My only pet pieve (and I hate to sound like a habitually negative person - I'm not), is that I already pay outrageous taxes for everything. I get nailed at every turn.. I have to pay a steuerberater just to keep them from taking more than I can possibly afford.
I thought all these taxes were supposed to go to things like health care and public services. But I still seem to have pay for each service, and seemingly equally or more than in other countries with much lower taxation.. and what you get for it is often poor quality.
I have to pay dearly for a private school for my kid (he is fluent in german)because the acedemic standards in the public schools here are far below that in the U.S. or UK., but I still have to pay taxes that pay for my kid to attend public schools. Have to pay tax for health care, but still have to pay for health care separately. Have to pay unemployment benefits, but will never be eligible for it. Paying 'Social Security', but will never get a dime back. Even those that are elegible for retirement benefits have a maximum payback that is only a fraction of what they contributed.. I have one (rather wealthy) friend who has in his entire career paid several Million euros into the system. For that contribution, he's eligible for max €3000/mo at retirement.
Maybe I'm missing something. I seem to be one of the few (on this forum, at least) who recognizes this. Most of my local friends and neighbors all seem to agree completely (German or not).
I was just watching a news documentary about the SPD.. Whoa.. Big trouble there.
J
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Excessive German taxes
QUOTE (Jeffn @ Jul 2 2005, 9:10 pm)
My only pet pieve (and I hate to sound like a habitually negative person - I'm not), is that I already pay outrageous taxes for everything.
I thought all these taxes were supposed to go to things like health care and public services. But I still seem to have pay for each service, and seemingly equally or more than in other countries with much lower taxation.. and what you get for it is often poor quality.
J
I thought all these taxes were supposed to go to things like health care and public services. But I still seem to have pay for each service, and seemingly equally or more than in other countries with much lower taxation.. and what you get for it is often poor quality.
J
Jeffn,
Yes...this is probably a topic (German taxes) that takes us off thread, however, I
totally agree with you in terms of the amount of taxes. In America, I paid about 28%
like everyone else, and got my interest deduction for my mortgage interest payments
(not happening here!).
I pay taxes for East Germans, for a retirement that i probably won't use (I don't
plan to retire here), taxes for ambulatory care I will not use in this country, and on
and on. I am paying nearly 50% taxes every month to have the priviledge of living
here...but I still prefer living in Europe more than the USA...
I dis-agree with the education system comment you made, however. I'm not sure
about the UK education system, however, I raised a kid in the US system and it
does NOT prepare you for life - parents have to play a much more prominent role
in that aspect of creating decent adults. I suppose that is the same here, however,
from what I've seen of the kids coming out of the German school system - beat USA
kids (the average ones) hands down on cultural awarenets, intellectual curiosity,
and overall knowledge. In my opinion.
-L.
QUOTE (Levon @ Jul 3 2005, 8:37 am)
I pay ... for a retirement that i probably won't use (I don't
plan to retire here)
plan to retire here)
when you leave, you can apply to have your contributions refunded. YOu should not lose out.
QUOTE (Levon @ Jul 3 2005, 8:37 am)
I pay ... taxes for ambulatory care I will not use in this country
are you sure you will never use the health system here? Are you a superhero, who is never injured and never falls sick?
QUOTE (The Artful Dodger @ Jul 3 2005, 3:00 pm)
are you sure you will never use the health system here? Are you a superhero, who is never injured and never falls sick?
No - by ambulatory care, I mean the part of my paycheck that goes to nursing care
when I "retire". I don't plan to retire here, so the payments will not be utilized by me.
Levon, sorry, but I can't help but soapbox on this...
Not sure what you see, but these are my observations:
Bear in mind that we live in a 'fringe' area, a small community, but still within Kreis München... But here's what I see:
In our neighborhood, the 6-10 yr old kids here can barely read & write. My kid (9) has been (basic) reading and writing since he was 6. My son went to kindergarten in California where he learned the basic English R's. My wife is German, so my son is also fluent in German. We (my wife, actually) helped him with his German reading and writing.
He's a pretty normal kid. I really don't think he's exceptionally talented or anything. Lots of the kids we knew in California could also basically read and write at 6yrs.
