Trying to save a relationship

You kno I'd go talk to the guy already --- find out how long you've been lied to etc. etc. The worst thing about benig cheated on is the constant searching for why and what ... when you know it gets easier... but I disagree with Anthony - if someone is an asshole then I'll call em that right to their face _ I wouldnt dress it up at all - there are folks in my family who have done similar things and we had to face up to reality. Why should we save face for them ? They wouldnt have done it for us.

Christ, I don't know what I want...I don't want to see the guy. I want to know how she can leave and think she is in love with someone else while carrying my child.
I want all this to end. I want my kids to know me as their father. I don't want some other guy adopting them, giving them his name, seeing them more than me or anything else like that. I hate this...

Not a problem


My point was that the children will suffer enough from the split, adding a hostile relationship between their parents causes immense emotional trauma.

You need to get an uninterested party to go talk to him. Don't do it yourself unless you have witnesses tagging along with you. They should also have a camera for unambiguity. I feel for you and she has probably gone to far for anything good to come out of you two being together at this point.

I don't think I can be friends with her though if we split. She has betrayed me and lied to me. She gave me false hope and pretended that we could work things out but she isn't really doing that. She tried to lay the blame on me at the start when she was the one doing her utmotst to destroy it.

You don't have to be friends, just partners in raising the kids.

No need for hostility ... DMW can be totally honest with his kids ... wouldnt have it any other way ... if his former girlfriend wishes to bullshit his kids that's her perogative ... she didnt seem to have a problem lying to their ol man. Kids arent so stupid anyway ... they'll question and question until they're answered with something - may as well be the truth.

But its such a long time down the line before I can really explain anything to them. One of them isn't even born yet.

I really understand you here. You should try very hard to forgive her for being human and having confusing human feelings and making human mistakes even though it hurts. Try to let go of your pride, it isn't going to do you any more good. If it suits you, pray for her and pray for you to receive the courage and strength to forgive.

LOL man... go re-read the thread ... soak your head in ice or something and get outta town for a while ... perhaps after you've spoken to Ringo and the lawyer ... from clarity you'll find yourself again and build a new life.

christ back at you, talk to a lawyer before you go talking to anyone. keep in mind that he could be used as a character witness. in which case should you really further involve yourself with this man? i mean, unless your 100% positive that you can keep your cool, your gf wouldn't see it as some form of ancillary stalking, AND thay he would 100% portray an interaction in a 100% positive light...

jml is right, DMW - going to see this bloke is not a good idea
go see your lawyer instead
you don't want to do anything that might jeopardise your position

As the product of a broken home (parents divorced when I was around 7 years old) I can only say it was the best thing they could have done for us.

I have recollections of the atmosphere of anger that pervade our home in the lead up to the final break up but like Marshbot's parents, my parents also made sure my sister and I knew they still loved us but as a couple it was best that they didnt live together any more.

In our case we were moved to another country (okay, so it was only from England to Scotland) but it seemed like the other side of the world from our father. The most important thing was for my father to stay in touch and we spent each summer vacation with him until we moved back south again.

From what you have written so far I would forget saving the relationship with your gf and concentrate on your kids. Do everything you can to get her to sign the co-parenting papers and move on. Prolonging the agony of what seems inevitable is only going to affect your kids and maybe push her into a hostile corner where she tries to stop you ever seeing them again.

All the best

I'm sure it probably was but as you never experienced the alternative route I guess its a bit tricky to say really.

Well, assuming that as adults they new what was best for themselves, the choice between staying together and hating each other just for the sake of us kids, would not have been as helpful as divorcing and finding new partners that made them happy.

Well, he experienced the alternative route up until he was 7, so he can make some comparison.

I agree with him. I remember the before-divorce stuff too and it was shit.
Plus I can chat to my folks about it now and know it was the best decision. I'm soooooo glad they didn't stay together.

On the other hand my grandparents have stuck it out as a couple and are spending their lives driving each other fucking insane, are currently talking divorce at the how-ever-ancient-age they are and still subjecting their adult children to witness their fights and arguments. Brrrrrr. Shudder. I can't imagine being that old and regretting something so much. That freaks me out.

I am a strong supporter of couples knowing when to cut their losses and call it quits. I don't think it's cowardice, I think it takes a bit of courage. And when there are children in the mix I think it's even more important for some eye opening and self truths. You can't fake a happy family, kids aren't stupid.

