Leaving kids home alone is ok in Germany, it seems

So, I was sitting at the Elternbeirat (PTA) "End of the Year" dinner tonight (at a nummy Indian place the wednesday curry night has gone to and the guy remembered me even though I didn't eat that night the wednesday crowd was there and brought me an unbearably hot curry).

Anyway, I end up sitting across the table from the principal. A strange woman who prefers to speak to the men, giggles alot and talks constantly about how things were at her "old school" in Hasenburgl. Whatever.

At some point in the evening we get on the discussion of going out (started when she mentioned taking her bottle of prosecco to the fireworks on saturday - more power to her). And I mention how difficult it is here to go out since it is so difficult to find a babysitter.

Her answer was - from the time her youngest was 4, (the oldest was, if I remember and can add correctly, about 7), she left the boys at home ALONE and would go out with her husband. After looking a bit shocked (this is, after all, the principal and I am trying to diplomatically get my kid out of her classes next year) I tried to recover my composure by saying somthing along the lines of "Well, I suppose if a neighbor has a babyphone...". "Oh No!" she countered, apparently the kids knew they could go to a neighbor if they needed something, but the neighbor was not a "babysitter". I asked about the legalities, but apparently, "It is legal to leave your children at home unsupervised. "

Ok, I think, trying to skip this part of the conversation, when she mentions how she sent her kids off on a train trip just after her youngest turned 5. She put them on the train and told the conductor where they had to get off. Apparently the conductor got off a stop before they did and told them simply that theirs was the next stop.

At this point in time the guy (German- I am the only "nasty foreigner" on the PTA right now) next to me is silently screaming, my eyes are round in shock, the other PTA guy across the table is mentioning the assults on kids that do not get into the papers, and she (this is the PRINCIPAL of the school) mentions how when her youngest turned 6 she let him ride his bike alone to the swimming pools, she figured he could swim, and how cool it was that he turned up 2 hours later.

So I guess I am doing it all wrong - walking my kids to school, taking them to sport stuff myself, checking their homework, making sure they are in bed at the right time, reading to them before hand, not letting them watch tv. ... .

By the way, the last thing she mentioned was how her kids (one now 15, not sure if this is the oldest or youngest) are only allowed to smoke on the balcony.

They are ALLOWED to smoke ?!?!??!

Go figure.

I honestly hope that she was exaggerating for shock value, because that is seriously messed up!

P.S.
DDBug--If you need a babysitter, you give me a call! Once I arrive, that is... We can set up an exchange: I can ask you all of the dumb questions I want, and you can leave your kids with me when you need a night out. Whad'ya say?

She was dead serious about it all. I was just pleased that the others at the table seemed to be as shocked as I was.

I once read an article about the safety of the road between home and school. Before, kids were walking as many other people, there was plenty of people on the street, it was safe. Now people are driving because they fear for their kids, that causes accidents at the school drop out and now the raod are less safe because there are less people walking on them.

I suppose you know where she lives? At what age would you let your kids do those things? Also the situation 10 years ago was not the same than nowadays. 20 years ago,, when I was 12, I was going to school in the big city in bus alone. I don't remember when I started going to school by myself.

I'm not altogether surprised. At my son's kindergarten kids are allowed to walk home alone at 6. Admittedly their houses are not far away but so many nasty things happen around the corner from a kid's house. There is one beautiful, blonde, friendly little girl who walks home everyday and I have to bite my tongue every time. This is one German attribute I won't be picking up.

I wasn't surprised about them walking home alone from school or kindergarden (she never mentioned that) I was freaked out about her leaving her four year old at home alone with a seven year old while they "went out". Now, I trust my 8 year old to stay home by himself if I run get a magazine or something, but not in charge of a four year old. And I won't let my 8 year old go alone to the swimming pools, maybe next year with a friend after serious swimming and safety lessons. And no way in hell would I put my kids at this age on a train alone!

Could be a German attitude, I was raised in the same way.

It wasn't for lack of love or attention as they tested me slowly and guaged how much responsibility I could handle. They would leave a strict set of rules and guidelines and I knew that if they were broken I wouldn't be left alone again. Personally, I enjoyed feeling "all grown up" and even got paid for looking after myself so would never have done something to jeopardize my freedom.

I'm not a parent but would say children are often a lot smarter than we give them credit for. A parent should also know their own child a lot better than a virtual stranger and I highly doubt this woman left it to chance that her children would just show up.

Blimey! I wouldn't leave our 10 year old in charge of an ice cream... but that's probably because I know her all too well... and what type of chaos she likes to cause.

