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Ideal "Non-German" Bar in Munich
What's your idea of the perfect bar?
@malcolm Spudbury. yeah its to do with the control the brewery, Scottish and Newcastle have over bondi.
As far as I know, Leon's use Scottish & Newcastle and he's got Augustiner on draught.
easily solved. just ply the scott&newcy rep with a bung.
everyone luvs a bung.
everyone luvs a bung.
@flogger well i'm sure your No 1. popstar MJ does!
leave mick jagger out of it. stay on topic big c you'll have the pc police ontya..
Just to weigh in with my 0.02...
On the menu front, having worked on a couple of biz plans for this type of thing, you need to make a fundamental decision - are you making a pub, or a bar?
If you are looking for a pub, then you can survive with a simplified kitchen - a single grill for making burgers/steaks, a fry-o-lator for chips/fries, and a couple of industrial strength crock-pots for soups - plus work space, fridges (combine it with the beer cooler in a separate room instead of the under-bar coolers for the kegs. The trick to opening a small but successful pub is, as Don said, simple but good food, with an equal balance on food and drink. The potential issues with the pub concept are as follows:
- If food will be a focus, and you want a varied menu, then you need to have a larger stock of food, which is perishable. Getting the stuff for 100 burgers doesn't do much good if you sell 20 and have to dispose of the rest. Most pubs close not because they are not busy, but because their waste/consumption ratio is out of balance.
- Because of the food stores, you will need a larger space (breakeven in the states was close to 50 seats) because you need to purchase more in bulk in order to get a better price, but if you want good quality food, you will need to move it out quickly. Larger space = larger cost.
- Staffing is much higher for this concept. Expect at least two full-on cooks for a successful pub concept. Plus, more bar staff in order to make this work.
This isn't to say that once you get the kinks out, you can't have a very succesful pub... but you need someone who is really experienced in the concept design before moving into it, in my most humble opinion.
On the bar side, things change. The focus is the drink, and the food is there to keep people drinking. That means good food, served simply - and repetition is more acceptable than in a pub. For example - stick to the basics: soups and sandwiches and ready-to-eat items like bags of chips/crisps.
Why soup and sandwiches? It's simple. For a small bar, someone can prep the soup in the morning and assemble the sandwich ingredients. Then, for lunch, have two soup options and 4 sandwiches. Nobody is cooking per se. People start to come in knowing that Monday is chili day, tuesday is split pea soup day, wednesday is cockaleekie soup etc... After lunch, put in a roast or two, and then in the afternoon offer hot sandwiches. The trick is simple assembly - no grilling to order, no panini presses, nothing that takes longer than cutting a slab of meat on bread or putting a ladle full of soup in a bowl. This way, the person running the bar can also deal with the food service.
This becomes really key - one or two people can operate a small bar for 20 people and maintain good profitability. In the summer, get a big grill, put it outside and have someone dedicated to grilling sausages and burgers (the smell of cooking meat over charcoal is a good way to attract business).
As soon as you start actually having to "cook" in real time aside from "serve", you need to think of this like you are running a restaurant, which in any market these days is risky.
Anyway, those are my 0.02. Hopefully we can see a good neighborhood bar come out of these discussions. I vote for western Schwabing - less competition and better rates than Leopoldstr or Zentrum, but still close enough to the U2 to get a good run of people dropping in. (there is a vacant spot on Schellingstrabe near Schleißheimer - hint, hint)
On the menu front, having worked on a couple of biz plans for this type of thing, you need to make a fundamental decision - are you making a pub, or a bar?
If you are looking for a pub, then you can survive with a simplified kitchen - a single grill for making burgers/steaks, a fry-o-lator for chips/fries, and a couple of industrial strength crock-pots for soups - plus work space, fridges (combine it with the beer cooler in a separate room instead of the under-bar coolers for the kegs. The trick to opening a small but successful pub is, as Don said, simple but good food, with an equal balance on food and drink. The potential issues with the pub concept are as follows:
- If food will be a focus, and you want a varied menu, then you need to have a larger stock of food, which is perishable. Getting the stuff for 100 burgers doesn't do much good if you sell 20 and have to dispose of the rest. Most pubs close not because they are not busy, but because their waste/consumption ratio is out of balance.
- Because of the food stores, you will need a larger space (breakeven in the states was close to 50 seats) because you need to purchase more in bulk in order to get a better price, but if you want good quality food, you will need to move it out quickly. Larger space = larger cost.
- Staffing is much higher for this concept. Expect at least two full-on cooks for a successful pub concept. Plus, more bar staff in order to make this work.
