Trying to save a relationship

The Jugendamt won't be too happy about you withholding maintenance payments but I would check out one of the fathers rights organisations as Gen suggested.

I find it hard to believe that she could survive on social payments though, not prying too much but has she an extra income other that work as a therapist ?

I find it sad that so many are thinking of DMWs son in terms of who has rights and who wins a custody battle. It would really be in both childrens best interests if their parents could look at the situation in terms of responsibilities rather than rights and keep a bit of focus on limiting the damage they may do to them.

No, no other income. But seemingly with 2 kids the government will be paying her enough that she is happy to try living on it.

Just leaving but I don't think it's possible to live on the Kindergeld, not in Munich, but that's another story.

i guess if you get a council flat from the Sozialamt it might be?
the rents on them flats are really cheap
they're like gold dust, though

to be honest what does it 'matter' if DMW opposes the moving. I'm assuming he isn't going to physically restrain her to prevent her from leaving - and thus isn't Saudi Arabia where the guy 'owns' the woman.

Just curious DMW, why are you at the pub quite often if you have a young son and pregnant wife - could that be part of the problem? - criticism intended in a constructive manner

Drinks to remember, I me and myself
And winds up the clock
And knocks dust from the shelf
Home is a love that I miss very much
So the past has been bottled and labelled with love.

Looking forward to the answer to this: if you're registered as the father and don't pay, won't the state come make you pay (and garnish your wages if you refuse) before they give her single mother money? And while they're garnishing your wages they'd insist that you get to see the kid.

Fine to not be confrontational, I agree that that's the last thing you want to do right now, but yeah, get informed -- it'll give you a better standing in the conversations you have if you know exactly what your rights are. Her threats will be empty. (Assuming she's making any, I may be just assuming that.)

Am I at the pub quite often or did I give that impression? I usually only make it out about once a month or so. I'd been in the pub a bit more since this situation started but it wasn't like she wanted me to stay around and do things with her.
She always said that she was happy for me to get out and meet people and that I should do it more often.

There is a difference between actively opposing and not doing so b_r, by not opposing in exchange for the Sorgeerklärung he could, say, help her with the move, make sure that her new place is set up properly and keep it amicable.
No he can't restrain her, but he can make it bloody difficult ("oops I've lost those papers that you need", it could very easily get very messy).
It may break his heart doing this but he's got kids to consider and they come first.
By saying "hey, this is shit, if that's what you want, then OK *but* those are my kids too and we need to sort this Sorgeerklärung out, especially now as I won't be able to do things like support you by collecting the kid from kindergarten or the like". Yes that is a marketing strategy but it is something which clearly concerns DMW (and should do too). Some kind of arbitration may be necessary (either with your counsellor, possibly the Jugendamt, Caritas, etc.) too.
Hope things work out, I really do.

a friend of mine went through this, actually - if you get to the stage where you need some kind of arbitration then pm me and i'll sort you out with the contact details

Thanks. I'll do that if I need it.

We just hit a new low over the weekend. On Friday I came back from work and found that she was in the local playground with our son and the massage teacher and his daughter.
I asked for an explaination and it turns out she had contacted him during the week asking if he would like to meet sometime. She claims its just so they can be friends but it just seems to be more than that now she starts making an effort to meet this guy because the course is finished.
It turns out that he split from his girlfriend a year ago and is living just across the road from the flat that my girlfriend has applied for.
I asked why it was so necessary to meet up with this guy now, right when she tells me she wants to make the relationship work. I mean if she really did then she wouldn't be giving this guy those signals would she and damaging our already fragile relationship.
In the end we started fighting about having access to the kids and she threated to take my son away and not let me see him at all. I told her she didn't have that right but she seems to think otherwise and told me basically that she would claim that I was a threat to the kids and ask that I be denied any contact. I told her that wouldn't stick since I could bring numerous witnesses including the therapist to whom she has already admitted that I am a good father. Now what?

did you already get yourself a lawyer?
might be a good idea to consult one, just to be sure where you would stand if the worst comes to the worst...

poor DMW, have a virtual hug -----> (((DMW)))

First hugs. Second, tough love. Now come over here so I can smack you upside the head. Make that two smacks if you haven't a lawyer on your rolodex yet. BTW: getting a lawyer doesn't mean your giving up on your relationship, it means your doing your damndest to protect your children's legal rights to their father. Read the wording carefully. Its about your children's rights, not the status of their parents love life.

