Trying to save a relationship

Our original plan together had been to move back to Ireland at some stage, but if that isn't going to happen and I will be paying support regardless then I intend to give my children the best deal possible.
I want to save the relationship because I believe that is the best thing for the kids, and if it means I take a bit of a beating and swallow some pride then so be it. I can recover again hopefully and time heals lots of wounds.
I won't allow myself to be completely walked all over though and she knows that.

@ I admire the aspect of doing what is the best for your children, but don't take a beating. A child is not better off with a Mother who runs around. You should give firm guidlines of what you consider as acceptable behaviour, concerning other men. Jealousy is one thing and is your problem, but if she has already told you that she wants to be with someone else, then you will not do your child any favours by playing the cuckhold

Lets also not forget Buddha himself started off by leaving his wife and young son to become one of the greatest and most influential thinkers in the world.

Yeah but what ever happened to Buddha's son? You don't hear much of him nowaday's, he may have been even greater!

Somehow I don't think I could become the next Buddha...

Buy her some GPS pants just to make sure.

Before you even consider taking off, do talk to a lawyer about custody. I don't believe any actual lawyers (in German law, which is relevant) have posted on the issue. Fathers can indeed get custody, no matter if they were married to the mothers or not. Taking off will not make a good impression in custody court. Sticking it out will. No experience here, but I believe that raising a kid takes lots of sticking it out too, and if you demonstrate that you leave when the going gets tough, then the courts will be unlikely to side with you.

If it even comes to that.

And so many people have said that "counseling doesn't save relationships " -- that's not what counseling is for. Counseling is for saving people, whether together or apart, and can help you both make the decision on how it's gonna be. If you'd both be better off apart, then counseling shouldn't "save the relationship" -- but it may make you both able to deal with each other like human beings for the next oh 70 years that your children will tie you together. There I do speak from experience: my parents divorced when I was 7 and had they not gotten counseling, I'm sure the situation would have been much more acrimonious than it already was -- and you really will have to deal with each other. Look at this for the long term.

Well said Gen -
I mentioned counseling to DMW for himself to help him deal with the range of emotions that I am sure he is feeling right now. A counselor is not going to tell him what to do to get his wife back.

So, DMW, go to counseling for yourself, and then go together too. Running away doesn't solve anything - just ask that Runaway Bride from Atlanta.

I'd like to see some stats to back that up ... take the well known case of Paula Yates ... boning/cheating on her husband (Bob Geldof) on live TV (actually it was his TV show) no less with a suicidal junkie pop star eventually getting hooked herself. Didnt get to see kids until she topped herself. Unless she is willing to give up the kids he's entirely in her pocket. Fuck that.

German law here in Germany, parnell. My lawyer's busy at the moment but maybe another German lawyer will look... oh wait a minute, we don't have any! (afaik, cmiiw)

That's right, Gen. Counselling won't magicaly fix it and get you two back together. It helps to put things in a responsible, adult viewpoint and it helps to eliminate the stupidity and points a finger at the selfishness. Once all the cards are on the table you can make your choices from what's left.

My advice to DMW is to be a man. Figure out who you are and stick to it. Don't grovel when she makes a choice to go to the other guy. Be kind and open to the fact that she 'needs' something else, even though you might 'know' that it is just in her mind. Be a steadfast person. Don't change like the wind. When the relationship with the massage therapist falls apart and she still has to deal with you because of the kids, she will see your love for them and see that you are the ever faithful rock that you need to be for your kids sake.

After that all happens, then make the choice if you want to let her back into your life. You might be a bigger man then. You might be the rock by the ocean that she crashes against, but don't let that weaken yourself. You may even have moved on (hopefully not for the kids' sake) but if you do, then that is just life and everyone has to deal with it.