Silva - would your parents have let you go swimming by yourself on the day you turned 6 or put you on a train to Asschaffenburg alone? All this would be grounds for child neglect charges in the states. Just freaky.

And from the other parents in the Beirat I heard a few unnerving stories of how many kids have been "approached" by strangers in the area, and "events" that have happened at the neighboring grade school - this stuff just doesn't make the news.

Making a snap judgement it sounds like the mother in DDBug's post is more interested in freeing up her own time rather than engaged in some kind of maturing confidence building excerise for her kids.

My son (7) lives in a small village in the country and walks to school, but always with 3 other kids. They have strict instructions to stay together all the way, it takes about 10 minutes. The school recommends that the kids all pair up for walking to and from school.

As to leaving my two lunatics, son (7) and daughter (5) at home alone; no way Jose. It's fine as long as nothing happens but you only need a worst case scenario to happen once and you'll regret it for the rest of your life.

Home Alone? Bugger me...with mine...no house left even after 10 minutes!!

I remember about 15 years ago in Canada, my aunt would leave my cousins home after they got off the bus( they lived in the country) for 45 minutes until she got home from work. Their grandparents lived down the road and all was safe...
They were playing in the creek by the house, looking at tadpoles and a drunk driver came down the country road and killed my 5 year old cousin while her older brother 7 watched.

DDBUG, as always it's a judgement call. I was an only child, my parents were quite strict and I knew if I got out of line I would be in trouble. I don't remember at what age I went swimming alone but at 7 I was allowed to fly to Toronto from Calgary to visit my grandmother on my own. I specifically remember the rules and if anything I behaved even better than I would have had my parents been there to supervise me. I even traded my desert in for an apple (something I would never do now ) because I didn't want the sugar to make me hyperactive. The worst I think I ever did when left alone was stay up a little later but even that had repercussions if I was tired and grumpy the next day my parents would know and consequently not leave me alone the next time.

That being said it's impossible to rule out the actions of third parties. I agree that in case of emergencies a young child is ill equipped to deal with consequences but as you said there was a neighbour that could be called be that the case.

I took my first flight when I was five, as did my son. But the airline stewardesses were there for me, and the airlines now charge a "babysitting" fee and have amazing safety / security setups (to make sure the right person gets the kid).

From what I understood - the neighbor wasn't informed about babysitting, the kids were just told that's where they could go if anything happened. What if the neighbor went out? Even with a babyphone, a loud crash or a choking noise could indicate a situation that could only be handled in time by someone in the apartment.

Just my paranoia I suppose - but I would hate to lose my kids because I left them home and something happened. I would even hate to leave them home and have them get scared (my youngest is only 4).

I have also heard many reports (nothing from any official sources, though) that Munich has an alarmingly high rate of child abuse, with a very high number of convicted paedophiles living in the city. Apparently, very little of what happens ever gets reported. Not sure how much of this is truth or hysteria, though.

i remember walking home from kindergarten alone and i was 5. i remember my mom walking me a few times, sort of training me, then eventually i did it alone. that was in san diego too!

I believe it is illegal to leave kids home alone under any circumstances below the age of 14, and up to 16 they can't be alone after midnight... Let me go find if this is correct...

If a teacher (no less a principal) is suggesting she left young kids home alone I'd be inclined to report her...

re: the kids smoking - my parents let me smoke in the house from when i was 14
i guess with hindsight it seems a little bit generous, but if they hadn't let me smoke in the house, then i would have just sneaked out and smoked outside.
you know how teenagers are.

YL6 - I have already checked with the jugendamt on this (regarding another set of parents in the school) and the ASD (allgemein sozial dienst) where I was referred to had absolutely no problems with it. In her words "lots of parents probably do that". Apparently it's not worth reporting on a parent unless the child's health and welfare is in immediate or acute danger and you are willing to have the parents know you did it.

I hope you can find some other information though, I think she (the ASD lady) was incredibly blase about the whole thing (then again, also makes you wonder what she deals with if she thinks that is no big deal).

DDBug, I understand your position, my point is only that we are quick to judge especially in cases where children are involved (as is better to err on the side of caution) when we don't have all the facts. My friends parents made the same assumption about me when she told them I was allowed to look after myself, which couldn't have been further from the truth. They had never met my parents and barely knew me and based on that fact alone decided I had been neglected. The same people that would drink and smoke (large quantities) in front of their children

That being said, my parents recently admitted that in retrospect they think they made me grow up too fast. I don't mind as I'm more than making up for it now

As an experienced parent, I could only add that you really don't know how to raise kids until you've done it a couple of times, then it's too late.

