Ideal "Non-German" Bar in Munich

As some of you may have noticed I quite like my expat bars - I spend a lot of time in Günthers (9 days so far on the trot, and an expenditure in there bigger than the GDP of Liberia), I visit Bondi, grab lunch in Kilians or Neds from time to time - I've even been to Leons, the expat bar nobody has ever been to.

All of this has got me wondering - the ideal expat bar, were I to get involved in a project to own one - what bits from each of the bars would I want to take and put in my own place? And what would everybody else want?

So far I've decided I want a Leopoldstrasse or city centre location, with a beer garden bit, loosley based around an English pub, with these special features:

Pool table, dart board, SKY TV + Premiere, Don Riina in the kitchen and scoring the darts, Bex as manageress, one English lager, one proper bitter, Augustiner Helles, some form of Weißbier...errr...yeah, that's it - oh, and a name?

I wanna open a pub and play decent music...and I intend to call the place "Rockbar".

Actually, a couple of months back I spoke to some people involved in the trade about getting a place up and running. It's actually a lot easier than I would have imagined.

Really? The big question is money. How much do you need? Bex explained that you can get a brewery involved, but then you're stuck with their beer... Would love to do it though, and may just investigate a little more seriously myself.

You don't need too much of the initial money yourself. For example, you can get pots of investment from Guinness (or more accurately Diageo) for the Irish pub concept. Basically you'd raise about 10-15% of what is required and they chuck in the rest. Or, as you mentioned, you kick in with one of the breweries and they will also front much of the required readies.

Ideally it would have zero ex-pats in it...

Hmmm, I'm all on for having people from loads of different countries, living here in Munich and coming to the bar. But I'd agree with Randy, no expats. I hate the term and the type of person that it brings to mind.

proper snugs and big oxblood leather couchs

Agreed. "That Word" should be banned on this forum! Can't somebody set it up as a profanity so that it gets filtered? I, for one, refuse to use it.

As for the ideal bar, you gotta have lots of standing room. Prefereably with plenty of high stools and a few high tables. Like in the front section of Kilians. Then in addition you need a seating area with comfortable couches, as mentioned.

Definately no tables, like in the main part of Murphy's or the rear section of Kilians. Tables like that just work to segregate people and prevent interaction & flirting, etc.

A really cool thing would be to have two levels. So you can sit/stand in one level and people watch up, or down, into the other level. Know what I mean?

Lottie, that sounds kinda like Leons.

a jukebox!

and reasonably priced soft drinks (relative to alcohol)... something in me gets a bit irked when a coke costs more than a beer... admittedly that may be more of a problem 'on the islands' than it is here, but i just thought i'd throw it in there

Why have any english beers at all? German beers are much better.


I think there's a german law about this...

You might be interested in an article in this month's Capital about founding a Ltd company under UK law in Germany - saves a lot of the start-up costs but has some other risks. When you found a GmbH you need 25K € in start-up capital regardless so if you are serious this article could help. I think we've chucked our copy out though but you might find it online.
I'd like nice varied food, friendly staff, a welcoming attitude to all (including Germans), being able to buy table kegs (something I liked in Frankfurt), nice crisps (yes I know that crisps have carbs in), good ventilation and lighting, clean toilets, well-lit steps (actually no steps would be even better) and good transport access.
Katrina

I think that a massive jar of pickled eggs behind the bar is a must, as is selling jars of pickled cockles. I know nobody eats the eggs, but they gotta be there.

Whats the scvore with fruit machines over here? The German machines where you put some coins in, then walk off to the bar and let it play on its own do not count. Are proper fruit machines illegal here or something?

If I owned a pub here, I would certainly change the way people pay. I HATE it when you run a tab with people, then they sit and quibble about who drank what. Very German. Very annoying.

You're right keydeck. I was in Leons for Paddy's day last year. Haven't been back since, but from what I remember they have tables in the large "upper" area. I'd say burn the tables and put in more couches and coffee tables.

And when I said two levels, I don't mean with slight height differences of a coupla feet, I meant like two storeys. So that you can throw your beer over the balcony like Begbie in trainspotting. Ok, maybe not like that, but that pub in Glasgow is the architecture I'm refering to. Maybe I'm just too fond of my balconys.

Good that I'll be in the kitchen then and not behind the bar.

