Getting a baby baptized in Munich

Hello,

just wondering if anyone has experience with this one...
At one stage or another I stopped paying my church taxes here,
so I guess I'm pretty much in the dog house..but does this mean that
our to-be-born if also closed off completely from the church here?
Would be grateful for any info on this...

cait



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Depends on whether the father pays church taxes as far as I know. A baby can only be baptised if one of its parents pay church taxes... which is one of the problems with the whole system because there are so many church funded Kindergartens etc that the kids only get into if they're baptised. I could go on about this for ages...

I depends on what religion you were registered as. There seems to be some sort of agreement with the Missouri Synod lutheran church.

And if the god-parents are in the church, then it might be easier.

Funnily enough, the catholics seem to be a bit more relaxed about these things than the protestants. Go figure.

There is also the option of going to a church that doesn't collect church taxes. A friend of mine got married in a greek orthodox church for that very reason (no, she was neither greek nor orthodox).

Or get it done outside of Germany...

Not true, my Daughter went to a church Kindergarten and nshe is not baptised, nor did we pay church tax.

/me delurks for a moment.

It also depends on if the church in question is one which benfits from church tax. I attend a Methodist church here and they don't get any money from church tax so I would assume that you not paying it wouldn't be a problem for them. I expect that the same might be true of the Anglican congregation here.

If you want more infomation try emailing pastor@peacechurch.de. Peace Church is the English language Methodist congregation here in Munich.

Roz.

My wife's sister wanted to get her baby baptized as a catholic here. She had long ago "stepped out" of the church tax system, but also had the problem that the kid's father refused to give his permission. The two were never married and split soon after the kid arrived, but he is registered as the father and thus has veto (which is fair enough).

She just went down to Northern Italy (where they speak German) and got it done there. No questions asked.

Personally it is not my cup of tea, but there you go.

For Catholics, contact Fr. Bill Buckley at the English speaking Catholic mission.

Tlf: 089-5003580

Isn't it a bit hypocritical to not pay church tax, yet want your child baptized?

ouch! thats a can of worms. same could be said for marrying in a church. very personal the Hatch -Match-Dispatch descisions.

Interestingly if your relgion is Anglican or Methodist Christianity you are liable for Church Tax because you are in that sense "Evangelisch" even if your church does not benefit from the money.

It might seem hypocritical a bit Showem but some of the more"happy-clappy" churches in protestantism reject the state involvement anyway so would no problem squaring that circle.

Don't care if it's a can of worms. If you want the "benefits", you should pay up in my opinion.

True! If you wanna use the facilities of the country-club, they normally expect you to be a member! But to get it done, I often heard the story, that most churches won't bother if you make a adequate contribution...

You should only be baptised as an adult anyway. But I really dont see the issue, you can do it yourself anyway, the person who performs it or the place its performed in are the least important parts of the sacrament of baptism. In fact if you did want to devote a child to the lord who better to do it than the parents themselves rather than some robe wearing clown who doesnt even know the child (and would probably try and stick his finger up their bum anyway, in the catholic case).

You're a sick fucker Kza.

And regardless of the level of your belief, there is a lot to be said for the baptismal ceremony itself. When I became godfather to my niece it meant a lot to stand there with my sister & her husband, the atmosphere of the church, the rituals, the priest doing his thing, all very moving and memorable. Same would not have been the case had it just been done in someones living room.

With the church having so much influence over Kindergartens, schools, meals on wheels, pflegehilfe, old folks homes... you wonder if they use their position to "force" people into paying church tax so they can access those services...?

I would say no. In the catholic faith and I assume many protestant faiths as well, the tithe is not mandatory. This has nothing to do with your faith or beliefs if you do not pay the tax. It is only saying that you do not believe it is in the church's or government's interest to automatically deduct your tithe from your paycheck. Two very spearate issues.

Depends what kind of ceremony you want. Most churches are going to frown upon you bringing a goat and an altar of fire into the building. But in your own front room you can do whatever you like.

Brokenm, if you live in the country, you should play by the rules.