This isn't to say that once you get the kinks out, you can't have a very succesful pub... but you need someone who is really experienced in the concept design before moving into it, in my most humble opinion.
On the bar side, things change. The focus is the drink, and the food is there to keep people drinking. That means good food, served simply - and repetition is more acceptable than in a pub. For example - stick to the basics: soups and sandwiches and ready-to-eat items like bags of chips/crisps.
Why soup and sandwiches? It's simple. For a small bar, someone can prep the soup in the morning and assemble the sandwich ingredients. Then, for lunch, have two soup options and 4 sandwiches. Nobody is cooking per se. People start to come in knowing that Monday is chili day, tuesday is split pea soup day, wednesday is cockaleekie soup etc... After lunch, put in a roast or two, and then in the afternoon offer hot sandwiches. The trick is simple assembly - no grilling to order, no panini presses, nothing that takes longer than cutting a slab of meat on bread or putting a ladle full of soup in a bowl. This way, the person running the bar can also deal with the food service.
This becomes really key - one or two people can operate a small bar for 20 people and maintain good profitability. In the summer, get a big grill, put it outside and have someone dedicated to grilling sausages and burgers (the smell of cooking meat over charcoal is a good way to attract business).
As soon as you start actually having to "cook" in real time aside from "serve", you need to think of this like you are running a restaurant, which in any market these days is risky.
Anyway, those are my 0.02. Hopefully we can see a good neighborhood bar come out of these discussions. I vote for western Schwabing - less competition and better rates than Leopoldstr or Zentrum, but still close enough to the U2 to get a good run of people dropping in. (there is a vacant spot on Schellingstrabe near Schleißheimer - hint, hint)
My little bit of advice from when I was reading up on starting my own business. Common sense really and you might already have thought of it.
Go to another German city and talk to the owner/managers there about how they got set up and what their tips for you are. Someone running an Irish/English pub in Berlin isn't going to be worried about competition from someone starting something up in Munich, whereas the Munich ones may be.
Anyways, is this a pipe dream or are there people willing to lay down cash and give up their jobs to actually do this?
Go to another German city and talk to the owner/managers there about how they got set up and what their tips for you are. Someone running an Irish/English pub in Berlin isn't going to be worried about competition from someone starting something up in Munich, whereas the Munich ones may be.
Anyways, is this a pipe dream or are there people willing to lay down cash and give up their jobs to actually do this?
Therein is the problem - giving up my job. I would have to be pretty sure about all of this before I went ahead and gave it a whirl.
Theoretically though, yeah, I might just be interested.
Theoretically though, yeah, I might just be interested.
fortune favours the brave.
he who dares wins.
this time next year rodney we'll be millionaires etc...
he who dares wins.
this time next year rodney we'll be millionaires etc...
That's the thing though mate - when I go back to London the money there should be alright - I would love to know how much a boozer like Günther's makes its owner.
I would seriously be interested.
Would probably not throw the job away just yet, but if there were enough people involved, then nobody would have to. It would become a bit of a side project. The only problem with that is we would all need to have a very similar vision, or there'll be squabbles and fights and it will fall on it's arse.
Would probably not throw the job away just yet, but if there were enough people involved, then nobody would have to. It would become a bit of a side project. The only problem with that is we would all need to have a very similar vision, or there'll be squabbles and fights and it will fall on it's arse.
Somebody would be needed full time - meetings with breweries, builders, architects, lawyers, accountants takes time...so would anybody out there seriously trust just one other person they don't know to invest their money for them in a project like this...not sure I would.
I think this is a great idea! On the beer front Interbrew have just bought Spaten and (?) Löwenbräu, so if you went with Spaten maybe you could get some of the 'typical british' interbrew brands like Tennents, Bass, Boddingtons, Murphy's or Castlemaine xxxx (!) as well? not to drink mind, just to look at. pork scratchings are needed too, although might have to be smuggled into the country. and freshly microwaved pukka pies of course.
I would be very up for the food side of a pub, have capital, and would leave the bullshit corporate world at the drop of a hat.
I would never do it here though. I dislike Germans more by the day, sometimes by the hour, and so could never get involved in a business here. I'd be nicked for poisoning the locals without a doubt. Well, I suppose I might not get caught, but even so, several dead German customers would not do the food reputation any good.
I would never do it here though. I dislike Germans more by the day, sometimes by the hour, and so could never get involved in a business here. I'd be nicked for poisoning the locals without a doubt. Well, I suppose I might not get caught, but even so, several dead German customers would not do the food reputation any good.
