Telephone cold callers, how best to stop them

This seems to be happening more and more - the phone rings and the number is either suppressed or is obviously faked. I answer it and some tosser goes off about something I don't want so I put him on speaker and carry on doing what I was doing to see how long he talks to himself. Now my luck seems to be in as I'm getting more and more 'you've won a prize' automated calls where I should enter my birth date or something similar to 'claim my prize'.

The human ones at least offer the chance to annoy the git on the other end, these computer ones are just irritating. I've heard from German friends it's illegal for companies to call me without me registering. I'd like to get the sods locked up but it'd be enough just to get the irritation to stop.

Any ideas?
PP

can honestly say, since I moved to Germany, it's never happened to me...(none of your examples...)

...and the funny thing is, I stayed home 75% of the day for several months during the winter...so you'd think I would have had a few...but no.

(and I answer the phone every time, no matter what...never look...just answer)

I ususally screen my calls. I typically do not answer any supressed calls, unknown caller type things. If someone doesn't want me to know who they are, they must not have anything to say that I want to hear.

Cold-calling is illegal as hell here. While it's annoying, stay on the line and do whatever you have to do to get them to send you something. the best way is to use your worst German and accent and say something like "Ick sprecken nicht gut genug deutch zu machen dass an der telefon. Konnen du bitte schicken mehr info zu mich?"

They want the sale, they'll send shit, you have them dead to rights AND you have their legit contact info. If it's being done outside the country on behalf of a German firm (more common nowadays), you'll still be able to trace back to the source. Play the game and nail the bastards.

The schmuck on te phone? He's nothing. Jst an otherwise unemployed person taking any available job to make a couple eurobucks. Annoyig him doesn't help either one of you. Your job is to find out where they got your number and who's behind the cold-calling.

Again, it is ILLEGAL here.

woof.

I concur with BadDoggie. Unsolicited phone calls are completely illegal here. As he said, let them send you whatever they want to and then you can go back and get them in a heap of shit.

I enjoy unsolicited calls. In fact I encourage them by completing every questionnaire or survey going. Whenever I get a call, I always tell them I am happy to talk, but they must realise that my time costs money and that I charge €175 + MwSt for every hour or part for that time. In order to continue I need their name, address and a reference number for the invoice. In almost every case they refuse (sounding shocked) and the call comes swiftly to a close. In two cases in the last year they gave me the information (in one case after consulting a higher authority). One of these paid the bill I subseqently sent, the other refused. I didn't persue it...

YL6

PS there seems to be a curious recent increase in calls from call centres in UK or Ireland, often with local natives whose German is excellent, but obvious. Life gets so much easier when you tell them they can speak English. Then the fun really begins...

Thanks guys, interesting to hear this really is illegal. I'm still not certain about entering anything into these computerised systems based on the logic I use for deflecting spam - silence is the best defence. The frequency of these calls is not high enough to warrant changing my number and getting it removed from the phone book but some computer phoned me at 09:30 on Saturday which I was none too impressed with.

PP

even still, nothing is simpler than 'sorry, not interested, have a nice day'.

Really?
They paid the 175€ + MwSt??
I'll try that next time I get a such a call

I have often been called in this way and at the beginning I talked but only if I was in the mood. Once a guy chatted me up, wanted to know my starsign and who I was living with, etc. He was selling 'Lose' (lotto).
It IS completely wrong and luckily illegal. Now I don't wait till they've finished their introductory sentence and just say "Verzeihung, keine Zeit!" and PUT THE PHONE DOWN. Don't wait for a response, you've got to be determined.

Filter...

[img]http://www.bratsatv.org/milliwatt/slagoon.gif[/img]

When they phone me at home I say that I'm busy at the moment but if they give me their home number I'll call them back... when they are at home relaxing

I just love that idea. Thanks for sharin that. Unfortunately i never get any calls like that but I´ll make a mental note in case.