Having had to sit through 2 baptisms on easter sunday at 5:00 in the morning (yes 5:00 in the morning) I'd have to disagree. 2.5 hours of pure toture. I just wonder what kind of people have the audacity to hold their childrens baptisms at 5:00 a.m. during easter sunday mass? Catholics

I disagree. I assume that rules are an evolving structure. One that should represent progress and a reflection of the community that it represents, with protection for all views. Social discontent is needed to drive this change. If I don't agree with something I will be vocal about changing this.

And once again, Baptism is a religious and not a state defined sacrament or marinade. Neither is the requirement to pay tithes. If the Church wants to register the child as a part of that denomination then they should. And when the child has to decide whether or not to pay taxes, the decision should be made then.

Fine, go and be vocal about changing the rules. In the meantime, trying to find a loophole to get your child baptized but being too stingy to pay your church tax strikes me as incredibly hypocritical. (Cait, this isn't meant to be a personal reflection on you, it's a general point of view.)

You say if the Church (your capital C) wants to register the child, they should. What if they don't want to? I certainly wouldn't blame them.

"... you wonder if they use their position to "force" people into paying church tax so they can access those services...?..."
i pay church tax and knowing that my money supports kindergardens, home services for sick and old people is one of the reasons why i don't mind. my church tax goes to my parish and is used for my area.
these church services offer a lot of help and support to people that our state cannot pay for.

I have known people who would not be entitled to their grandparents trust fund if they were not baptized. The grandparents of the child held strong convictions about the church. The parents did not care less. But they wanted the child baptized so that the child could make the decision later in life whether they wanted to be a part of the church or not. Why does it matter what religion the parents believe in to do something for the child. I understand your point a tiny bit more if we were talking about being married in a church here in Germany, while this is the complete choice of fiath of the people involved. But the government should not take money for the Church.

I know a lot of folk who go to church yet don't pay church tax they rather make donations themselves when they go. I'm the same. I am a RC when I go to church here I make my donations. It's how I grew up and I'll do that here even though the locals do it different. I hardly think the Big Man in the sky judges me for that. If I'm still living here when the time comes for my kids to be baptised I'd want it done here.

But when the state collects, it is a state tax. I am not against giving money to the church if you believe in the faith and want to contribute or if the church itself requires you to give money in order to call yourself a member of that denomination. What I am against is that a tertiary party to this (the state) forces you to pay a set tax rate that is invariable which has nothing to do with you being a member of the church.

Totally agree with you. My parents never baptized me or my brother (much to the chagrin of my very Lutheran grandparents), as they felt it was very hypocritical to go thru this lavish ceremony if we were not going to be brought up that way.
It has also given me free reign on my religious outlook.

How does a bit of oil or water on your head when you won't even remember it, impinge on your free reign?

That's another can of worms.

The water is symbolic and dependant on the individual can mean a lot more than just a little splash.

I'm baptised, it didn't traumatise me but I'd prefer I wasn't.

If you are concerned about the meaning of it ER, doesn't that imply you believe. If you don't believe, then it means nothing, unless you believe but want to go to the dark side...

In my case it implies that I'm not sure what place or meaning it has in my life. What bothers me is that it should be up to me and only me to decide that.

Sometimes that is a problem about not be consulted by your parents about so many different things. When you were born, whether you were a boy or girl, forced to eat beef or pork when you wanted to be a vegetarian, where you are forced to live, how your hair was cut, which morals your parents tried to force down upon you, whether you had dogs or cats growing up...hmmm...growing up...it is almost like life allows you to have parents to make decisions for you when you can not make them on your own, and then as you develop in both body and mind you are able to make more and more decisions for yourself. I don't know all Christians faiths' rites of passage. But usually the Catholic faith has a baptism of a child where the parents and godparents take on the role as a steward of the faith of the child to raise the child in the faith of their parents choosing. Once the child can make a decision for themselves they then can elect (free will) to be confirmed in the faith and take it upon their own whether they want to be a part of the church or not. In Baptist faiths, it is the adults who are baptised once they realise they are the "chosen" and that they are saved. They then ask to be baptised. Even then they usually are pre-teens or young teenagers who have lived in the home and the parents have indoctrinated them long enough into their "self-chosen" faith. The meaning is only as important as you place on it.