My father used to say (I think it was his way of apologizing): "The worst people to raise kids are parents"

That's a sad story, but it's doubtful that having the parents at home would have changed things. The kids still probably would have been playing outside while the parents were inside, maybe even watching from a window. But that doesn't stop 900 kg of metal from crashing...

i dont do that because im scared something will happen. we sometimes leave the boys infront of the telly for 15 mins (the ultimate babysister) while one of us drops the other of at the u-bahn, but oscar is old enough for that amount of time. i thought you could lose your kids if you left them alone. what happens if there is a fire? i shudder to think about this anymore.

I always see kids under the age of 10 coming home from school on the S-bahn and wonder if the teachers take them to the train and if their parents pick them up at the station. Then I see them get off at Marienplatz and switch to the U-Bahn and I think, "probably not."

I think this is scary- I am a strong believer that parents should teach their children how to grow wings and let them fly, but there are other ways of making your children independent that don't involve taking safety risks. I can't even stand it when my sister lets her kids sit in the tub without being in the room with them, even if the water is at a safe level..

MoiLV, you dont have any kids of your own? from what your writting it sounds like it. you get used to having to be able to do things such as leaving the kids in the bath while you prepare their supper. otherwise you'd flip. as for kids under 10 using public transport alone where is the problem? you teach them the route and do it a couple of times and then let them get on with it. dont forget that like rape, most abuse cases are from near family and friends and nieghbours.

You're right. I don't have kids. I know nothing.

nobody does mate.
the buggers dont come with an instruction manual.
nor a reciept to exchange them for that 16 piece dinner set you liked.
and without a bloody guarantee.

Man, what is it with the debates about approaches to children these last couple of days?

Most disagreements in parenting philosophy have everything to do with differing approaches to the question of independence. This seems to be the case in the present discussion.

There are things Germans are willing to allow their children to do on their own that I would not allow my child to do on her own. But then, I'd be much more likely to let her ride the U-bahn alone in Munich than I would be to allow her to ride the Chicago El on her own. So a lot of this probably has to do with wider cultural differences.

And again, as gideon says--most instances of abuse occur at the hands of someone much closer to home than is comfortable to admit. That doesn't make abuse at the hands of strangers any less horrific, but it is a point well worth stressing.

well, ragerdless I think the principal of this school is nutty for leaving her kids home alone.. the German child protection agency (or whatever you 'd call it) may think nothing of it, but if the woman pisses off with her husband and doesn't inform anyone that her children are left alone in the apartment - what happens if there's a fire?

It reminds me of my brother's apartment- he has a sticker outside his door with a picture of cats, dogs, birds and flames and says "in case of fire please save my 2 cats and 1 dog".. can you imagine, if leaving young children alone in the apartment is "culturally" ok, that people have these stickers on their doors, but the words "cats" and "dogs" are replaced with "sons" and "daughters" ???

I agree, MoiLV, but then, I'm approaching it all as a non-German. I don't let my girl walk to school on her own, though I will let her walk the last 3 blocks with friends. And she's 8.

I have left her at home alone for brief periods of time, but only in instances when she could easily come to me (that is, I'm in the same building), and only after detailed instructions as to what to do if anything goes wrong. She's requested same, at times. It makes her feel like she's a big kid...which she is.

Wouldn't do it to go have a night out on the town, though.

Nobody think that maybe this person was boasting and fabricating a bit? She's the principal, at the PTA, and discussing her own kids, therefore wants to maek out that they are really mature, well behaved etc etc etc. Make out that shes a great mum, with well bought up kids, but also that its almost effortless for her - hence saying she goes out and leaves them alone. She might be being a little economical with the truth, and just talking for show. Does she live in Schwabing by chance?

@DR...yeah, I was just taking it all at face value...and I do think there's a real difference re: what German parents, as a rule, seem to see as appropriate for children, and what I, personally, would allow. This after 2 years of meine tochter in a German Grundschule, not to mention a fair few contact hours with German kids in my own line of work.

Whether the parent in question was telling the unembellished truth or not, there is a real difference re: American & German attitudes toward independence, and when it should be assumed re: what activities. Couldn't speak so much for English/Canadian, etc. In short, they're let to fend for themselves earlier, as a general rule. Again, I suspect part of this is due to the appearance, mistaken or no, of general crimelessness, at least locally. I think if most German parents found themselves in Chicago, they'd change their attitudes toward what their children can handle on their own quick, quick smart.

I don't think she lives in Schwabing, but the school is. Her last school was in Hasenburgl.