DeadManWalking, don't see him. It could be used against you in court. You need to find a way of getting custody over your kids. Maybe you should try to prove that she is an unfit mother, that way you end up with the kids and she has to change her tune! She is the one who started cheating, even if it has only been mentally cheating thusfar, she is the one getting a flat across from this new man, she is the one who ended the family-like relationship your child was enjoying. That should count for something? Does she take drugs or medication? Maybe you could prove that she is mentally unstable? Anything! I know it might sound horrible coming from a Cowgirl and all, but I think your children will be better off with you. Also know that this other guy will loose interest in her soon, don't worry about him taking your place. Your children will not get his name, because their relationship will also not last. Besides, it is only a name. If you wanted your children to have your name you should have married her. Many couples live with different names. Names mean nothing. Being a good father does mean something. Some other man will also not adopt your children as long as they have a real biological father. Don't worry so much, you do have some rights. Fight for them as hard as you can! I have not been here this long, but reading this thread has made me very angry at this woman. Be strong, fight!

probably not grounds for taking the kids away from their mum though


and that would mean he is just like her...who you claim makes you very angry

She does not sound like a fit mother to me. She should know what's best for her children and not chase after other guys like this! It is not easy being a mother, it's work, it's responsibility! It's not fun and games, you don't follow the smell of pherormones like a pubescent child.

I guess thats true for almost every mother or father who has ever divorced/split up then

I like cowgirl , but I think he hasnt a friggin hope

I find myself reluctantly being drawn to voicing my opinion here as I normally avoid this kind of topic. I have not read all the posts either so forgive me if i miss something.

However a number of thoughts occur.

DMW - seems like a little head clear might be in order. can you possibly get out of town for a weekend ? Go visit a friend or something - just a change of scene so you can pull things into perspective. there is a lot to digest here, a lot of emotions on your part and a lot differnet voices giving different perspectives. that can all be overwhelming. i tihnk that whatever you decide to do here -you need to do it with a clear mind.

there are a number of options. lawyers being one. Nothing wrong with obtaining a legal opinion (in fact DO that) - but i would be VERY careful about mentioning that to your girlfriend - its a bit like unsheating your sword to do battle - she might back down or she might go get her own lawyer and with the law against you need to be prepared for that first - extreme tact is necessary and timing is everything.

Now something else to consider. Your girlfriend has just done a massage course yes ? I can tell you from personal experience that massage training course are very emotionally charged environments. Bodywork such as massage can have strong effects psychologically. Its possible that some of the work during the course might have messed with her head a bit and shes a bit turned around (sometimes old memories come up, injuries, traumas etc it can be overwhelming - I had a full on visual flashback to an accident once complete with the fear and pain of the accident). What style of massage is it - if its a good one they should be aware of this an d manage it. if not so good then this stuff might happen to her and she doesn't konw why and gets all turned around and maybe thats why shes lost it a bit (interesting that her sister has noticed shes not herself too). Now I'm not saying this is the case - I'm just saying its possible.

There is also something in the client-therapist relationship called transferance. Any good mind or body therapist will watch out for it. What it means is that as the therapist is helping the client - the client begins to see this person as the solution to all there problems and sort of develops an infatuation for the therapist (its a form of denial and avoiding your problems). Now a good therapist will not allow this to develop - or if is does tak steps to counteract it including if necessary stopping the treatments. A bad one will not notice that this is happening. an evil one might try and manipulate it for their own reasons. However in massage training courses this kind of shit happens all the time as you are practising on each other and everyone is everyone else client and therapist etc etc - it all gets a bit messy. I've seen all kind of stuff happen on massage courses in terms of people cheating on partners etc. There are also lots of rows amongst people (all and all its a very charged atmosphere). So maybe theres a bit of transferance or something going on with the massage teacher guy. Maybe not. If this is the case - I don't think you can particulalry do anything about it - she might have to figure it out herself. But at least you know its a possible explanation. (the sister might know something here but I would be wary what you say to her - DO NOT mention lawyers to her)

One thing you should accept though. you have no power over her and you cannot make her love you. In fact maybe the only thing you can do is disengage - this might not get you what you want -but at least you are in control of your own situation. The difficulty here is of course the kids - this is why you need a legal opinion. You need to find out if you end the relationship how does that affect your rights as a father. Again you need to very careful.

Finally I think you need to prioritise in a cool and calculated manner - the more you can leave the emotions out of it the better. What are your priorities ? I would suggest: a) the kids emotional health and safety b ) your own emotional health and safety and c) if and only if the first two are assured - the health of your relationship with her.

In terms of the other guy. Forget him. hes is an uncontrollable factor. you have noinfluence on him and he is utterly irrevant as far as you are concerned in terms of the above three objectives (yes for c too - she will make her own mind up). Meeting him is NOT a good idea. There is nothing you can gain from that. He will only wind you up, it would only strengthen her position with the kids and you will come away feeling worse than before. The ONLY sensible thing you can do about him is ignore him.

Ok so try and find some way to clear your head. For now -forget about objective c -you are powerless in that regard (as we all are !) - in fact scratch it off the list if necessary. Focus on a and b - thats your aim.