Anyway, when we first moved here from CA (for my wife it was 'coming back'), we naturally first took him to the local public school.
Well, they evaluated him (for three days!), and afterwards (to my utter dismay), told us he is a problem child, and chastised us for his ability to read and write, and elementary math and science skills, citing that this is bad for young kids, because because he'll be bored and will be disruptive in class and that will affect his ability to learn. ... ... Huh?
They told us (in no uncertain terms) that he will have problems throughout his education because of this, and we should have never allowed that level of education so early.
They admitted that legally, they had to take him, but it would be preferable that he attend a different 'alternative' school of some sort. ... ... ... huh? Did I hear this right? If my wife wasn't German, I'd chalk all this up to a translation error. Nope, it's what they said.
My sense is that the problems would be theirs, not his (more work for them) and the preference for him to school elsewhere is also theirs, and not because it's in the best interests of the child. They only care about minimizing their workload. This is consistent with what I see in German culture - shoot for the least complicated solution - whatever is easiest (and even my German wife concurs with this view).
So, we took him to several (private) schools, and received warmer receptions at all of them. Then we took him to BIS. They evaluated him for ONE HOUR, and enthusiastically accepted him (at a time when there were no vacancies).
Today, my son loves going to school, is well-adjusted, doing well academically, as do most of his classmates. BIS is a lot like a regular (non-urban) American school. The curriculum is very similar to the schools I went to, and the staff is caring and nurturing. IT's OK to be enthusiastic about learning there, not a 'problem' like it is in the public schools.
In contrast, the local kids in the neighborhood hate going to the local school. His friends at (his) school are mostly his own age, but in the neighborhood, my son associates mainly with 12 and 15 year-olds. He just doesn't have much in common with the local kids his own age.
These are just my experiences, so I think you can understand why I have a bad taste in my mouth about the public education system here. I pay taxes for the public schools, yet, I still have to send my kid to an expensive private school because the standards (and attitudes) in the public schools are so far behind other systems in the world.
Most of the German parents in our neighborhood also agree. They'd also like to send their kids to a private school. But the expense is damned hard to swallow. It sure is for me..
Off soapbox now :-)
Not sure what you see, but these are my observations:
Bear in mind that we live in a 'fringe' area, a small community, but still within Kreis München... But here's what I see:
In our neighborhood, the 6-10 yr old kids here can barely read & write. My kid (9) has been (basic) reading and writing since he was 6. My son went to kindergarten in California where he learned the basic English R's. My wife is German, so my son is also fluent in German. We (my wife, actually) helped him with his German reading and writing.
He's a pretty normal kid. I really don't think he's exceptionally talented or anything. Lots of the kids we knew in California could also basically read and write at 6yrs.
Anyway, when we first moved here from CA (for my wife it was 'coming back'), we naturally first took him to the local public school.
Well, they evaluated him (for three days!), and afterwards (to my utter dismay), told us he is a problem child, and chastised us for his ability to read and write, and elementary math and science skills, citing that this is bad for young kids, because because he'll be bored and will be disruptive in class and that will affect his ability to learn. ... ... Huh?
They told us (in no uncertain terms) that he will have problems throughout his education because of this, and we should have never allowed that level of education so early.
They admitted that legally, they had to take him, but it would be preferable that he attend a different 'alternative' school of some sort. ... ... ... huh? Did I hear this right? If my wife wasn't German, I'd chalk all this up to a translation error. Nope, it's what they said.
My sense is that the problems would be theirs, not his (more work for them) and the preference for him to school elsewhere is also theirs, and not because it's in the best interests of the child. They only care about minimizing their workload. This is consistent with what I see in German culture - shoot for the least complicated solution - whatever is easiest (and even my German wife concurs with this view).
So, we took him to several (private) schools, and received warmer receptions at all of them. Then we took him to BIS. They evaluated him for ONE HOUR, and enthusiastically accepted him (at a time when there were no vacancies).
Today, my son loves going to school, is well-adjusted, doing well academically, as do most of his classmates. BIS is a lot like a regular (non-urban) American school. The curriculum is very similar to the schools I went to, and the staff is caring and nurturing. IT's OK to be enthusiastic about learning there, not a 'problem' like it is in the public schools.