[img]http://www.philipjohnston.com/bham/gfx/mregg.jpg[/img]Oh can I change my wants list?
What I actually want is Brum's Mr Egg but in Munich and serving beer.
Good simple food, mad music, friendly staff and pickled eggs.
And wally guerkins.
Katrina
PS Don, my German is lovely and it is impossible not to be lovely back (which is good because I am obviously horrible).

I'm no fan of a tab either Don - got totally shafted last night, though I don't know for sure what happened - it gets bloody confusing when people pay, and then don't pay for all they had, or someone just gets caned and pissed off and walks out without paying (which happened last night)...end result is the last one to leave picks up the tab for sundries. Probably spent 30€ over the odds last night.

OK - two levels, I very much like that idea. Clean bogs. A must. Sofas, yes I like one or two of those, though you can't talk to the people opposite so easily. A jukebox in the week would be good, and yeah, one or two fruities about would be OK if they're allowed...

@Katrina - you technically need 25k, but in reality you only have to stump up 12.5 big ones. I could explain here, but it's boring so I won't - PM me if u want an explanation! There are other options than being a GmbH as well...

EDIT: @Malc - agreed, but an English beer or two might persuade the less intelligent tourists to drop in...

An ideal expat bar would have a separate room to be opened on big nights for dancing. I'm pretty tired of hearing the same exact music at all the German disco's. Maybe a bar that turns into a small dance club on a saturday night.

as regards location, central is good but i'm willing to walk a few yards from the U-Bahn to get to a bar if it is good enough...

and i know it is a cost of real estate issue, but there is some negative psychological thing about having a bar below ground, as with most of the 'oirish' bars here...

i quite like the fact that bondi isn't subterrainian and that there is an occasional shaft of natural light in there...

one thing that i don't like is fruit machines and quiz machines... they really annoyed me when i lived in the uk (we don't have them in ireland either)... one minute you are sitting a table having a pint and a chat and the next, half of the table is crowded around some machine... very antisocial in my opinion...

Good point about the fruities or the quiz machines - I hate playing those en masse. Mind you, have you ever tried Golden Tee - the ultimate pub game - a golf simulator. With a huge cash prize as the machines world wide are all networked...

1) Golden Tee is farking critical
2) Trivia (either networked or where the players bring their own questions to try and stump opposing teams - all questions must be approved by judge).
3) Well defined areas. A pub is a pub, a bar is a bar, and a club is a club. None of these should intermix.
4) Jukebox packed with American & British music from the 60's to the early 90's. Everything since is crap (with rare exception of some quality Britpop groups).
5) Decent bar food including chips & salsa, fish & chips, quesadillas.
6) Ridiculously attractive female waitstaff (you don't apply to work there, you're recruited)
7) Satellite TV that doesn't interrupt the American football playoffs for some crap D league soccer match between Cockerglouschestershire and Nottingbumwankerham.
8) A bouncer with the license sevely beat anyone who spontaneously breaks into "Country Road."

An add on would be some real f...ing American style buffalo wings. No honey sauce or barbeque sauce that you get at most places taht serve buffalo wings.

Jimbo, you might wanna jump in. Your semi-traditional English pub is rapidly becoming a replica Hard Rock Cafe outlet.

Speaking of Buffalo wings, has anyone found and know of a place in Munich that makes them the right way? Chicken wings with real buffalo wing hot sauce, blue cheese, carrots and celery?

Why are they called Buffalo wings anyway eh? Buffaloes do not have wings so what's the deal?

Quite right Keydeck. It's gonna be the Queens Head, smell of smoke, and actually permanently contain a fog of cigarette smoke. During the day time there will never be more than 3 people there, everything will be dark green - furniture, the signs, the carpet...everything. In the evenings the music will be up as loud as possible and there will be 40-50 year olds making out like they are back at school and nobody can see. There will be one attractive bar staff member, but she will be attractive in a trailer park kind of way. And get pregnant and leave.

And that ladies in getleman is what a Dagenham or other East London boozer should look like.

Apparently they are called wings because it's usually the wing of the chicken that's used and allegedy they were invented in a restaurant in Buffalo.

Come on. Even the stupidest of tourists should know that German helles is far superior to English lager. And if they don't, then it's your responsibility as a publican to show them the error of their ways.

If you have to have English beers, I'd say Newcastle Brown Ale (bottled, not draught) and maybe one bitter. And obviously you'd have Guinness and Kilkenny (not that I'm putting those under the umbrella of "english" beers, mind).

If your going to have an English Pub, then you have to have an English Beer there, it is just for show. Aussie Bars have Fosters and lets face it, it tastes like piss.

