding for their child is a better bet anytime.

I also don't understand why the government here is so strict with things like these - which name a child is allowed to have - but allows people that are not qualified teachers to teach children at schools.

MB - I think you are fine, as is Mellisa. Being a parent myself, my humble opinion is one of the worst mistakes we can make is to not take others (parents and not) opinions into consideration. Of course , this doesn't only apply to parenting. But people tend to get pretty defensive of their kids - which is also a good thing since their job is to protect them as much as possible.

I haven't seen a job ad for a teacher here in Germany that did not require teaching credentials, I am not a big fan of home schooling either, not only because of the unrealistic (for many) expectations / stress placed on the home teacher (usually the mother) I honestly believe that the system can be supplemented without having to remove a child from school. But every parent has to decide for them selves what they do - unless they are causing serious damage to their childs mental or emotional health of course (after all - none of our parents were perfect either).

Hummm...could it be posts like that causing the reaction.

I have no problem with others disagreeing. I love a good discussion. But opinion based on complete lack of knowledge holds no weight with me.

Mella states she feels strongly about this. Based on what? We know she has no children. Does she even know anyone who has ever been homeschooled? I find her presumptions to be baseless and completely devoid of facts. Most US (I can only speak for the US) home-schooled children consistantly score better on exams than most regularly schooled children.

In saying that I am not saying either situation is better. To each their own based on their needs and the needs of the child. But don't slam what you don't know.

This is one statistic that I find highly controversial. Obviously, if a parent is home schooling the child, the child has two things minimally 1) a stay at home parent 2) a home. As well as a parent who is interested in the education of the child. If you used these same criteria for all non-home school children, I would expect an even higher score for them. The sample that you use for your statistics is biased and these other factors have more to do with the higher test scores than the fact that they are home-schooled.

@BrokenM : I absolutely agree with you as to sample pooling. No argument there. However, I would suggest (no studies to back it up), that HS kids generally do reasonably well.

.

"I have no problem with others disagreeing. I love a good discussion. But opinion based on complete lack of knowledge holds no weight with me."

Where is the lack of knowldege?? Do you mean experience? As I have said, you do not need actual hands on experience to have an opinion. And having been through the education system myself means that I should be allowed an opinion on whether I find it suitable and whether it did me justice, and obviously whether I would do it to my own hypothetical chldren. Do not get me wrong, there were many problems with schools but I still would prefer to have been through that than have stayed at home with my mother and only her opinions. You would have to be very non biased to ensure your child was exposed to a variety of opinions on issues such as politics to make sure they come out knowing, for instance, about different religions and not just their own; or different political institutions. I just find it impossible to believe any normal child would be better off having limited access to knowledge pools and the lack of social interaction.

"Mella states she feels strongly about this. Based on what? We know she has no children. Does she even know anyone who has ever been homeschooled? I find her presumptions to be baseless and completely devoid of facts. Most US (I can only speak for the US) home-schooled children consistantly score better on exams than most regularly schooled children."

If you read back you will see that I said I knew kids when I was growing up who had been home schooled. And they didn't do better than those of us at school. In fact they are still sitting in that same little town now whilst most of the school went off to pastures new and the dreaded institutions with their shocking teaching methods. Heaven knows how normal kids make it in the world? And that qualifies as sarcastic.

Also, many States require HS kids to take the state exams to show they are keeping up.

I agree that they do well, but I think it is despite the home schooling, not due to the home schooling. Personally, I believe that the best thing that any country can offer people is education. The more educated the society becomes, the better quality of life that group has...What bothers me about home-schooling is that you are creating an island of knowledge with your children. Isolating them from other learning tools, interaction with other children, the ability to see that there are different approaches to problems and you deprive the leadership your child (if they are the better in the class) may offer to other children. If you assume (which I do not) that the home school children are the best in the class, you are depriving the other students in the class the ability to be driven to a higher standard. Resulting in a decreased group of students (as I believe that students learn almost as much if not more from their fellow students as from their teachers) who will also form the society in which your child will be a part of in the future. As I wrote before, I think every parent should home school their child in addition to the normal school program that your child attends.

Academic Statistics on Homeschooling

@NativeNYer

That quote you pointed out above is taken totally out of context. There were many condescending remarks by marya that preceded it. In fact, both have been sarcastic and condescending. Don't take sides.


In my experience, having taught science at the elementary school level, experience in the subject matter is far more important than any pedagogic training. I'm not saying that's not important for some people, but I don't think it's as important as command of the material. I never studied childhood education, but not only did my kids absolutely love me, they retained a large majority of the material and would surprise me with their command of it months later. I do find it surprising to hear that German schoolteachers aren't required to have pedagogic training, since even chimney sweeps have to have formal training here.


This is the comment that scares me most about the whole home teaching thing. Do you have any idea how riddled with mistakes your average solutions manual is? I've even seen solutions manuals that are over 60% wrong answers. Who is going to look at the answer with your child and recognize its error if he/she doesn't?

Just to clarify an often referred to misconception, most HS children are socially interactive. For example, my nephew has 2 hour "group" courses with other HS parents, win which 5 to 10 HS kids participate, every day. They often are on sports teams. Many school distrists are now allowing HS kids to join in the sports/art. Actually because they can do heir school work usually in less time (no commuting, class changing,etc) , there is often a lot of time for additional extra-curricular activities.

Of course I wish for a society where there was a realistic teacher to student ratio, need for minimal time to be spent on discipline, and teaching that recognised that not every kid learns in the same way. But that it not always the case.

Now my own opinion is that I think critical thinking is the most important tool one can learn. I wish I had learned more of it growing up. So yes I personally wouldn't like the idea of others having 8 hours a day influence on my kids.