You can't fix it all at once and maybe you can't fix it at all but maybe you can help her save face by being there for her no matter what her choices are. She might see that 'hey, this is a good guy and I really do need him.'

running away is not the solution. if your prepared to swallow your pride you must stay here and take the shit thats coming your way. show your son how strong you are and that you are there for him. this is going to be so painful it'll hurt more than having a tooth pulled out slowly. as yeti sadi, you can not tell a child why you are never coming back, so dont put that wieght on them. be kind to yourself aswell, we all get involved in things which dont work out, but what you have work out is the relationship to your kids, in five years time you'll be taking them away for the weekends and they'll be loving it being just with you alone, believe me my son loves being alone with me, so why shoudn't yours be any different? running away will put your reputation in a bad light IF things get a bit dodgy about access etc. and any way you'll be running away from the very thing you want to run to, which isnt realy on. your gf has the cards very much in her hands, you are going to have to accept second fiddle a little bit on this. just be the worlds best second fiddler and chin up. who knows what lies ahead, what great holidays you and the kids will have together, what wonders are there for you all.

I still think that it's just a temporary infactuation of DMW's girlfriend and that he should therefore fight to keep her. They have been together for a long time and a happy couple sharing children. Shit happens. She is confused currently, maybe due to her hormones - whatever - but I think it's just a typical situation where two people have been together for very long and suddenly a situation opens up that seems to be a lot more rewarding than the everyday routine that life had become. Therefore he should rather make her see in some way that this therapist guy is just a smoother that has this gig going with all his patients (most likely). Who will dump her like a hot potato the first time junior's nappy needs changing.

@ MB , gideon & profundo

That all makes him the victim , he's not done anything wrong , why should he have to suffer ?

DMW I can guarentee you that you being there as a backup will only allow her to respect you less and promote her behaviour. I truly feel sorry for your situation and think you should not take this kicking for all your sakes.

Gee thanks Gen. Never said that I was one either but it is mentioned Trying to save a relationship where legal advice can be had. Which is a bit more constructive, eh?

mmm, said the same thing myself.

@ parnell. is see what your saying but its not about victims and finger pointing. its about that wonderful box of diamonds know as his kids. if his anything like me, he'd take a bullet for 'em, so with that in perspective. show the strngth of character and purpose, stand proud and say i have been done wrong but i will not do wrong to my kids, they have not chosen us as parents, and i should respect their priority over me in this situation.

Thanks for all the advice, support and encouragement. Every bit has given me something to think about, regardless of whether I agree with it or not. It helps to have so many other views on this and they all touch on different emotions and feeling that I have.
I don't know if there is a right or wrong thing to do but I will try to be sensible.

We will try a counseling session hopefully next week and in the meantime I will try to avoid any confrontations that may worsen the situation.

@ Gideon
So you attend massage parlours regularly do you ?

Whether or not DMW likes it she can take his kids from him and there's very very little he can do about it (see Katrina's post) ... this boy is going straight to hell right now and as far as I can see he ought to be in a position of strength not weakness to sit at this particular negotiating table. Chances are if he exits stage left Ringo will realise fully what a shitstorm he has been helping to brew... and make like the wind. Once that's done then DMW has a shot... forgive me if I seem hard but I've seen how people behave (cheating spouses) in these circumstances and sympathy for their partners/children does not rank highly.

EDIT: I do think counselling is a good idea ... but if the cake fucking stinks and you know it's gonna give you the runs I suggest you don't eat it. You DO have a choice.

@ parnell. lets agree to differ on this. all i can say there is a point when a man has to stop running and take a stand. yep he may lose contact to the kids. but running away will lose him contact. shit it aint my fight and its not my own personal hell, but with a little faith, and kindness to himself and others DMW will get through this and on with his life with his kids.

If the split happens and he buggers off, he'll look as bad as a cheating spouse (i.e. not reliable).
Try the counselling but if it is broke, it is broke and you will know.
At least you know that you have tried and that is a comfort, this is not the same as crucifying yourself.
You work out your boundaries and what you are prepared to accept and what you want and need.
If you feel the price is too high at some point, you can always stop and say "I tried, this isn't working, I want to stop before I hate you".
But keep the door open. Not to the romantic relationship should it come to it, but to your family.
You can stop being a husband but you can't stop being a dad.
Whatever happens, concentrate on making the best enviroment you can for your kids.
If you do split, this may well mean feeling like utter crap seeing some other man in your place. But he won't ever be your kids's dad.

@ Gideon
Fare enuff m8 ... I'm all for takin stands - I've over 60 stitches collected on various parts of my head from takin them ... but I took them in games which weren't rigged (to my knowledge) - I wouldnt play in any other kind.