In contrast, the local kids in the neighborhood hate going to the local school. His friends at (his) school are mostly his own age, but in the neighborhood, my son associates mainly with 12 and 15 year-olds. He just doesn't have much in common with the local kids his own age.
These are just my experiences, so I think you can understand why I have a bad taste in my mouth about the public education system here. I pay taxes for the public schools, yet, I still have to send my kid to an expensive private school because the standards (and attitudes) in the public schools are so far behind other systems in the world.
Most of the German parents in our neighborhood also agree. They'd also like to send their kids to a private school. But the expense is damned hard to swallow. It sure is for me..
Off soapbox now :-)
Jeffn,
your story on German elementary schools sounds weird. Never thought that sort of stuff could happen, what with Bavarian politicians harping all the time about making kids learn more faster...
I was puzzled by one of your earlier comments, though:
"I have one (rather wealthy) friend who has in his entire career paid several Million euros into the system. For that contribution, he's eligible for max €3000/mo at retirement."
This can't be - the German public pension scheme limits contributions to an annual gross income of roughly 50,000 Euro. I.e. you pay in a maximum of roughly 5,000 Euro per year, plus another 5,000 contributed by your employer. That's it. Even if you earn a million dollars, you still only contribute 5,000 + 5,000.
Of course, some of the income tax money also goes to subsidies the pension scheme, but that's another story.
your story on German elementary schools sounds weird. Never thought that sort of stuff could happen, what with Bavarian politicians harping all the time about making kids learn more faster...
I was puzzled by one of your earlier comments, though:
"I have one (rather wealthy) friend who has in his entire career paid several Million euros into the system. For that contribution, he's eligible for max €3000/mo at retirement."
This can't be - the German public pension scheme limits contributions to an annual gross income of roughly 50,000 Euro. I.e. you pay in a maximum of roughly 5,000 Euro per year, plus another 5,000 contributed by your employer. That's it. Even if you earn a million dollars, you still only contribute 5,000 + 5,000.
Of course, some of the income tax money also goes to subsidies the pension scheme, but that's another story.
Actually Jeffn's story about the school is not too hard to believe. Many pedagogue here seem to believe that children should not be taught anything before age 6. I don't understand this either, but it is the common school of thought here. They believe that starting the basic R's earlier will only put undue pressure on the kid at a tender age. They seem to totally ignore the fact that kids brains are little sponges at that age, that they are more than eager to learn and that teaching them can be done in playful, fun ways that do not pressure the kids.
The fact that my children were being raised bi-lingual was frowned upon by their (public-school) teachers and I was told on many occasions that this would cause problems for them. I would have put them in private school if I could have afforded it.
All in all though, the schools have been alright. There are no guns, drugs or violence. The kids love their school and have been very happy there. The curriculum is unimaginative, but adequate and most of all, the kids have always been safe there, unlike many US schools.
The fact that my children were being raised bi-lingual was frowned upon by their (public-school) teachers and I was told on many occasions that this would cause problems for them. I would have put them in private school if I could have afforded it.
I would have put them in private school if I could have afforded it. All in all though, the schools have been alright. There are no guns, drugs or violence. The kids love their school and have been very happy there. The curriculum is unimaginative, but adequate and most of all, the kids have always been safe there, unlike many US schools.
My kids are in the German system, were taught to read and write before they entered school (in the Kindergarten). So it's difficult to imagine that they would have encouraged that if the schools didn't want it.
The teacher had 25 kids, about half of them bilingual, two who didn't speak any German, and several who could read and write. So, yes, it was boring for those kids who knew a bit more than the others, so they had to learn patience. (Something that was difficult for my kid ).
I just took my kids to the states over Pfingston and was able to send the oldest to an American school for a day (in Virginia), as well as compare his "level" to other kids his age and older and speak to a guidance councilor at a different school (friend of the family).
I came back and thanked the teacher
If we were to move back to the states, he would be put AHEAD a grade. (Except for writing English, there he would need help, reading and understanding are no problems, he even reads english above the US second grade level) I chalk it up to the teacher and the school here.
