Trying to save a relationship

I've been relatively consistent all along - stop loving her so much - she might miss you more...uh and im ticketless

@parnell, I'll keep you in mind then if we split before the concert.

no sweat chum ... help yourself and your son and fuck everyone else who burns you out ... too good for em pal , too good for your own good I reckon.

Well, this evening is the counseling session and I am already getting nervous.
We made it through the weekend without fighting but I guess a lot of stuff will come out later on...

Did you make a date for dinner afterward? I thought that was a great idea.

Be sure to not "blame" her or make negative comments about her. Turn it around into about you. For example; Don't say that she does something wrong, but that when she does this something, it makes you beel bad.
Make a mental list of both good and bad things and try not to dwell on only the bad things. Good luck.

@ipj No, I didn't. Depending on how it goes I'm not sure whether I will want to have dinner...

@DeadManWalking - but you are missing part of the trick here. By booking dinner in advance you both know that you have an appointment together later - before the meeting even starts. This should help towards keeping things civil. Dinner is also on neutral 3rd party ground and means again that you cannot allow things to "kick off" for the duration of the meal.

perhaps it's a good idea to make a table reservation in advance...then if you really don't feel like it afterwards you can always cancel.
good luck tonight with everything by the way DMW.

@DMW!!!

Where are you fellah?

I can see you logged in!

Update please to your waiting fans...

Okay, here goes. We went along to the counsellor last night and we talked about a lot of things and how the relationship has reached the point that it has. We didn't cover everything we needed to within the time so we have agreed to go back again next week or the week after together to discuss some other issues and I will also attend another session on my own next Friday.
The main point that came up was that my girlfriend felt neglected for a long time and that I didn't show enough affection or open up enough to her and now that I want to make the effort she no longer believes that I can live up to the promises.
However she admitted that I had changed for the better in other areas over the years and that she thinks I realise now what she required from the relationship.
However she still seems intent on going her own way.
The counsellor said that I need to give her space and time to find out what she wants and not try to demand any quick solution from her.
So I have to suffer on quitely and try to use the time to improve myself...

DMW, that sounds like a really positive session. Seriously. You both talked, she said what was wrong from her viewpoint but also said certain things had gotten better. I think it's a good start. Good luck!

I feel a really strong parnell moment coming on here, and I . . . .
J-u-s-t
c-a-n-t
c-o-n-t-r-o-l
i-t!!!

Get a grip man!

Rejection hurts everyone. Its what makes humans suffer most. But listen to yourself. It takes two to tango. Stop the defeatist crap. You will feel angry at some point from now, and then you will feel better. But really shake yourself out of this. There are far worse losses that happen in life. Each of us could name one or two now.

It looks all bleak, but really you mustn't think the world is at an end.

I personally think you need to start taking protective measures. Change your thinking. Think about all you could do if you were single again. Whatever. But give up the ghost on this one. She has. And you are just torturing yourself.

Why don't you run the counselling sessions MTV ? And allow 24/7 access to your home phonenumber for the fallout afterwards.

@ showem, I'm still trying to figure out what I thought of it. My girlfriend came out more positive than me and it was kind of weird having somebody else tell you the truth of the situation just from listening to a part of our story.
Unfortunately there wasn't any light at the end of the tunnel and so reconciliation won't come any time soon.

DMW

I hate to say this but what did I tell you from the beg. and I don't even know you or your girlfriend. Sometimes one feels these things from the threads or posts.
I told you to just let go and that it is over. Maybe I am wrong but from the very beg. that is what I though and said. Ok. You had your share of mistakes. But she could have talked to you about this instead of just going her own way. So it was both of you.
Just be patient and let things happen its natural way. You can't fight nature or the natural flow of things.

I've given enough of my well-meaning advice to this guy. I don't need to run any further sessions.

But I'll fire off a last one from pulpit:

"If I am not for myself, then who will be for me? And if not now, when?"

@DMW

But to use a cliche...the most important thing is that you tried and are trying. 10 years from now if you are apart, and sharing the kids, then you can sleep at night in the full and certain knowledge that you did everything at the time to hold things together.

However today is the first day of the rest of your life. She is fully aware now of your thoughts and as it is her that is in effect trying to finalise the break - she must do the thinking now.