Stop talking about critical thinking as though it would necessarily bring people to the conclusion that home schooling is great if they use it. Both sides have their advantages and disadvantages.

Some quotes from

Academic Statistics on Homeschooling

@IPJ: My point about critical thinking, is that I what my kids to be able to not just accept what a teacher, friend, whatever...states as fact.

@Hyde: Thanks for the studies

You do not think that critical thnking comes from being exposed to a variety of opinions and the clash of your ideas with someone elses? That is what you get at school. Different teachers with different opinions. You may not agree with them but you will then realise WHY you do not agree. Thus developing your ability to step back and think about an area. If you are only exposed to your mum/dad/tutor and her opinion (assuming she is not totally un-biased) how do you develop in that direction? Granted you can do all sorts of quizzes and exercises but real life critical thinking comes from the exposure to the world and all the different people and opinions you encounter out there. Most of my ability at that comes from English at school. maths and then university.

i remember going home and disagreeing with my parents on their political beliefs. they were disgusted and blamed the school. It probably was because of school.as i had been exposed to various teachers each with different political undercurrents. if I had stayed at home I think it would have been a lot harder for me to stand back and realise that my parents' view might not be the only one.

Do you want them to also question what you say?

(Really, just a question - lots of parents might want their kids to challenge the world, but would freak if their kids were to question their own authority)

@NNYer

Yes, well, you'll have to teach that to your kids whether they're home schooled or not. That's my biggest gripe about public education - that there is no formal training in logic and reasoning skills.

I personally think that home schooling should be a suppliment to a kids education, not the sole education itself. The averages on public school students are so low, because they include all those students with parents who don't care in addition to those who do. The home schooled kids sample is biased, because it necessarily only contains kids whose parents do care.

@DD: Yes I would. Not saying I would always like it, but you have to be open to it.

I believe you - but I know (knew) people in the states who wanted to home school precisely to keep their kids from devloping "differing" ideas about life and what their parents thought.

Although - I know a few parents (ok 2 sets personally) here now who encourage their kids to question (the school) authority. These same parents will not tolerate the kids questioning them.

Also the kids which are not good enough to be home schooled are not. Public school are for all.

About critical thinking, that's a worry about HS, there is no oversight about what the children are taught. They may be able to give enough right answer to pass the tests but that does not means they are taught objectively. In school, If a teacher try to modify the curriculum according his/her belief, there will be parents to complain.
In HS, what the parent believes, the kids will.

@IPJ

Good point, both are very important, maybe you are just a natural talent with the kids! Kids can judge the character of a person very well, I believe.

Yes I've seen these ads a couple of times, not for public schools though - mostly for private schools. I applied for a job like that as well at a private English school in Starnberg. I always wanted to work with multi-national kids, but am no teacher. I have a degree, sure, but it's not in teaching and can show no pedagogical qualification. They considered me immediately and the requirements in their ad did not include me having to be a qualified teacher at all! They are one of the most expensive schools around as well! I still check now and then hoping to find something similar and come across many ads like these. At the same time I have a bad feeling about it knowing that I am not a qualified teacher - would I be good for them or mess up their education? Maybe it's better that I'm into a totally different field of work afterall.

Well, clearly, this topic has diverged entirely from the original subject brought up by Hockeywidow. And I'm so glad things worked out well for her family.

I can understand why people thought I was being sarcastic, or whatever other flaws real or imagined. It's true -- I admit to being shocked that parents are so beaten by this system that they have to grovel, lie, and cut baroque deals with school officials and teachers just to remove a child from class for a few days.

But -- it is really not my issue or problem. It was not my place to foment civil unrest, because my children are not involved (but if they were...). I apologize for any discomfort I caused. It is up to each parent to decide how to deal with a child's situation.

As to the subject of homeschooling: I have heard all the tired sweeping generalizations before. The thing about no "socialization", or "home schooled kids are odd", or "you're ruining her life" or "YOU will have no life" (meaning me), or the thing about homeschooled kids swallowing the opinions of the homeschooling parent hook, line and sinker as if by some brainwashing process.

These notions truly are based on no solid information, and if there is any experience, it is purely anecdotal. Homeschooling parents will continue to teach their children as they think best despite the negative comments.

The notion I really think is funny, though, is the one about the homeschooled kids "only hearing one parent's opinion." Believe me, there exists hardly in the world a more opinionated being than a 7th grade girl! Do you really really think that homeschooled teenagers accept their parents opinions to a greater degree than other teens do? I'm sorry, that's just funny. Anyone who knows any of my kids would think that's hysterically funny. They just don't come more opinionated. And what is the effect of spending my days with such an opinionated young person? I am exhausted all the time. I guess that's the only downside I can think of about homeschooling. It's very energy-intensive.

Re: the comment about mistakes in textbook solutions manuals: Yes! You are absolutely correct about that! We have found mistakes in the texts my daughter is using. We check and recheck our work -- it's excellent practice, and also encourages the enquiring and critical impulse. The (homeschool) text manufacturer urges all users to contact them in the event of error detection. Imagine my daughter's feeling of triumph -- she feels very smart and clever! No longer math-phobic! Reads her Sciences and Language Arts carefully -- proofreading the text publisher! It's all good.

To all the folks who sent me private messages in support: Thank you very much. I assure you, I didn't take any of it personally. I just chalk it up to...
...well, let's just let it go, shall we?

M.

Back on the topic of taking kids out of school, here is the official page of the rules for taking out of kids from Gymnasium. It is in german but if you have kids in Gymnasium, this shouldn´t be too difficult to translate.