The teacher had 25 kids, about half of them bilingual, two who didn't speak any German, and several who could read and write. So, yes, it was boring for those kids who knew a bit more than the others, so they had to learn patience. (Something that was difficult for my kid ).
).I just took my kids to the states over Pfingston and was able to send the oldest to an American school for a day (in Virginia), as well as compare his "level" to other kids his age and older and speak to a guidance councilor at a different school (friend of the family).
I came back and thanked the teacher
If we were to move back to the states, he would be put AHEAD a grade. (Except for writing English, there he would need help, reading and understanding are no problems, he even reads english above the US second grade level) I chalk it up to the teacher and the school here.
please explain why you pay for the health services 'at the door'
btw the system with taxes is called social democracy and has fringe benefits that you can't always measure empirically. Such as Munich being a Toytown and somewhat safer than your average US city (alledgedly based on other threads)
btw the system with taxes is called social democracy and has fringe benefits that you can't always measure empirically. Such as Munich being a Toytown and somewhat safer than your average US city (alledgedly based on other threads)
QUOTE (The Artful Dodger @ Jul 3 2005, 3:00 pm)
when you leave, you can apply to have your contributions refunded. You should not lose out.
Last I heard this only applied if you left Germany before the 5yr mark, and you have to be gone for 2yrs before they'll even think about giving you $$ back. If you have been registered in germany for over 5yrs then your screwed..
Also if you are an EU citizen, then you won't get it back either, but it might be
transfered to the same type setup in your home country.
This is covered in the "German handbook" published by one of the Amts in Berlin.
Do a search here and you'll find the links.
Can I just say, IT's ABOUT TO GET WORSE. They are currently now discussing rasing VAT in Germany upto about 18% although 20% has been mentioned.
Germany is a country in financial ruin, and needs to generate money from somewhere to invest, to try and get the job market etc kick started, so be prepared, things are going to get worse !
Germany is a country in financial ruin, and needs to generate money from somewhere to invest, to try and get the job market etc kick started, so be prepared, things are going to get worse !
QUOTE (Jeffn @ Jul 3 2005, 11:43 pm)
chastised us for his ability to read and write, and elementary math and science skills, citing that this is bad for young kids, because because he'll be bored and will be disruptive in class and that will affect his ability to learn. ... ... Huh?
They told us (in no uncertain terms) that he will have problems throughout his education because of this, and we should have never allowed that level of education so early.
I still have to send my kid to an expensive private school because the standards (and attitudes) in the public schools are so far behind other systems in the world.
Most of the German parents in our neighborhood also agree. They'd also like to send their kids to a private school. But the expense is damned hard to swallow. It sure is for me..
Off soapbox now :-)
They told us (in no uncertain terms) that he will have problems throughout his education because of this, and we should have never allowed that level of education so early.
I still have to send my kid to an expensive private school because the standards (and attitudes) in the public schools are so far behind other systems in the world.
Most of the German parents in our neighborhood also agree. They'd also like to send their kids to a private school. But the expense is damned hard to swallow. It sure is for me..
Off soapbox now :-)
Jeffn,
Well - this is a great 2nd thread on educating American kids in Germany - you are
certainly not "thread-bare" in terms of topics...
I think what you are experiencing is much like what would happen if a suburban kid
was put in an inner-city school - of course the kid would out-perform others, and
the kid would be better adjusted (presumably) because of a ton of parental involvement
in the kids scholastic abilities - an American father and German mother - the kid is
bound to be smarter than the same-nationality parents, unless both are highly
educated, etc, ---or--- the kid is put into the private school system. Also, inner-city
teachers don't have the resources of rich suburban school districts, etc...
I agree that the German system tends to create this "least common demoninator"
effect once the kid is put into the German "segment" - e.g., Gymnasium, etc. While
it is good if you're in the higher levels, if the kid is, well, not as strong, he or she
get put into a big box with the rest of the kids in that classification. In America,
there are "advanced placement" resources available, and I am the product of
such a system. It was difficult, but ion the long run, rewarding.
But in America, as you and your neighbors are noticing here, educational money talks.
Money doesn't talk it swears! Here
It is call solidarity.
If you like the life here, it is because of how the society works. enjoy!