EDIT: Nice post Katrina ... the thing is DMW you did the best you could ... she let you both down , lotta women out there wouldnt. Take heart from that.

Theres two types of people though, sure the quitter type, sometimes they have trouble realising when to stop running and try and work something out.

More often though you get the staunch "im not a quitter" types, that flog horses to death, and need to learn how to give up and move on.

the stakes are so high in this game, but remember this...

They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another's throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don't have any kids yourself.

from larkin, and he was a hull boy too!

DMW,

Another benefit of going to a therapist is you may get more honest with one another. There are aspects to this situation which are hard to comprehend, not least the question of her seeing someone else, how far ? how long etc.?

I doubt if the other guy is as passionate about her as she may be about him. I agree with MB here, this could be a very physical thing and often these things burn out as rapidly as they develop.

Yes, it's true, some women do say they have more interest in sex when carrying a girl than when carrying a boy, I did.

Optimism aside, you may not really know where you are in all this until after the baby is born. As far as I can see you are doing everything you can.

This rings a loud bell with me. We nearly split when my eldest was about 15 months old (around 8 years ago)...she wanted the split then more than me. I am not the most doting father in the world but when they say they are thinking of checking out with your kid it stabs like a knife.

If it had just been a regular relationship then no big deal...we can all recover from those, but when kids are involved the pain and decision is 10 times greater.

We agreed to go to see a counsellor, purely on the basis that when we both looked back in the future...we could at least feel that we had covered every option. And this is the reasoning you need to use with her.

I have had the shit hit the fan a few times in life, but as long as you feel that you always tried to make the best possible decision at the time, and covered all the options, you can live happier in future whatever happens.

Personally I thought she was being largely irrational at the time like yourself (delayed post-natal depression if you like). At the councilling it went kinda embarassingly my way. Questions from the councillor like:

"Have you had any family illness or problems recently?" and my answer was "Yeah. My alcoholic drug addicted mother dropped dead 6 months ago", and then they said "Do you have any work related stress?" and my answer was "Yeah. I'm the boss, my business employs 95 staff but we are losing money and going bust".

And my wife's concern was that I was "emotionally withdrawn" - yeah right!

Anyway - councilling worked - she saw the light I feel - and we are still happily together!!

Spot on. I was offered counselling but I rejected it because of anger, pride and a host of other stupid reasons. When I look back now, I always wonder what if? and maybe that special person could still be in my life. C'est la vie

Good luck mate!

And of course...in this case she owes it to the nipper and the unborn to try every possible option to make things work. There are 4 people's future lives involved in the result of this one. Good Luck.

We have our first counseling session next Monday. Just confirmed the appointment.
How do these work? Will we just both state our cases and have the counsellor make some recommendations?

5

And why precisely should he give a shit about Mr Masseur Guy (because Mr MG obviously doesn't give a hoot about him)?
I know you're being pedantic again B_R, but this is ridiculous.

oh I completely agree that that dickhead Mr MG isn't owed anything by anyone (apart from maybe a good kicking!)

Ringo doesnt care about anyone but himself but then again he has no obligations/commitments to anyone else (including two children) ... which puts him alot further up the chain than Mrs. DMW. Guy's scum but she's a lot worse.

I think it's a bit harsh to call her scum, I'm sure she's not deliberately trying to hurt DMW or their son, she's probably in quite a bit of turmoil herself with the whole situation.

Uhhh ... she's pregnant with the guy's kid and she's messin round with her massage therapist ... no you're right she's a sweetheart ... let's imagine your Mum is pregnant and your Dad starts seeing his secretary at the same time ... what would you call him ? confused ? Take off the rose tinted glasses.

EDIT: I didnt call her scum ... I called him scum ... I called her worse ... for the reason i outlined above ... he doesnt owe anyone anything. He's just a callous POS and there's no shortage of them sadly.

Like I said, I don't think she is actually messing around with him in a physical sense, but he is giving her undue attention which she obviously enjoys.

Sorry to hear about all the problems. I don't know you as I am fairly new to tt.