You - you need to now be strong and look in control (no woman really wants a man that is falling apart). Get yourself together, pick yourself up and go live this week. Do something or go somewhere fun that you have never done before.

Deep breath and never let the buggers get you down. ( a general statement - not directed at your missus).

@MTV

I'm sure your advice is well-meaning but DeadManWalking has his son to consider as well, so he can't really pull the ejector handle.

@DMW

I think the main thing, as was already said, is that you can say "I tried my best". You don't want to spend years mulling over some avenue you left unexplored. I hope it works out for you.

I like what I read once by a writer describing what Gandhi wrote. I am not an expert in this field so if someone wants to correct me please feel free. But Gandhi said that there is an absolute truth, and what each person sees is only one facet of this truth, that when you argue it is not that one person is right and the other is wrong, but that each sees their own side of the "true" truth. I believe this was his foundation for Satyagraha, which means something along the lines of holding fast and truth. The point is that you should never use violence to force someone else to see the truth, it is only through mutual discussion and understanding that together when both facets are combined, that you have a better view of what the "true" truth is.

The reason I bring this up is that what you perceive to be the problems of the relationship and what your girlfriend percieves to be the problems can only be helped when they are discussed. I feel that this is the point of the counselor, not to tell you what to do, but to give you each a chance to describe your facet of the problem. He will not know your feelings or your partners, no more than you can truly understand your partners. Therefore the counselor is a conduit to better communication. Whether this results in bringing you two back into the relationship or it helps you to understand what went wrong, it is a worthwhile venture and participate fully.

Johnny English is spot on - to have tried (and possibly failed) is a comfort.
At the very least, you will both be able to see how you both contributed.
And yes you should go and be nice to yourself until the next session, maybe go up to the mountains (it looks dry and ok weather this weekend)? Or take a day-trip somewhere with your son?
The ball is in her court but at least you played the shot and the ball is in.

I totally disagree with Rania. I don't think it's over. I think this is a really good step for you DMW. Like I said before she was falling for this other guy because he was listenning to her and letting her talk about her feelings. That can be hard for a guy and a girl to do. Her feelings for this other guy aren't real, they are just a symptom of things between the two of you. Counselling season don't give an automatic cure. This will take several sessions. You should try to go back sooner than later. Her being positive at the end of the session is a very good sign. But you need to be more positive. Negativity and depression are not attractive.

Obviously there are worse losses that can happen but so far for me in my life this is probably the worst that I have experienced. I have more to lose here than just a girlfriend who doesn't feel that same way about me as I do about her.
I am trying prepare myself for the times ahead, but I can't give up yet. Of course I have thought about all the things I could do if I were single again but I would gladly trade those in a heartbeat for the chance to live my life with both of my children and a wife everyday. To see them grow and to give them the very best that I can.
My son is happiest when both of us are there. He asked me on Sunday when I was going to come back and sleep in the bed with mummy.
If we can find a way to being a happy couple then I know my children will be happy.

Bang on. Put it far better than I did, JE.

KARMA for you ... why fight the urge ?

@ DMW
Now I'll put this straight as I can to you - you're being a pussy - and you're getting fucked - see this is the situation as your woman oulined it:

1. You werent giving her enough attention.
2. But things have gotten a lot better.

You see the problem here ? She's straight up lying to you and you're just taking it
- any rational person would say given the above

things are gettin better , i have a kid with this guy so fuck it , i'll hang with this and maybe I'll start smellin of roses soon.
It is an EXCUSE.

I'd be pissed at the counsellor honestly. I'm beginning to get pissed at you - it ain't your fault gumby so stop blaming yourself - go out and meet some chics , have them call you on your home number - make your woman see that she's losing a good thing - because brother that is the ONLY way you are gonna come out of this in one familial piece.

PS: I told y'all.

Sometimes though kids are happier when they see that parents are still friends even though they are no longer together and when they know that they are still loved by both parents. In my case that seems to be so. Only time will tell of course but I know my kids are happier now that when their mother and I were going through the bad times.

DMW

As I said before there is communication lacking in this relationship and a deep connection.
Don't take all the blame!!! PLEASE.
Why did she not talk to you about this before? It does not seem right that she just wants the easy way out and walk out of it.
If it was a deeper relationship then you guys would have talked about deeper things and not just ignored the issue.