@DMW

Don't speak to Ringo, don't mention to her that you'll be seeing a lawyer. That's all the extra advise I can give you, I'm afraid.

Well yesterday she met the guy again for coffee. At this stage I'm just trying not to let it bother me...
However I decided to ask her straight out if she will sign the Sorgeerklärung giving joint custody of the kids and she refused.
I'm still waiting for the legal advice and I've had problems trying to get free advice. Either the places have closed down or there is nobody there. Even the Irish consulate is shut until the 29th of this month...

Come on mate... Dont Punish yourself! and more importantly, DONT antagonise her!

As said yesterday, she will do what she wants and you will have no or little influence...

This may sound Harsh, but IF things do pick-up between her and this other bloke, she will be needing Child care/ baby sitters etc... Just make yourself available.. who knows, she may just realise just how much the Kids mean to you...

Hope this makes sense..

G

was she nice at some point in your relationship?

have you asked her why she won't sign?

She said she won't sign because she doesn't want to give up any control of the kids.

has she moved out yet? If so, do you have a workable situation at least with regard to seeing junior? I guess maybe she hasn't moved out yet though

No she hasn't moved out yet. She is still waiting to hear aboutt he flat and if she gets it she can move in on the 1st of October

Go and pay for a German lawyer before it is too late. If you are the father, are on the birth certificate as the father, you are entitled to a heck of a lot more than she is letting on. After 1998 or so there was something passed to the effect of not discriminating "unehelichen" kinder and giving the fathers a lot more rights. Go to a real asshole like Messmer and sue for fatherhood (if you are not down as the father - can't remember) and then sue for joint custody - or, this is a bit different, visitation rights for half the holidays, half the vacation and every other weekend.

One other thing, from experience, if you ever talk to "this guy", he will tell her all about the conversation, and he will tell her you said things that you did NOT say. She will confront you with this, and you will not have a foot to stand on.

As others have said, you have no control over him, or her for that matter. What they do with each other is completely irrelevant to anything. It will not impact your rights in ANY way.

Another warning: When you see a lawyer, before the end of the meeting, you will realize that you MUST have a lawyer. This is his job. Unless things are tragically worse here than where I come from (the United States of Lawyers), then remember that you do NOT need a lawyer. When you use a lawyer, you gain nothing but large legal bills and a hostile relationship with your ex.

the lawyer can advise DMW of his rights, though
and since he's not 100% where he stands, then he needs a decent lawyer to advise him otherwise his girlfriend will be able to lead him a merry dance unless he finds out what exactly the legal situation is

I agree with Topsy- he needs his rights in writting! The girlfriend is not giving him any custody, and he needs to protect his parental rights. For that he needs a lawyer. Yes, it will cost, but he will then have certain rights to see his kids. He needs to protect him and the children. He has nothing in writting now, so she could move to Spain and he is totally out of the picture. Without a leg to stand on.

DMW: you're only getting the most depressing info from the Internet that you read as favoring her side and you have no rights -- for months now, since May 30, and you still haven't got a lawyer. Two hours after your first post here, brokenm was the first who told you to get a lawyer. So I googled "sorgerecht 'nicht verheiratet'" and got several things that said that you will legally have the right to see your kid even if you don't get that Sorgerechterklärung signed.

http://www.elternimnetz.de/cms/paracms.php...d=5&page_id=314

http://unieltern.asta.uni-hamburg.de/familie.html

http://www.muenchen.de/Rathaus/soz/stadtju...913/6_org1.html -- that's the city Jugendamt. You should be able to go talk to them anytime -- TOMORROW -- and get a general idea of what's going on, even if your "person who knows a lawyer" still hasn't gotten back to you. Go there. Call first, like Katrina says on this Thread on custody issues that she pointed out to you right after brokenm's post.

Here's a father's rights organization: http://www.vafk.de/ You never posted which ones you'd looked at.

recht.de -- Familienrecht has loooots of people who're really specialized on this subject, don't know if they're lawyers or not, but they're Germans at least. I don't know how good your German is, but the way you've been posting, I get the impression that you can't possibly be understanding all you're reading or you'd know by now that your kids have the right to see you and you wouldn't be feeling so powerless.

Sorgerecht.de -- with a forum called Besuchtsrecht. Okay, so they're crap spellists. I read a couple threads there, and saw people pointing out something we haven't said here -- your kid has a right to two parents. It's not your right to see him, it's his right to see you. Ha! I even put it the other way around further up. These Germans do make good points sometimes.

Custody is not the same as Visitation rights. Remember the differences between sole custody, shared custody, and visitation rights. Sole custody (alleinige Sorgerecht) for one parent tends to go along with serious visitation rights (Umgang) for the other parent, unless the court says that the non-custodial parent is abusive or something.