To me it sounds like her hormones may have a lot to do with this. 3 months ago, she wants another baby and everything is alright, and now all of a sudden she is pregnant and wants out

I am currently 3 months pregnant myself with my second child, and my emotions are all over the place. My daughter has now says "watch out mom is having a crazy moment" , poor child

Example: A week ago I was ready to leave my husband and hop on a plane back to the states for a stromboli sandwich I have been craving!

Anyway, I hope the counseling helps and maybe her hormones will level out some where she can think more clearly.

I missed that he was her therapist. But if he is that is extremely unethical. Therapist should never get emotionally involved with patients. In the US they can loose their license for it.

I disagree with parnell. She's not a bad person. Her hormones are just going crazy because she's pregnant. Many women start to have feelings for their therapists. He should however be encouraging her to stay till she has the child and see how she feels and to think about her kids and not just herself.

Therapist!!! WTF!! I thought it was a basic principle in therapy that the therapist should not be emotionally involved with the the client.

Maybe you're right and I am wearing rose tinted glasses, parnell. But I tend to believe that most people don't generally go into situations with the intention of doing other people harm. Everyone's trying to do what's best for themselves, and sometimes it's hard to see clearly what's best.
The situation sucks, to be sure, and DMW is surely getting the short end of the stick in all of this. I'd even go as far as to say that what his GF is doing is scummy behavior, but to call her scum is still too harsh. Just my opinion.

@ Winegirl ... you ever meet any women bodybuilders ... they take testosterone for it's muscle building properties and are by far the most oversexed (yipee!) chics I've ever met ... that's what it's like to be a guy 24/7 ... which makes it just a lame ass excuse.

EDIT
@ Red - Maybe she's not doing it with the deliberate intention of hurting her partner , the father of her children , her lover or her as yet unborn - maybe most mass murderers (deliberately exaggerated to demonstrate logic) don't enjoy the pain their victims endure I dunno but she's sure as fuck callous.

That's why I was considering confronting him. Once things start going beyond a strictly professional level it should be on the onus of the therapist to break contact.

trouble is if he hasn't actually done anything 'physical' then I'm not sure where the official boundary lies. I mean there's probably a big difference between some flirting and him actively trying to get together with her and make statements that he wants to be with her etc. Thats why I asked earlier if he actually wants to get involved with your missus or if it is more something she is concocting in her head based on some flirting.
I think the onus is also on her to break contact if she feels the situation is wrong. Unfortunately she doesn't seem to at the moment.
I'm not altogether against your idea of confronting him though - depends on how much you know about what has 'happened'.
Horrible situation though I know (from personal experience).

#129

DMW,

A counsellor (which is what I meant by the term therapist in my previous post)should enable you to talk to each other in a productive way. You will probably both be asked to describe the problem and then the counsellor will ask questions. Some of the questions may be difficult but if you answer them honestly you will gain a much deeper understanding of the situation. It's worth doing it because there is a lot at stake for all of you. Eventually you will have to come to terms with a separation or find a way to forgive your girlfriend and stay together as a family.

yeah, I'm not sure btr. But if he has any sense of professional duty, should he be discouraging anything other "working" relationship?

I'm not sure a 'massage therapist' has an ethical code in the way a doctor or teacher does.

Just a point about her being scum or not. No matter how hard it is to understand or accept, she may want to be with someone else. This does not make someone evil, it only shows that her/his interests lie more in what they want. It is sad when that person chooses to live for what they want when there are children involved, and forget what may be the best for them. But just keep in mind that she is a person who has a right to change her mind and you should treat her as nice as you can, even though your heart may be breaking..I know this sounds easier than it is, but just try to be civil and kind through everything, you will respect yourself all the more no matter what occurs later on.

@ brokenm

Evil ... nope ... didnt say that ... just explained how logically she's worse than Ringo and personally I think extremely callous

So is he a massage therapist or an physicologist therapist???

I agree that she is more callous than Ringo, because he has no responsibility to the children. She is selfish, but people can change and grow, after seeing what results their actions can have.

@ Brokenm
I'm just givin you karma for callin him Ringo ... hilarious

@ DMW
Care to give a little more relationship background on your missus ... we got a pattern here or what ?