The telemarketers from O2 are driving me crazy. I don't currently have a contract with O2, but I do have a pay-as-you-go O2 card. Recently I have been getting as many as two to three calls a day on my mobile from O2 people apparently trying to sell me shit. I keep telling them I'm not interested, but they keep right on ringing me. I've just started hanging up on them. Does anyone know how I can get them to stop for good? Since I'm technically an O2 customer, is what they're doing legal?

don´t ... it´s the best method to make all future calls legal

You almost certainly ticked a box on your original contract saying you didn't mind them contacting you for "marketing purposes". You can retract that permission at any time by simply writing to them.

I never signed a contract with O2. Which, presumably, is what they're trying to get me to do. But I'm pretty sure I never gave them permission to contact me.

are you sure you didnt sign a contract? How did you activate your number? I also have prepaid with O2, and I have a copy f a form I signed in the shop where I bought it - called 02 LOOP Registrierung. All the bottom bit of that form (which is the bit about them contacting me for blahblah and blahblah and blahblah) is - very nicely by the shop assistant without my asking - crossed out. It also says that you can "jederzeit widerrufen". I'm just assuming that that section was not crossed out on your registration form.

And they never call me.

Granted, it was two years ago now that I got my card, but I genuinely don't remember signing anything. I went into the shop, showed them my passport, the dude typed some stuff into the computer and that was it. I'll dig back through my paperwork, but I don't recall there being a form.

I'm also pretty sure there was a form to sign for the pre-paid cards, but that was this year so maybe it's changed since 2 yrs ago. Can't hurt to write them a quick letter though.

Sehr geehrte Damen und Herren,

hiermit weise ich mein Erlaubnis zurück, mich aus Marketingszwecken telefonisch zu erreichen.

MfG
The One With the Red Hair

(or something)

Just thought I would add a warning to a scam going around right now. A computerized call is made, and in very fast German they inform you that if you want more info about whatever it is they are selling, then just say "JA" and you will be forwarded to another line which costs X cents per minute. If there is a "JA" sound anywhere in your answering machine message greeting, then guess what? It is taken as acceptance and for however long your answering machine keeps the line open, you get charged. Surprise on your next phone bill.

I haven't experience this one myself, but it was reported on a German TV consumer show.

I will indeed write a letter, that seems the best option. Thanks for providing the handy template

The trouble with that is that from some countries or phone installations the number does not come across. The caller cannot change it.

Tja, I got a call from allegedly Citibank - no number on display - who asked for my birthdate for verification. Not falling for that trick! She could be anyone claiming to work for Citibank, and especially in Germany when the PIN/password for anything is first your birthdate. (Security, my foot!!) Told her I don't know who she is. She said she only wanted to ask about their service quality, if I don't want to participate. No thank you.

From BT website:


http://bt.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/bt.cfg/php/...mp;p_faqid=9084

Total and complete rubbish. Technically here is no-way you can be diverted to premium charging service from an incoming call and if there was then such (ab)use would be jumped on by the regulators in minutes if not seconds.

For those of you who can read German: taken from http://www.pfiffige-senioren.de/handy-0900.htm

Es kommt noch schlimmer: sog R-Gespräche.
Bei R-Gesprächen (reverse charging) übernimmt der Angerufene die Kosten des Gesprächs. Eine gute Sache, wenn man selbst die Kosten nicht übernehmen kann oder will.

Der Ablauf geht so:
Der Anrufer ruft eine kostenlose Rufnummer (0800) an, nennt seinen Namen und wählt dann die Rufnummer des Anschlusses, mit dem er verbunden werden möchte. Beim Angerufenen wird nach dem Abheben ein Text in etwa wie der folgende von einer Computerstimme gesprochen: "Guten Tag, hier ist die Firma "R-Gespräche". Wollen Sie ein Gespräch von [hier wird der Anrufername dann genannt] entgegennehmen? Außerdem wird der Gesprächspreis pro Minute genannt. Wenn Sie die Gesprächskosten übernehmen wollen, so drücken Sie bitte auf Ihrem Telefon die Tasten 1 und 2 oder sagen Sie "Ja". [Kurze Pause] Falls man nicht zustimmt, wird das Gespräch automatisch beendet. Die Ansage verursacht dem Angerufenen noch keine Kosten.