Classic Engish food for the menu - Giant Yorkshire Pudding with any filling.

You wanna have a small variety of cocktails! Its always a winner with the ladies! Not too many though about 10 will do and they have to be different to all the other bars! When i worked in a bar in Ireland there was a cocktail called strawberry mojito and was very popular!!!

Here is a link were you can look up different cocktails

http://www.barnonedrinks.com/index/cocktails/

OH, you mustn't give it some typical BS British/Irish/American name. It needs to be something with an obscure reference to geeky pop culture book or movie; something from Hitchhicker's Guide or The Big Lebowski.

Monkey related names are also good: Monkey Island 6, Ape's a Poppin', Hail to the Chimp, The Monkeybar.

Nah, I just like "Lebowski's." If it isn't obvious, I slept 2 hours last night.

Oh, and yes, Buffalo Wings were invented at Frank & Theresa's Anchor Bar in Buffalo, NY.

I think you all are missing the point, this possible project of Jimbo & someothers is for an english pub. Get that ENGLISH PUB. Not american not Irish just simply english.

Now, can we get back on the right track?

And give me J's coat while we're at it

Oh but we were talking about putting in a little Dutch sense as well...

Bony bits of crap and sinew, wrapped up in rank chicken skin. Ah yes, the chicken wing. I for one have absolutely no idea why anyone would actually choose to eat chicken wings. Other parts of the chicken have more meat, and taste better. Fiddling about trying to nibble the last shred of tendon from a skinnny arse little bone can be left to the chinese. I use chicken wings for stock, and that is as far as it goes.
No chicken wings
No prawn cocktails
No well done steaks
No well done meat of any kind
No black forest gateau, pavlova, or baked alaska
No schnitzel shite (however you spell that evil word)
No rock hard bread that has entire ears of corn or massive bits of bloody seeds in it
No marmite anywhere on the premises

Maybe an official bar chant "Beer is ok, Beer is ok"

Ok, I won't post anymore...

If you mean Dutch like the Billy Bars then yes.
If you mean Dutch like manky smelly hippies moaning a lot then no.
Hooray for filled yorkshire puddings
And Jim, that barmaid needs a few tattoos and preferably a black eye. If pregnant, 20 Rothman's should be within arm's reach at all times.
Hang on. I actually used to pull pints in Romford. Wot am I liiiiike?
Would cheese toasties be ok? And please consider tins of Tennants lager, the one's with the dolly birds on the side. Or 80 Shilling Ale. Dry roasted peanuts should also be available.

pints are about the only thing that is safe to pull in romford...

are you a true sx gul then?

No. My passport says not. I did have the misfortune to be dragged up there though but still bear the emotional scars (including a pathalogical hatred of white shoes).

1) shit beer.
2) beer stained carpet.
3) resident pub nutter.
4) resident fruit machine pest who tells you always to hold when you see 2 lemons.
5) resident bitter old bloke who turns after a few pints.
6) mass brawl in the car park at closing time especially on friday and saturday.
7) illegal sky tv for watching football etc.
8) spotty tw@t in replica shirt who shouts his head off all game and claims to be number 1 fan and when england plays is patriot number 1 and abuses johnny foriegner instead of being there and doing the business himself .
9) resident divorced mum with 3 kids who dolls herself up on a friday night, leaves the kids to burn the council house down and gets what she can behind the skittle alley before getting a chinese take away which consists of shit in a silver tray.
10) resident bunch of lads who are a right bunch of lads.
11) resident bunch of slappers who get on the bitch piss i.e bacardi breezer and hooch and think they are god's gift - especially after the summer holiday in ayia napa when they've got a faded tan and the show their white thong off and their celtic design tattoo on their back with low cuts jeans etc.
12) squaddie on leave who drinks like a loon for the entire stay home.

courtesy acquascrotum.
here.
Worst Expat Bars In Munich

bring it on.

The menu needs to be simple, but quality - people are much more likely to travel for food IMO, and so a decent reputation for food is always a good idea - the trouble is keeping the diners separate from the drinkers...

Going back to the expat thing, I agree, it's something of a dirty word, but to be honest, i think you'll always have a target audience that way. If the place becomes too much of a regular Lokal, then the expats will drift away...

As far as English beer goes, yeah, I would agree that Newcastle Ale would be nice - but I do wonder about the validity of the comment re: everybody knowing that German beer is better. Some Brits want to travel, but they want as much of home to come with them as possible - be interesting if and when Bondi get a good Helles in, to see how quickly the sales of Fosters drop away...