Personally think this is the worst thing you can do. This is bullsh!t game playing. It's childish. You need to work out your problems not add new ones. She feels the way she feels. Maybe you don't understand why but guys and girls see things differently. Try to understand where she's coming from. I think the counselling will help.

This thread used to be about giving some helpful advice and opinions. Now it's like a competition about who was most right.

I want to get out and try enjoying myself, but it is very difficult. My mind keeps wandering back to the issue and draining away all the joy I can derive from doing something.
I might try to go out to the TT Tuesday drinks tonight.

Good stuff mate! I shan't be there, of course, but I think you really should drag yourself out. This motley crue will get you chortling.

I think you are not ready yet to fully enjoy yourself.
I think your mind will be on that issue no matter what you do cause it is an unexpected shock for you and a big change.
Just let the depression, anger and sadness happen. Don't block it or try to suppress it. I am sorry but there is nothing I can tell you to do now cause it will not help. The only thing I can say is please don't take all the blame. It it takes two to tango. It really does. She has been with this guy or whatever for about 1 year behind your back. If the relationship meant anything to her she would of acted like an adult and talked to you about it. Don't you see that there is something wrong here and it is not all your fault?
Just let things happen the way they are meant to happen.

You need to "reboot" your system. Do something to force your mind clear. I find some sport that needs concentration and is potentially dangerous (game of rugby, riding motocross, snowboarding) does the trick, or very simply going out (with some mates) and getting blind drunk. Perhaps a rock concert? White water rafting? Skydive? Night of Computer Games? Poker with scarier-than-you-want stakes?

See it as Electro Shock Therapy for your system. You need an adrenalin rush.

Climbing up the mountains I think allows too much of the dreaded thinking time.

Hell at worst you can come for a spin on the back of my motorbike - that will take your mind off the issues!!!

First of all, @ Rania

WTF? Didn't your mother ever teach you not to say 'I told you so?' Get some manners and try to pick up a little sympathy on the way. And 3 points of bad karma for you. Klugscheisser!

Secondly, DMW, don't let people try to tell you to 'give up', 'kick her the hell out', 'get on with your life' etc. Do what you feel is best for YOU. At some point in time, maybe next week, next month or next year, you are going to come to a point where you will say 'I've fought hard enough for this relationship. I have done everything that I know I can possibly do and it's time to move on'. Only you will know when it is time to do this.

When you do come to the realization(or maybe things will work out and no one can possibly know if that is going to happen or not), you will at least say to yourself 'I gave it everything I've got and if that's not enough, then Fuck it!'

The other thing that helps is to know that you are not the first person to go through a bad breakup(nor will you be the last) and you will survive and be a better person for it.

Good luck!! You'll be fine!

I also think it's great if you get out and meet some new people and try to enjoy yourself...it will keep things in perspective for you and make your decisions easier as well as providing some temporary distraction from the tough time you're having at the moment.

it's great advice about not blaming yourself it really seems that you're trying hard to do all you can.

and remember that whatever happens you'll be fine you really will.

all the best to you dude.

Um, question for all the people are are telling DMW to give up and run away: do any of you have kids? Because it seems to me that once children are involved, a bit more effort is called for.

This was only the first counseling session, it is SO not time to give up yet. Maybe the counseling will help bring you back together, maybe it will help you organize an amicable separation. Either solution would be better than just stomping off in a huff because the bitch is all bad and you are all good, and losing your kids in the process.

@Parnell: we've only heard his side, how do you know that she's all wrong and he's all right?

@Rania: why didn't she say all this before, well, because things build up slowly and sometimes you don't see them happening until they become intolerable. Talking to a therapist, laying it all out at once, is sometimes the first time you actually see the whole picture.

been there, done that: DH and I fell apart after 2 years of marriage. We went to marriage counseling for half a year, then the couselors gave up on us and sent us to individual therapists. After another half a year, I moved back to WA with the kid. We were separated for a year, and then we got back together. The details will be different for every couple, but the point is that just about anything can happen.

Please don't give up just yet. The relationship may not be salvageable anymore, but there are other issues that can end well or badly depending on the choices you and she make now.

Good luck.