If she wanted to impress how perfect her kids were, I don't think she would have mentioned making them smoke on the balcony. Or maybe ? Who knows.

Hasenbergl?

Tis where my own sprog goes.

Inneresting...

Hm, name Rester ring a bell?

I have no kids yet (well, not for the next two weeks or so), but I remember having a conversation with someone at the Amerika Haus 4th of July party about how American kids are often overprotected now.

Case in point: organized "walks to school" in the suburbs, where they put all the kids in yellow safety vests and a few adults sort of herd them in a group to the school a few blocks away. It's like a walking car pool.

Frightening that people feel they have to do this to keep their kids safe. Maybe it's necessary, but I, too, walked to the suburban elementary school starting at maybe 6 years old, usually with siblings or friends but not adults. We were told not to talk to strangers or approach strangers in cars, obviously.

Now, at my parents' (large, midwestern, suburban) church, you have to check your kid into Sunday School as if at a coat check! Only the adult with the claim ticket can pick up the child. I guess the church is worried about liability in case a non-custodial parent shows up and tries to take the child during the service, for example. Sad, sad.

I did some more research. There does not seem to be a defined age when you can or cannot leave a child alone. But there are guidelines. It would seem "reasonable" to visually check a child of four every 10-15 minutes, and a child of six at least every 30 minutes. Not checking is not illegal, but if something happened and you had not checked within this time then you are perceived to have neglected your parental responsibilities. Such responsibilities include the requirement to protect your child, whatever age from risk. The level of this protection depends not only simply on the age of the child, but also his/her stage of development. If your kid was a "street-kid" for example then the liabilities to look after him/her might be less than if you had a shy flower to deal with...

YL6

@YL6

this is the first time in all my time here in germany that i've heard of no law for something important, and not only that be they ask people to use their own discretion and common sense. I MUST SIT DOWN.

I can only agree. I did say "it does not seem..." I'm still trying to check this out...

I think according to the law kids have to be 12 before they can be left alone- but someone should check on this. It is a German habit to leave kids alone - incomprehensible - they don't give a damn about the welfare of little ones but keep them out of school till they can physically defend themselves on the playground at seven, let them repeat endless years of schooling and end up doing their washing for them when they are in their twenties. As I see it there are two kinds of mothers, the ones who are all dressed up with a kid in daycare and a full-time job and a boyfriend and plump Bavarian housewifes with a lettuce and a packet of sausage on a bicycle and a couple of kids in tow which they regularly leave to their on devices. Worst of all are the rucksack carrying enormous pram-pushing variety with the entire kitchen sink and some screaming offspring with a lump of pretzel in one hand and a bottle of tea in the other. Pram is full of replacement pretzel and tea and rucksack full of shopping to look environmentally friendly and save a few cents on a plastic bag. Ugh!

I have just recently started letting my 8 year old play outside unsupervised. When we first got here he didn't speak the language and I was scared. But now he loves to play around with the other kids in the complex. Still have to know where he is but then again, he is just a kid...

Nicky - I thought it was 12 as well, but no one has been able to find that in writing anywhere. Must be an urban myth.

I used to walk to school when I was 6. It was normal at the time for most kids where I grew up, though that is over 25 years ago now.

walking to school and leaving kids alone at night so you can go out are two different things (IMHO)

All that said and done, I let my boys out alone to the corner store today (we were out of cat food and there is a mom and pop place run by a really nice afghani guy who knows us by name). They took the money, walked down, bought 1 tin of cat food and a few little packets of gummi bears and walked home.

My hubby asked why I didn't send them to the drug store - but I didn't feel comfortable letting my four year old go out alone with my 8 year old around a corner and over two streets. To much of a chance for distraction. Not to mention the temptations in the drugstore!

I agree. Walking to school with other kids of the same age or older or going to a store with a mother expecting them back soon are completely different from leaving kids alone at night.

after spending alot of time over my holiday with my 5 year old niece and 4 year old nefew- I would NEVER leave those two alone! They are a handful (in a good way) all the time. Besides, my niece has probably read the laws, and will tell you its wrong, illegal or immoral- everything with her is a big discussion! Okay, I don't have my own kids, but love/hate kids, and when I am incharge would never want anything to happen to the kids in charge.

No, you don't. I do the same. My older one will be ten in November and it is just recently (about a year) when he started to do things like going to the library alone or stuff like that. I think I would never forgive myself if something happened to him while he is alone.

A few posts here seem to put the responsibility for children's safety firmly at the door of women. Is that a reflection of the way society seems to work in Germany or a reflection on the attitudes of the posters? Just curious.