If you like the life here, it is because of how the society works. enjoy!
QUOTE (Darkknight @ Jul 4 2005, 10:33 am)
If you have been registered in germany for over 5yrs then your screwed..
Eh? No, you have an entitlement to a pension based on your contributions like errrrrm everyone else!
Like that's going to be be worth anything !
German taxes are absolutely huge, that we all know. I used to growl on at tedious length about what I was paying, how I was not gonna stay here long term, and that I was paying for somebody else etc etc etc.
You never know though mate; tomorrow EVERYTHING may change: you'll decide to stay on longer, meet some bird/bloke/other or decide for whatever reason that you don't really want to leave - and although you'll still know that alot of the system here is screwed up and needs a serious overhaul, you'll also know that everyone else is in the same boat, they also hope that things will change, then you'll feel even more at home and pretty much just accept it, however grudgingly - after all, is the taxation not worth it ,albeit unrelated, just to live somewhere with such a prolific abundance of fantastic quality beer?
You stay for a bit, moan about whats wrong here, than pop home and realise its worse - then come back to Bayern.
Yep, Don Riina just wrote that shit man.
You never know though mate; tomorrow EVERYTHING may change: you'll decide to stay on longer, meet some bird/bloke/other or decide for whatever reason that you don't really want to leave - and although you'll still know that alot of the system here is screwed up and needs a serious overhaul, you'll also know that everyone else is in the same boat, they also hope that things will change, then you'll feel even more at home and pretty much just accept it, however grudgingly - after all, is the taxation not worth it ,albeit unrelated, just to live somewhere with such a prolific abundance of fantastic quality beer?
You stay for a bit, moan about whats wrong here, than pop home and realise its worse - then come back to Bayern.
Yep, Don Riina just wrote that shit man.
*phones optician for new glasses*
QUOTE (pepper @ Jul 4 2005, 12:14 pm)
IT's ABOUT TO GET WORSE.
you can say that again.. I was reading this weekly newspaper at work.. From July on another 0,5% from brutto will be cut off..
The picture speaks for itself..
Whether the German state pension is going to be worth anything is another matter entirely of course! That's a different thread!
Bit in principal, everyone pays in and everyone gets the pension. For countries that have reciprocal arrangements (UK and Ireland mostly here) you can have the credit transferred so it is paid out in your dotage at "home".
Was giving this some though before I saw the thread as it happens. Yes, income tax is currently high in Germany bt look at the spending power of what you have net and look at the fact that once you get your net, there are few other taxes.
Re: MwSt. ironic that is was the CDU/CSU who accused that the SPD were going to increase this tax and now they are planning to! And increases in MwSt hit who the hardest? Why the poorest of course!
Bit in principal, everyone pays in and everyone gets the pension. For countries that have reciprocal arrangements (UK and Ireland mostly here) you can have the credit transferred so it is paid out in your dotage at "home".
Was giving this some though before I saw the thread as it happens. Yes, income tax is currently high in Germany bt look at the spending power of what you have net and look at the fact that once you get your net, there are few other taxes.
Re: MwSt. ironic that is was the CDU/CSU who accused that the SPD were going to increase this tax and now they are planning to! And increases in MwSt hit who the hardest? Why the poorest of course!
Isn't German VAT one of the lowest in the EU?
If they raise it, it won't be, but I think you are right.
Although the taxes are quite high.
Although the taxes are quite high.
QUOTE (pepper @ Jul 4 2005, 3:16 pm)
If they raise it, it won't be.
even if it gets raised to 18% it will be relatively low or normal for western europe (Scandinavia has 25%, GB has 17.5)
VAT in Germany at 16% is one of the lowest, yes.
QUOTE (MonksTown @ Jul 4 2005, 1:12 pm)
Eh? No, you have an entitlement to a pension based on your contributions like errrrrm everyone else!
Yes this is true...BUT if you want to get it back when you leave you must leave BEFORE the 5yr mark... Search aand/or read the publications from the Govt.