Pub menus are a cinch. Disregarding the sous-vide ready made garbage served across the length and breadth of Britain (a la "Hungry Horse" chain), you are actually on a winner with good food in a pub. "Bistro" food they often call it these days I think.

Good pub food should be nothing more than a well chosen selection of dishes, all cooked from fresh ingredients where possible, and all cooked well - consistently.
You simply HAVE to offer some form of "steak and chips", but thats fine, as long as you don't go down the road of Steak and chips served with peas, onion rings, a corn on the cob, coleslaw, pickled beetroot and a meaningless pile of three wilted leaves and a slice of cucumber buried under a pile of cress masquerading as some sort of salad garnish.
If you offer a good steak, a couple of choices of a sauce, and serve it with 'pommes lyonnaise' (chips really, but pan fried in butter with onion & parsley chucked in) and a pile of nice looking salad leaves lightly coated in a balsamic & olive oil, then it would sell.

No bloody kids menus either. People want to take their kids out, they can go to bloody Burger King. No place in pubs for kids. "Family Pub" my arse. Contradiction in terms.

If you want to open a pub, I'd be in on it.

I have ideas - I also have capital...

One of the things that a lot of people (even the less intelligent tourists) associate with Germany is the good beer. I can see where you're coming from with regards to people wanting to have something from home, although I still think you'd end up only having the English lager for the sake of having it. Most people would drink the German beer. Would anyone here choose Carling over Augustiner?

It would be the same in Bondi - if they got Augustiner in I reckon the sales of Fosters would go down drastically.

@Don Riina - you should be a chef mate Sounds like a great idea - and yeah, bistro food is what I would be looking for - perhaps a burger menu, to compliment it though, or maybe a Saturday lunch time menu type affair for the footie fans. And an all day breakfast. I'm not having a pub that doesn't do an all day breakfast.
@Malc - yep, agreed I suppose - it would be there just for the sake of it. Perhaps just buy some bottles of Stella in as a nod to the English tradition of drinking piss flavoured toilet cleaner. When/if Bondi sort out a Helles, I think we'll see Fosters and Krony rapidly disappear...then again, we are talking about Australians, and he who thinks Australian...
@Hazza - I've had several PMs from people now, all of whom expressing an interest in opening something up over here...I might have to investigate this matter a little further. Keydeck's thoughts re: Diageo involvement are interesting, but I'm not sure where they would draw the line regarding a Helles being on tap - the advantage of Diageo is that we could get Smirnoff Black Ice - or at least look into getting it, as nowhere in Munich has it, and with that we've got Pootle as our first regular...

all sounds good, keep it english, but you have to have helles and wiessbier.
basically do everything that bondi doesn't and it should be all good

All Day Breakfast - required. Need your morning grease to get you back into a drinking mood.
Burger Menu - yep. Need something that is not really a meal, more of a snack, and soaks up the piss. No bloody vegeburgers or beanburger crap though. Burgers are meat. If you are a vegetarian, don't choose a bloody burger. In fact, just piss off full stop. Never heard a proper french word for vegetarian in my life.
Lunchtime footy menu - nice. Though I won't cook for Manyoo fans (well, not without adding a little extra something to their food)

I remember there being a reason why Bondi doesn't serve Helles or a decent Weißbier. Can't actually remember what the reason was though - perhaps Bex could shed some light on it?

I'd be interested if knowing more about the financials that would be involved in opening an expat bar. I have the capital to contribute but I'd want to know what sort of return to expect...

If anyone is seriously thinking about going somewhere with this, drop me a line. As I mentioned, I've done quite a bit of research on this already in sofar as speaking to the companies involved in financing & setting up a pub and also a number of agencies in terms of finding a suitable premises. I've basically grown up with the drinks industry due to my father spending over 40 years with Guinness (i.e. Diageo) and can provide quite a bit of practical input. Due to various circumstances I decided against directly going ahead with a project myself, but would be quite happy to share any info that I've accumulated.

Footy menu - I like the sound of that more and more - not sure I could handle serving a gooner anything though apart from a slap, and after yesterday, Notts Forest fans aren't high on my list of likes. And nor are Oldham fans...

@keydeck
The times we talked about it we weren't making jokes or picturing ideal situations, we were pretty serious about it.

I shared the idea with San, he ran a bar for a year a couple of years ago, and I'm sure he's more than willing to contribute his knowledge/experiences.