The state cannot pay for? Don't make me laugh, its the the state WON'T pay for even though they are getting 50% of my pay cheque.

A woman I know used to be a heroin addict and was turning tricks down the Hauptbahnhof for money.
I don't know if she got HIV from sharing needles or making more money by selling sex without condoms.

She managed to get her life together, off the shit and was actually doing a job that was valuble to the community.

But her whole world fell apart again when the social wohnung she was living in was privatised and she ws thrown out. So now she's...? Yeah, back down the Hbf selling her body for smack.

And the caring sharing social landlord that pushed her backinto this... the Catholic Church's Caritas.

I reckon having the church provide so many services is a means of social control that we can see on this thread is fraying around the edges.

Brokenm, you've blown my statement completely out of proportion. Of course you can't choose when you are born or what gender you are. That is a ridiculous statement and in no way relevant.

Religion is something else, once you are baptised you can't unbaptise yourself whether it means something to you or not is completely beside the point. It is a parents job to raise and educate but they can not force the path that child takes for them. Which in essence is happening at the baptism. The sacraments of Catholicism (Baptism, Confirmation and Confession) all take place while the child is too young (according to the law) to make decisions for itself.

I disagree. Not that many people change the religion from what their parents were believers. This is because this "beliefs" of their parents were at the center of their moral upbringing. Parents force their kids into a wide set of situations. I had to learn the saxophone for almost ten years. Did I enjoy it? No, I hated it. But it was the pat hthat my parents pushed me down. Sometimes parents get it right, and sometimes they do not. But whether you want to agree or not, most children are taken down the path of religion designated by their parents. You are one of a fortunate few that have also had the opportunity (probably also due to choices your parents made) to be educated into a wider acceptence and understanding of world religions. Now you have a choice, agree with the faith that your parents forced you into, or not. As I said, if you don't believe in it, then it should not have any meaning or significance. If you do believe in it, your parents chose rightly. On a side note, in the catholic faith, confirmation is the adult acceptance into the faith and not one made by children (if you also assume that the definition of children and adult have not somewhat changed in the last couple of centuries).

and one last point, it is completely appropriate to use the example of where you were born as a similar condition. As I wrote above, a lot of this has to do with your religion. Culture and religion are intertwined. Which one defined the other is a indistinguishable. These differences have a lot to do with our political borders which are also highly based on religion.

Im sure it must be possible somehow, and if not, I am sure someone, somewhere can offer such a service.

Probably in Las Vegas by Elvis or something.

I still don't understand the reason you would want to unbaptize yourself? Every Christian faith considers a baptism by any other Christian faith as vaild. So if you change from one to the next Christians faiths, then you believe in the Power of Christ and the renouncing of Satan. If you change to a religion or no religion, than the act no longer has a spiritual meaning and should mean nothing.

It seems possible right here in Europe the thread also mentions ex-communication as a possible alternative for catholics, but it could be quite involved to convince a priest (although I thought only bishops and above could do it) to do it for you.

I don't think this is true. When we moved to Munich my b/f registered as Anglican at the KVR and he paid nowt.

The registration offers 4 alternatives

Catholic
Protestant
Jewish
None

Anglicans "should" be putting Protstant and paying the tax.
You can't register as "Anglican".

You might be right and I don't want to argue, but they asked him at the KVR and filled in the box on the form for him. He still didn't have church tax as a deduction on his payslip.

If you want to go to Church here then nobody will ask if you pay your tax or not. If you want to avail of their services (Baptism, kindergardens,etc.) then most, but not all (see my earlier post), German churches will insist on it.

If you want to use the S-Bahn you're supposed to pay as well. Most Germans do...

There is a "private" Lutheran church in Germany called SELK. It's not connected to the Ev-lutherische Kirche in Germany and you therefore do not need to officially pay tax on it. From their website: "The SELK is an independent church body. It does not recieve subsidies from the state but rather it finances itself by the offerings of its members." They do have some kind of connection to the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church in the States.

Anyway, there is a SELK church in Obermenzing close to the Nymphenburg castle. Here's their homepage. They're really nice and might be able to help you out.

Here is where one of my children was baptized by the Good father Tom Pelleton (American). Great man with an open heart.