Leider gibt es unseriöse Anbieter, die den kostenpflichtigen Rückruf über eine 0900er Nummer abwickeln. Telefonsex-Angebote, Kontaktanzeigen, aber auch andere Anbieter verfahren oft so.
Z.B steht in der Zeitungsanzeige eine kostenlose 0800er Nummer. Sie rufen an, und werden gefragt, ob zurückgerufen werden kann.

Wenn Sie so einen Anruf mal bekommen sollten, legen Sie sofort auf. Es kann aber auch sein, dass ein Rückruf kommt und sie gar nicht weiter gefragt werden. Dann wird es teuer. Dazu reicht es schon, wenn der Anrufbeantworter anspringt und auf der Ansage das Wort "Ja" enthalten ist.

Auf Ihrer Telefonrechnung erscheint dann ein horrender Betrag mit dem Vermerk TeleInternetservices. Sämtliche Rufnummersperrungen füür 0900 sind damit unmgangen, denn die greifen nur, wenn vom eigenen Apparat angerufen wird.

Die Anbieter der 0800er Nummern speichern keine kostenlosen Rufnummer wie 0800. Nur die Telefonnummer der Person, die mit den Kosten belastet wird, ist gespeichert. Der Kunde, der plötzlich eine hohe Rechnug bekommt, kann nie beweisen, dass er den kostenpflichtigen Dienst nicht angefordert hat.

D.h., ich kann eine 0800er Nummer anrufen und gebe eine wildfremde Nummer an, z.B. im Vereinsheim, die die Kosten tragen soll.
Unseriöse Unternehmen können praktisch sogar ohne Rückruf einfach anrufen und ahnungslose Kunden mit hohen Gebühren belasten.

In Deutschland bieten bisher die 01058-Telecom und die Deutsche Telekom AG R-Gespräche an. Diese können von jedem tonwahlfähigen Festnetztelefon, Handy oder aus Telefonzellen geführt werden.

Am 30.11.06 hat Bundestag in neues Telekommunikationsgesetz verabschiedet.
Durch die Änderung des Telekommunikationsgesetzes haben Endkunden die Möglichkeit, ihre Rufnummer für die Annahme von R-Gesprächen sperren zu lassen. Ab dem 1. September 2007 sind alle Anbieter verpflichtet, an dem Verfahren teilzunehmen. Die Sperrung sinnvoll sein, wenn der Anschlussinhaber nicht immer die Kontrolle über den Anschluss hat, z. B. in Hotels, am Arbeitsplatz oder wenn Kinder im Haushalt sind. Für die Sperrung beauftragt der Anschlussinhaber seinen Telekommunikationsdiensteanbieter, die Rufnummer auf die Sperrliste setzen zu lassen. Dieser Eintrag ist kostenlos. Die Sperrliste wird von der Bundesnetzagentur in Form einer Datenbank geführt.

Die Anbieter von Zugängen zum öffentlichen Telefonnetz melden der Bundesnetzagentur täglich alle bei ihnen eingegangenen Aufträge zur Sperrung oder Entsperrung einer Rufnummer. Gleichzeitig sind die Anbieter von R-Gesprächsdiensten verpflichtet, die Liste mit den Sperrdaten täglich abzurufen. Für die Löschung einer Rufnummer von der Sperrliste kann der Anbieter ein Entgelt verlangen.
Als in die Sperrliste zu übernehmende Rufnummern sind inländische Ortsnetznummern und Mobilfunknummern sowie sonstige inländische Rufnummern zu berücksichtigen. Ist eine Rufnummer in der Sperrliste eingetragen, gilt die Sperrung für alle Rufnummern, die mit den Ziffern der eingetragenen Rufnummer beginnen. D. h., die Sperrung kann nicht durch das Nachwählen von Ziffern umgangen werden. Weitere Einzelheiten finden Sie bei der Bundesnetzagentur

Very wise, it's an old trick, they're a cheeky bunch of feckers these cold callers, tricky indeed. Some tosser phoned me the other day and asked if Mrs. Angel was in, I said 'no'. She then asked me who I am, 'lebensgefaehrten' or some other, which I found pretty ***king cheeky - you phone me without any form of invitation then ask me who I am. Put her on speaker and left her to talk to herself for a bit. Bitch.

That often doesn't help - they just keep talking. Had it here in the UK & Germany.