QUOTE
I think what you are experiencing is much like what would happen if a suburban kid
was put in an inner-city school - of course the kid would out-perform others, and
the kid would be better adjusted (presumably) because of a ton of parental involvement
in the kids scholastic abilities - an American father and German mother - the kid is
bound to be smarter than the same-nationality parents, unless both are highly
educated, etc, ---or--- the kid is put into the private school system. Also, inner-city
teachers don't have the resources of rich suburban school districts, etc...
was put in an inner-city school - of course the kid would out-perform others, and
the kid would be better adjusted (presumably) because of a ton of parental involvement
in the kids scholastic abilities - an American father and German mother - the kid is
bound to be smarter than the same-nationality parents, unless both are highly
educated, etc, ---or--- the kid is put into the private school system. Also, inner-city
teachers don't have the resources of rich suburban school districts, etc...
Levon,
Astute observation, but still; I have a hard time buying into that because our prior experience (in the U.S.) was not in some affluent school district. It was San Jose, perhaps one of the worst in the neighborhood. Sure, lots of problems, but there was at least a genuine desire from the instructors to nurture kids' strengths. Whereas, here it seems they want the kids to be put in a 'box', and stifle any individuality.
Further (as I eluded to before), my sense is that this is not about an educational 'philosophy', rather, it's about minimizing the amount of time and energy an instructor has to put forth to be successful. It's not about the kids.. it's about making the job easier. If all the kids are 'contained' into the same level of skills, then minimal personal attention needs to be paid. Just teach the class and get it over with. Next...
OK here comes the philosophy...
Socialism:
I believe this attitude is a product of the socialist system, because socialism stifles incentive to do better. There is little merit in being a better teacher, or engineer, Waitress, or anything else. You won't be fired for mediocre performance, (even if you did, you won't lose your income - in fact, in some cases, you might be better off 'arbeitslos'!) and the best you can hope for is to walk away with your retirement. So, why do better? - it brings you little, if anything. I've had a few German people tell me it's silly to be 'into' my work so much.. People will just take advantage of me.. Hmmm.. May be right. In Germany, at least... Another off topic discussion...
Anyway, You can see this phenomenon all around us - Service in restaurants and banks and grocery stores and gas stations and post office and... Compared to what you get elsewhere, the services here are poor. And I'm not the only idiot who perceives this.
Another one... You aren't supposed to drive a nice car to work here. It's frowned upon. If you are successful, you are supposed to hide it. I know a (actually several) guy ho owns several very nice cars (he is very smart, successful, works very hard and deserves them) but he hides them in his garage and only drives them when he's going out of town.. He drives a Mini to work.
And socially, being entreprenaurial, enthusiastic and independent-thinking is generally frowned upon, or at least 'suspect' (unless of course, it makes you rich, and then they're just jealous, and presume you must have some sort of a drug or prostitution business on the side - must be how you make your money). Many people here just can't seem to grasp the concept of doing well because you... do well.
Class Division:
I'm not saying everyone here is this way - most certainly not, but the majority of those that ARE, generally have little association with those that aren't. I can only speak for myself, but I have friends (in the states) from all walks of life.. Affluent, Middle-income, and downright poor. All friends just the same... No judgements.
Doesn't work the same way here. My observation is that there is clearly more of a class 'division' than I saw in the states. ..and you don't even have to be very wealthy here to be put in the class of 'upper class'. If you are even mildly successful, the less fortunate don't want much to do with you and some will even attack your character without even knowing you. And if you are less fortunate, the successful don't want much to do with you either, presumably becasue they know you'll be jealous and don't want to deal with your jealousy.
Another observation is that most anyone living a normal 'middle class' life in the states would likely fall in the 'upper class' category here. I have a lot of stories about this.. One recent example: I had a German colleague fly with me to Washington DC on business. His first time to the U.S. Long story, but he was amazed (and frankly, quite intimidated) at how 'rich' most people are. Ranted and raved about how unfair it is that there are so many 'rich' people while there are people living in the streets...
OK, we spent little time in DC (where there is a lot of poverty) and most of our time with friends and colleagues out in Reston and so on.. but not with anybody affluent or 'rich'. Just normal, average, middle-class people with a suburban house, 2.5 kids and a dog..