Hell Yeah!!! If there were no kids in the frame my advice would be:

"Yup - well ya gave it a good 5 years, move on now fellah, plenty more fish in the sea".

If there were no kids involved I think it would be over as well...

Fair point - karma to you - the thing is I've read a little book called "The games people play" - highly recommend it to you - in it psychologists outline certain scenarios - our man DMW is playing the one called "I've got you now motherfucker" - he's going into the counsellor and appearing all reasonable and stuff , willing to accept his share of the blame - and surprise surprise , she's giving it to him!

@ DMW

BUCH - A - FUCKING - REST and I do mean fucking , 4 weeks , you won't even know yourself when you get back. Desperate times...

so would I. If the kids weren't involved, I'd be with Parnell 100% - it wouldn't matter who was right or wrong, I'd say just get out. But children change...pretty much everything, actually.

edit: and at that age, you do not leave a kid for 4 weeks. Not sound, not at all.

@Parnell

I don't think you're being very helpful here, just telling the guy to pack it all in. There is a child involved here. The man has responsibilities.

@ STB
Well my karma has fallen out me arse this am so Im sure you're not alone ... but if you read what I said before I outlined several decent strategies which all allow our man DMW a chance at recovering himself , which is the first step towards recovering anything like his family. Forgive me if I'm the type to beat the shit out of someone who kicks a dog when he's down but that's just me. As I've said before , he's no use to junior mopin round like a dead fish.

BIG EDIT:
I notice not one person is able/tried to break apart my argument on what his girl is saying to the councillor is an excuse - rather than swim ye'll all go down with the ship.

Of course it complicates things that children are involved but if the relationship's over, after fighting to save it, it really is best to accept it and walk away. Children feel the tension, despite bickering parents trying to keep it from them. You can still be a good parent if you're not together with your children's mother.
My parents should have split up...instead we grew up in a house full of arguments/aggression/weird atmospheres. Quite frankly it was awful.

But really hope it works out for you.

yeah, there's some of that in my family as well, and sometimes it's better for people not to be together. But you have to try harder when there's kids involved, and if you do end the relationship, you don't just walk away: you arrange custody and visitation and support and how you are going to be parents together even though you're not together. Counseling helps with all that, because a third person forces you to look at how to make the situation work for everyone, not how to score points against the other and "win".

And I don't think the relationship's unsalvageable yet. The presence of the other guy will change the way she thinks about things - it shouldn't, but it does - but the story isn't over yet.

@Parnell

It might be an excuse and it may also be the truth. Maybe she couldn't tell him what she wanted from the relationship and found it easier to look for it somewhere else, (not implying anything here DMW) I often find it extremly hard to tell people I'm close to things that may be painful for them.

People are complicated enough and if you have two people in a strained relationship then it's like solving a grease covered rubiks cube in complete darkness while wearing welders gloves. (yes I have strange hobbies)

@parnell

you cannot understand what women feel like not being one yourself, sorry. Therefore it is not fair of you to state that she is just making excuses by saying that she felt neglected. Many women in longterm-relationships feel neglected after a while. (I know what I'm talking about)
@DMW
Follow the advise of your councelor. Give her space for a while. Remain good friends with her, but go out and have a good time yourself. If you lighten up she might lighten up. If things look good you can always start courting her again.. but she will only come back to you if she's fully convinced that you will not go back to neglecting her again the moment you two get together again. Because, sorry, that's what many men do. You did the right thing, you gave it all, you tried it all, the result is in some way positive - now go out and have yourself a relaxing time again!

So, anyone going to Molly Malones's tonight for drinks?

DMW, nah thanks, somebody's already selling tickets to see you falling off the back of Johnny_English's motorbike.

Doctor! Come back! There's a faint pulse, I swear it!!!

It sounds like the counseling went well, it got her thinking, it got you thinking, just take some time and digest and let her digest too.

Nobody here knows your situation as well as you do, just go with your gut and try to keep yourself in good spirits in the meantime. I think Johnny English is right, even if it doesn't work out in the end, at least you will know you did your best. But I definitely don't think it's over.

I agree that since children are involved, you can't just drop everything and start over. I think she must know that deep down as well. I hope the counseling helps you both to find a good solution to this mess.

Good luck!