You need to get rid of your attitude that "she's already won, I have no rights" because you have not adequately informed yourself. Threats are very effective in family law because the people involved don't want to hurt the ex-partner, hurt the kids, get confrontational, etc. These threats are just depressing you though. You have to defend yourself. You have to be active and stop just letting this happen to you.

Ommmmmmmm. Ommmmmmmm. Much better now.

Ok so you were doing the counseling, which was good, ok so you get some slack for that retroactively. But get to the Jugendamt and get a lawyer NOW!

Having followed this thread there seems to be a concensus emerging:

SEE A F%&KING LAWYER TODAY!!!

If you don't you are just going to tie yourself up in knots and you won't be able to deal with your partner effectively since you don't know what the limits of the law are, regarding your kids. Even if you do patch things up you should be aware of this stuff.

Nice work, Gen!

I have phoned that "city Jugendamt" and was told to ring another number who then sent me to another number which hasn't answered all day.
So instead I have an appointment with a lawyer for a consulation at 5:30 tomorrow. But its going to cost a fair bit, even more than the counsellor and I'm already broke. No such thing as free advice I guess...

DMW - I promise, it's worth every penny when it comes to your kids.

Okay, I've just got back from having a talk with the lawyer. So basically my girlfriend has sole custody at the moment and there is no way to make her sign for joint custody. I will have visitation rights however which she can't prevent unless she claims I am a danger to the children or something. However if we can't agree on times and the like then a court will rule on how often and when I can see my kids but the lawyer said that in practice it is very difficult to enforce. So should she start making it difficult there isn't much I can do.
The worst thing I found out was how much money she can claim from me. Not only do I have to pay for the 2 kids but I also have to support her while she is looking after them. This will bleed me dry. She will be getting more money than I have.
And for what, running off with another guy...

DMW

How's your state of mind bearing up? Have you got support from your fam?

Don't get silly on us now, or anything ...

good on you for seeing a lawyer. one thing to consider is that other guy COULD BE an ally to you in this. It sounds as if he has a kid that he likes to see as well as an ex wife he's got to get on with. i mean guy to guy one can easily understand wanting to be a good father to your kids? something to keep in mind when and/or if your paths cross...

Oh and DMW - don't be too pessimistic about the kids and your relationship.

My mum divorced my dad when I was 5, my little brother was just two. Apart from the fact that the old man is a bit odd, and has had a funny way of showing us his love over the years, he is still and always will be, our dad.

And you sound like you are willing to make a lot more effort to see us than Pops ever did.

There are millions of divorces out there. You will not be alone as a single father. Any unreasonableness on her part will come back to haunt her when kiddies are old enough to think for themselves.

@mtv, my state of mind is pretty f*cked up at the moment...I'm getting seriously angry and depressed. I'm in turmoil inside.

@DMW

Whats for you will not pass you.

Someone said that to me once and it gave me alot of comfort at the time, for what its worth.

And to think that only 4 months ago I was thinking how great my life was, a new job, another baby on the way...
And now my life is more fucked up than I ever imagined it would be.

And none of it is your fault . You see now why I say run.

@parnell, I understand and my parents even suggested that I should just move back to Ireland but I can't abandon my kids like that. I want to be a part of their everyday life.

I've just got to hope that at some point it will get easier again.

Hi, dont know you but was reading all your posts...can I just say something??? Everything in our lives happen for a reason although you may not realise it now considering what you are going through, people pass through our lives for reasons, some for good and some bad. It is up to each individual to try and figure out why people are in and out of our lives and we should make the best of it! Whatever you are expriencing right now is not happening just because...but since it is happening, get to the root of the matter by finding out what should be done. Maybe she came into your life to give you the two most beautiful children in the world but only for that. Cherish those kids and enjoy them because you made them and they are special and will always be. They are your priority now and that is what matters at the end of the day. All the best!!!

@DMW

I still find the behaviour or your girlfriend completely off. It really made me sad reading what is busy happening to you. It convinced me even more that you should really take no prisoners anymore. Regarding finances: There is always one way out for guys in your situation.. get yourself declared bankrupt. It is the way of getting out of paying alimony. Many men do that. I used to find it disgusting that men do that, but in your special case I'd say go for it. Get yourself informed. Once they've declared you bankrupt you can always pay for your kids out of your own free will. You don't really have to be bankrupt to be declared bankrupt, I'm sure you could find a way to cheat the system as many men do it. A customer of mine did that to his family. It worked for him. He is German and has his own company, lives very well and has never payed a cent towards his ex-wife and his children. He is a very nasty piece of work though, not like you. You really seem to love your children. He couldn't give a damn (has actually told me so).
Good luck!

But if get myself declared bankrupt, won't it f*ck things up for me in a lot of other areas, like ever getting a loan again or a mortgage?