My two cents: she probably knew he was available AND the exact distance of his flat to hers when she picked out the new apartment. I know its gotta be killing you but you really need to get this in your head: all your rants and demands for explanations are probably just pushing her away from you and to that guy NOT to mention making you look a wee bit pathetic. Frankly, I'm in your corner, I get how difficult and galling this is for you, but even *I* am tired of your complaints about this guy. Look, he probably started off as nothing more than a welcome distraction but your railings could possibly be making him more attractive as a real love interest. Thats just human nature. You can't make someone love you or lose their attraction for another human being, it just doesn't work that way. In the long run, if she's going to pick him over you, or two-time you, theres not a damn legal thing you can do besides live with it as best you can or walk away.

What you can do, however, is protect your children's rights. The reality is that german laws for fathers, especially unmarried ones, can be on par with a steady kick in the nuts. Your best bet is to just pull yourself together, get a lawyer, keep seeing your therapist, stay calm and stop wigging out about this guy.

tough love over. more hugs and good luck.

Sounds like it is time to see as much of the kid and as little of her as possible. I most definitely agree that it is time to get a lawyer. I might even consider a PI if it would help your case to insure your kids rights.

I 100% agree that you should contact a lawyer. I know I've been saying to give her a chance to get over her flipping out, etc., but it sounds to me like it's about time tell her it's over yourself (of course, within the limits of what might affect your custody). She doesn't deserve for the relationship to work out. I'd just focus on how you can keep the most contact with your kids while getting as far the fuck away from her as possible.

Edit: I also think that the only way this relationship can possibly recover (though perhaps not) is to back away and stop trying. jml's right. It's pushing her further away.

I'm in the process of getting a lawyer or at least some advice. Should at least know more tomorrow.

If anyone actually has any solid facts on the rights of an unmarried father then please feel free to post them here.
I am acknowledged as the father but never got to sign the form giving equal parenting rights.

Jesus this is heartbreaking stuff going on. God am I lucky to be happy with my family.

God bless this poor chap. I hope he hets through this shit time. I've had my share in the past, but thank God they are well and truly over.

Jeremy.

I've just been reading stuff on the internet about the rights of unmarried fathers and it doesn't look good.

@DMW

This is truly a major bummer. I am beginning to dislike your fair lady, what she threatend you with is seriously below the belt. If you were always a good father to your son (and the little one could testify that you were together with her own previous testimonies) I would say you have very good chances of getting to still see loads of your little ones! Leave this in the hands of a good lawyer, there's a lot of crappy so-called "information" to be found on the internet. Fight with everything you've got!

I'd link back to a certain previous thread but I think you've probably done a search and have seen it?
Hope things work out for you and the kids.

hey you said everything was ok because of hormones - followed by some cobblers about being proud to be a woman!

I would like to hear Her version of the story...

Presuming that she isn't going to sign a Sorgeerklärung anytime soon, it looks like I am rightly up the creek without a paddle. She is holding all the cards and I can't even oppose her as I have no legal standing.

it is true that there are two sides to every story, sonething that is often forgotten on this website, but even so, threatening his access to his kids like that is vile.

is that what your lawyer has told you?
or what your read on the internet?

Boomtown Rat, it could still possibly be a hormonal thing. But after having read all the facts I am beginning to see things differently. Threatening a man with taking away his child from him is absolutely nonexcusable. Seems I was wrong and I feel very sad for DMW although I don't even know him. But now he has to fight for his children with everything he's got. Not for the relationship. I think the time has come to let that be. That is a very nasty thing of her to have done.

This seems like one of those areas where talking to a professional (ask around for a good one in this area) would be a better idea than surfing the internet.

Thats what I've read so far. I'm waiting on a lawyer to come back to me with some info.

I dont think that any Judge will prevent a father from seeing his Kids unless there are reasons to beleive that he is danger to them..

G

I just wanna say one thing on this thread today and leave it at that - your lady was not "pushed away" , she walked through that door herself , she got no pushing from you whatsoever. My suggestion was to wind her up with jealousy and make her see that you're a valuable and attractive dude to have round... I hope that you see that you've been done over and face yourself with the truth that you've been lied to ... and what's more is that she's been comfortable with leaving you fester in that lie for quite some time ...

Right now you're seeing that all the cards are totally stacked in her favour which demonstrates just how sexist the law and society is ...

Aye, tell me about it.
I had a long discussion with her sister yesterday who happens to think that she has gone crazy at the moment as well. She knew about this guy but never told me because she felt is was up to my girlfriend to say something. At the moment I think my girlfriend is trying to keep her options open by keeping me hanging in case the guy says he doesn't want a relationship.

do you really want to get back together after all this?