@jimbo
First ideas are thrown around, as well as investment figures, etc. This can be done on weekends, or evenings, for as long as it takes. If and when a place is available for rent, we can have a look at it - take half a day of work, whatever.
Then, when the real work starts, everyone takes a couple of weeks of leave to meet with breweries, banks, lawyers, etc to sort stuff out. I can't see that that would necessitate anyone quitting their job completely, but a lot of weekends and evenings would have to be dedicated to the project at the beginning. Once the thing's up and running, the people with a financial interest don't have to be there all the time.
Biggest problem. Difference of ideas. Still that could get sorted in the first round, before anyone lays down any money or quits their job.
First ideas are thrown around, as well as investment figures, etc. This can be done on weekends, or evenings, for as long as it takes. If and when a place is available for rent, we can have a look at it - take half a day of work, whatever.
Then, when the real work starts, everyone takes a couple of weeks of leave to meet with breweries, banks, lawyers, etc to sort stuff out. I can't see that that would necessitate anyone quitting their job completely, but a lot of weekends and evenings would have to be dedicated to the project at the beginning. Once the thing's up and running, the people with a financial interest don't have to be there all the time.
Biggest problem. Difference of ideas. Still that could get sorted in the first round, before anyone lays down any money or quits their job.
There is a very good ex-pat (for want of a better name) bar in Erlangen called The Fat Lady run by an Irish bloke called Swan, he'd probably be able to give you some ideas (his Hula Hula Toasties are also fantastic).
Katrina
PS Brummie, it would have to be Löwenbräu then because Spaten is the worst Munich beer by miles. Any you can get Danish Pork Scratchings in Kaufhof.
Katrina
PS Brummie, it would have to be Löwenbräu then because Spaten is the worst Munich beer by miles. Any you can get Danish Pork Scratchings in Kaufhof.
@katrina - Surely Augustiner is the confirmed best in Munich?
re interbrew, they have stella too..if you went down this road.
so you'd have to employ plenty of bouncers for the wild melees inside..and toe2toes outside in the car-park.
still a fine idea. anyway another thing to consider is the world cup 2006 coming up..so you could def use that to your adv...BIG BUCKS to be made out of that. large wads.
so you'd have to employ plenty of bouncers for the wild melees inside..and toe2toes outside in the car-park.
still a fine idea. anyway another thing to consider is the world cup 2006 coming up..so you could def use that to your adv...BIG BUCKS to be made out of that. large wads.
QUOTE
confusing when people pay, and then don't pay for all they had, or someone just gets caned and pissed off and walks out without paying (which happened last night)...end result is the last one to leave picks up the tab for sundries. Probably spent 30€ over the odds last night.
just make people leave a card (ec or credit) behind the bar and serve drinks only when charged to a particular tab. works rather well over here...
There's not a snowball's chance I would leave my credit card with anyone in a bar for an evening's drinking. Pay as you go is the answer.
how very german...
anyway the way it is done when done sensibly is you give your card and you get a tab number on a little laminated card. you then charge your drinks to that tab. pay at the end of the evening. safer than just randomly running a tab for the evening: you are in full control, and you still have to sign for it at the end (so if someone charges 3 bottles of bubbly to your bill you can still challenge the bar staff...)
anyway the way it is done when done sensibly is you give your card and you get a tab number on a little laminated card. you then charge your drinks to that tab. pay at the end of the evening. safer than just randomly running a tab for the evening: you are in full control, and you still have to sign for it at the end (so if someone charges 3 bottles of bubbly to your bill you can still challenge the bar staff...)
No, I'm not worried about something extra getting charged to my card. I would be worried about the card simply disappearing. I have my doubts that it's kept locked up in a combination safe during the evening.
...if i'm in a bar long enough to merit running a tab, chances are i'll be too pissed to do the mental arithmetic when i leave, so i'm billy buggered on both options there...
i generally only end up drinking with people i know and trust anyway, so it hasn't been a problem yet... and, here in Toytown, i've only ever been under charged on a tab
i generally only end up drinking with people i know and trust anyway, so it hasn't been a problem yet... and, here in Toytown, i've only ever been under charged on a tab
The same problems everywhere
The old viking way is to tie everyones feet together and loosen only when the bill is paid small problem if you have to got o the loo...
The old viking way is to tie everyones feet together and loosen only when the bill is paid small problem if you have to got o the loo...
oh i dont know..some are into those fetishes...champagne and kaviar for example..
not my bag.
not my bag.
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