Sure, there's more poverty in the states.. but the overwhelming majority of people fall into the 'middle class' category, and in general, live a higher standard of living than most Europeans. My sense is that there is a much smaller 'middle class' here - you are either generally 'struggling' (not a surprise, considering the high cost of living and outrageous taxation), or 'Rich', 'Upper Class'.. or perhaps better characterized as 'not struggling'. Not much in-between.
My 350 cents on Taxes and Socialism...
Yes, Bob, out of topic, again...
J
Another one... You aren't supposed to drive a nice car to work here. It's frowned upon. If you are successful, you are supposed to hide it. I know a (actually several) guy ho owns several very nice cars (he is very smart, successful, works very hard and deserves them) but he hides them in his garage and only drives them when he's going out of town.. He drives a Mini to work.
And socially, being entreprenaurial, enthusiastic and independent-thinking is generally frowned upon, or at least 'suspect' (unless of course, it makes you rich, and then they're just jealous, and presume you must have some sort of a drug or prostitution business on the side - must be how you make your money). Many people here just can't seem to grasp the concept of doing well because you... do well.
Class Division:
I'm not saying everyone here is this way - most certainly not, but the majority of those that ARE, generally have little association with those that aren't. I can only speak for myself, but I have friends (in the states) from all walks of life.. Affluent, Middle-income, and downright poor. All friends just the same... No judgements.
Doesn't work the same way here. My observation is that there is clearly more of a class 'division' than I saw in the states. ..and you don't even have to be very wealthy here to be put in the class of 'upper class'. If you are even mildly successful, the less fortunate don't want much to do with you and some will even attack your character without even knowing you. And if you are less fortunate, the successful don't want much to do with you either, presumably becasue they know you'll be jealous and don't want to deal with your jealousy.
SO VERY VERY TRUE.
And socially, being entreprenaurial, enthusiastic and independent-thinking is generally frowned upon, or at least 'suspect' (unless of course, it makes you rich, and then they're just jealous, and presume you must have some sort of a drug or prostitution business on the side - must be how you make your money). Many people here just can't seem to grasp the concept of doing well because you... do well.
Class Division:
I'm not saying everyone here is this way - most certainly not, but the majority of those that ARE, generally have little association with those that aren't. I can only speak for myself, but I have friends (in the states) from all walks of life.. Affluent, Middle-income, and downright poor. All friends just the same... No judgements.
Doesn't work the same way here. My observation is that there is clearly more of a class 'division' than I saw in the states. ..and you don't even have to be very wealthy here to be put in the class of 'upper class'. If you are even mildly successful, the less fortunate don't want much to do with you and some will even attack your character without even knowing you. And if you are less fortunate, the successful don't want much to do with you either, presumably becasue they know you'll be jealous and don't want to deal with your jealousy.
SO VERY VERY TRUE.
I'd have to disagree about the car thing. If you have a really nice, really fast, big, comfortable car, what's the point of driving it to work? Take the Mini which is easier to park in the city and probably gets better mileage. That's common sense, not hiding anything.
QUOTE
guy ho owns several very nice cars
But can he live with himself ?
A friend, who owns his own company and sells to small and midsize manufacturing companies, maintains that if he turns up in a car of higher class than his usual Audi A4 estate he might not get a sale. Company owners, especially selfmade ones, seem to be suspicious of too obviously flashy cars.
My old boss told me it was important to drive a car that matched your job or level of success or status or whatever. The boss had to have the best car, but it couldnt be too flash, and mine had to be worse than his but better than the cleaning ladies.
Anyone know how the different jobs etc are actually ranked according to german culture? Or why?
But to stay on topic, guess I will have to do all my shopping in Kufstein instead of just buying my gas there.
Anyone know how the different jobs etc are actually ranked according to german culture? Or why?
But to stay on topic, guess I will have to do all my shopping in Kufstein instead of just buying my gas there.
QUOTE (Darkknight @ Jul 4 2005, 3:14 pm)
Yes this is true...BUT if you want to get it back when you leave you must leave BEFORE the 5yr mark...
If you are a not from the EU and want your contribution paid out again then yes, you have to leave before 5 years or it will get paid out as a pension at retirement age.
But you don't "lose" it if you stay longer than 5 years, it just gets paid out as a pension later.
Are you suggesting that it's not OK to have nice cars?
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