@DMW. Sorry to hear this. All looked so hopeful for a while. Have to agree with Parnells post.

Wait for the lawyers feed back. I believe a while back that the rights of the father were shocking, but this is continuing to improve as they drag themselves into the 21st Centuary. Stay positive & Good Luck

@btr, Not sure anymore. I want the best for my kids which at the moment I still believe would be growing up in a family enviroment with both parents. However I'd also accept having access to my kids on a 50/50 basis and having nothing more to do with her.
For myself, I'd prefer that.

Hey DMW... The offer from Friday evening still stands by the way

Cheers Crawlie

I'm no expert on relationships but I think you should forget about trying to rekindle a relationship with this woman. It's obvious she's a nutcase or at the very least has an agenda and is using you as part of that. Based on what you describe, it sounds like she's hedging her bets. She probably prefers a relationship with this other guy but is stringing you along just in case. Forget about getting back together with her but fight with everything you've got to have access to your kids. Good Luck man!

I have 3 friends that are not active (living in the same house) with their children, but have generous visitation rights. Its then peaceful and the children are seeming to prosper. All the ex girlfriends found out after they broke up they were pregnant, seems all parties did try to work it out, but they all decided it was better for the children, to separate, and at least be friendly. One of them is actually now back in the US with her family, his family and their little girl on a holiday. I think that is wonderful, there is some animosity from time to time, but all parties are mature about it.

So, maybe getting your rights legally in writing is the best option, and start living your life, and building a healthy relationship with your kids.

If you stay on friendly terms with her that would be the best for you and your kids. This way, when the dust settles, and there is no animosity between the two of you in the future, there may be a change to get back together and be a family again. If you try and force this now, there'll just be arguments and resentment and feelings of being trapped, which is a terrible situation for your kids.
I think space is the best thing right now.
Hope it works out.

If things really aren't right, then don't let yourself fall into that trap. My parents should have gotten divorced when I was a kid, but they didn't. All that did was make my childhood a living hell. It might seem like it's the right thing to do, but I doubt it ever is.

At the moment I don't seem to have much choice other than to keep it friendly and try to secure the best deal possible for me in regards to the children. It just bugs me that I seem to be totally at her mercy on this.

@ipj, yeah I should have said a happy family. If things aren't going to improve then I'd choose the second solution.

I agree. Kids can sense hostility; don't do it to them.
I can't see how you can have a trusting or supportive relationship with her in the future.
Make a clean break, keep things friendly and work out the custody issues with the children in mind.
Forget any romantic relationship & don't feel you have to stay together in one house just because it paints a pretty picture of family life.
My parents split when I was young and I only remember feeling proud of them when I was little. They always explained honestly to me that they weren't happy together but loved us kids, they didn't want to end up fighting all the time, bla bla bla.
I never thought there was anything wrong with it. Actually, I thought it was kinda cool. 2 christmases, 2 birthdays and all that. My school friends were jealous.
I had turns staying with each of them and never had to see them fight. It just seemed normal and I'm glad they didn't force themselves to stick it out together for us.
Personally I would say - split with her FOR the kids.

I'm thinking about going and having a talk with him this evening...

I sometimes read this thread, being "experienced" myself. As you and others have suggested, she may be (like so many others) "relationship" addicted. Simply means that she establishes a new relationship she can safely move into before ending the previous one. Your relationship with her is over. Be open to the pain and start the healing process. She certainly won't be eager to really reconcile until you close the door on her. And I mean really close it, no pretending here.

One relationship author said, "the person in control of a relationship is the one least interested in the relationship".

As for the kids. Don't get sucked into playing her game. She is manipulating you like you are trying to manipulate her. Just stop it. It will only harm your children. You need to really look deeply inside yourself to see how you are trying to control her. The longer you avoid/deny this, the more suffering you have ahead of you. The sooner you accept that she is the best mother and you are the best father your children will ever have, the sooner you can establish a positive co-parenting relationship with her. Don't ever let your residual anger and resentment towards your ex to interfere in any way with your relationship with your children. Don't EVER badmouth your ex. It is bad karma.

I suppose it might make you feel better, in a slightly caveman style 'keep your hands off my property' way, to have it out with him but in some ways it doesn't depend on him - its the missus you need to sort stuff out with

I know...but if I knew what his intentions were at least it might help somewhat.