In the UK you can register with the 'preferred telephone service'. This will reduce the number of these calls significantly.

In Germany, if it happens too often, note down the names of the companies and report them as it's illegal.

What about those Rückruf services.

'Do you wish to accept the charges'
'JA'

connection at 0190 rates. Or is that not allowed (EDIT - BIPA beat me to it)

The R-Gespräch" trick is an old one that rolled around in 2002/3. CT, the computer magazine first found it, but even then reckoned that less than 25% of people with answering machines answering the call were hit and then only those that began their outgoing message with a clear "Ja" - "JA! ... du hast der Michael erreicht - bitte hinterlassen Sie...". This meant that actual people being hit was pretty minimal. There was unfounded suspicion that messages simply containing "ja" were also being hit "Hallo heir is Ja-smine..." Even then most answering machines cut an incoming message after a finite time so the costs were not so horrendous. Court actions in 2003 and 2004 made it clear that such costs could also be disputed (including situation where a child may have inadvertently answered "ja" on an incoming call) and must be refunded without question. Since last year "ja" is no longer permitted as a response - only a telephone keypad tone, so this excludes most answering machines accepting the call. From later this year customers will be allowed to specifically exclude the reception of such calls in the first place

Hmm... so not exactly complete rubbish then. One other point to make - if you don't put yourself on the "avoid list", then after the new legislation kicks in on Sep 1, 2007 you CAN be liable for the charges, even if it was as a result of your child picking up the phone. Up to now there was no way to block your phone from the R-Gespräche service, which is why charges could be disputed. After Sep 1, you will be assumed to have accepted the charge unless you specifically block the service, according to legal advice in the article.

From http://www.computerbetrug.de/news/070322_01.php dated Mar 22, 2007

Verbraucher könnten mit der Regelung, die eigentlich zu ihrem Schutz geplant wurde, in eine schwierige Situation geraten. Schuld daran ist ein Urteil des Bundesgerichtshofs aus dem März 2006. Der BGH stellte damals fest, dass Anschlussinhaber die Kosten für R-Gespräche nicht bezahlen müssen, wenn ihre Kinder diese ohne Erlaubnis verursacht haben. Die Entscheidung fiel vor allem deshalb, weil es zum Zeitpunkt des entschiedenen Falls 2003 keine richtig wirksame Sperrmöglichkeit für R-Gespräche gab. „Allerdings mag sich die Sach- und Rechtslage ändern, wenn das (…) Gesetz zur Änderung telekommunikationsrechtlicher Vorschriften (…) in Kraft tritt“, erklärten die Richter wörtlich. Und spielten eben auf jene Sperrliste für R-Gespräche an, die nun kommen soll. Auf Deutsch: Wer sich ab 1. September nicht durch einen aktiven Eintrag in die Sperrliste schützt, könnte im Streitfall um R-Gesprächskosten möglicherweise der Dumme sein.

Every now and then I get a call from T-Com, now T-Home, about my DSL contract. Every now and then being roughly every 2 weeks. The first few times I listened, told them that I already had the tarif they were trying to sell me, pointed out that I sell their tarifs myself as a consultant and ended the call.

Not this week. A few days ago a friend was, in my opinion, conned into extending their contract from 12 months to 24 months. It went something like this "would you like to pay 5 EUR less per month, then we'll change your tarif to our new one". Apparently they were not told that they were signing up for 24 month minimum contract. Of course, they get lots of extras, like the theoretical 6MBit DSL line. Only at the moment they can't even get 2MBit!

So when I got the same sort of call this week, I decided it was time to listen to what the had to say, if only to answer questions from my own customers later.

The lady introduced herself as being from Deutsche Telekom / T-Home. She knew my name and phone number, but didn't know if I had an analogue or ISDN line. I asked her to prove that she was from DT by telling me my Kundennummer - she said her supervisor could access this if I wanted, but she'd have to go and find them. OK, I thought, let's skip that bit, because I'm not going to say "Ja" to anything anyway.

She wanted to sell me "Call&Surf Comfort Plus", with 16MBit DSL. I then spent the next 20 Minutes asking here questions about it. Here are the highlights that I would like to share with you:

Q: Will I really get a 16MBit line?
A: Yes, as soon as it is available.

Q: When will it be available? I only a 2MBit line?
A: If I sign you up for the tarif then we will work on making it available.

Q: Why don't you work now on making 6MBit available? (My line can only handle 3MBit at the moment)
A: Because we're going to prioritise on upgrading people who sign up for new tarifs.

Q: But that will extend my contract by another 2 years, right?
A: Yes.

Q: Why should I extend now, why can't I wait until 16MBit is available?
A: Because we won't know you want it unless you sign up, so we won't work on improving your line.

Q: Then I'll just wait until you improve the area generally. (All my neighbours 'suffer' with 3MBit as well)
A: But then you won't be first on the list, those that sign up after the 4th June will be.

Q: Will I need new hardware? (I have a _really_ old DSL modem)
A: The depends on what you have now. I can order a new router for you.

Q: I don't need a router, I only need a modem. I have a VPN router attached to that.
A: Well you can attach it to the new router.

Q: What is the new router like? I sell them myself.
A: It would be a Speedport W500V, with WLAN.

Q: And that works with my VPN router (I personally don't fancy setting up VPN-passthrough on a speedport)
A: Our engineer will come free of charge to you and set it up for you.

Q: And your engineers know how to configure VPNs do they? (I wouldn't be too sure...)
A: Yes, otherwise they wouldn't be qualified engineers.

Q: But then surely I'll have a WLAN network outside of my VPN. How will I access my network? How do I stop someone else accessing my network. (Great, now I need a VPN client for my own flat...)
A: Our engineer will configure that for you.

At this point she started to tell me about all the other fine things that the tarif includes...

I told her
- I don't want Norton Antivirus, because I already have a virus scanner
- I don't want T-Online Spam filter, because I don't use T-Online for E-Mail
- I don't need online security packages for a Webmail system that I don't use
- My hotspot usage is less than the price of the flat

At which point she changed tactics, and tried to sell my a 6MBit Call&Surf Comfort for the new 5 Euros less tarif for 24 months.

Q: Why should I extend now, I can do that when the first 12 months are up.
A. No, only if you sign up now can you get this price.

Q: Why can't I have the lower price without extending the contract?
A: Because that's the way it is.

Q: But when you upped DSL flat from 25EUR to 30EUR per month, you wrote to me saying "please accept, that we can only continue all contracts with identical conditions", ie. don't think you can Widerruf it and stay with DT. Why don't you do the same when you _lower_ the price by 5EUR?
A: That was a long time ago (yeah, right... 2003 is a really long time ago!)

Then came the final tactic: "so, can I put you down for it"
Me: "no, I'd like to think about it overnight"
Her: "when can I ring again"
Me: "I don't want you to ring again, I'll call the hotline if I want to extend my contract"

At which point she got very angry, told me she felt that she was just being used as a source of information and hung up. At this point we had been talking for 20 Minutes.

So I rang the DT hotline and asked them to stop ringing me. The nice agent looked up my details and said "you didn't give us permission to ring you when you signed up, so it can't have been one of our call centres" !!!

She then gave me valuable information. If a _real_ DT person rings you, then it's true that they can't see your Kundennummer, BUT they do know whether you have analogue or ISDN or DSL 2MBit or DSL 6MBit or whatever.

Obviously if someone claims again to be from DT and wants to see me something, then I'll have a few choice words for them before I put the phone down. The real DT lady confirmed to me that such calls would be illegal.

Oh, and being on the "Robinson List" helps as well. Not only do you get less calls, but most agents wish you a nice day, apologise and are gone really quickly when you tell them that you are on it. Every now and then one doesn't know about it, so I send them off to their supervisor to ask what it is

P.S.: Please remember that this is my everyday business and don't PM me with answers to the above technical questions!

Yeah, I get a lot of those calls. I usually don't answer when the caller-i.d. says unknown number. But when I do get a salesperson on the line, I just say immediately "Keine Interesse, danke" and hang up. I know that's probably rude, but I didn't ask them to call me.

I'm even ruder. I just put the phone down as soon as I know who they are and what they want.

It goes like this.

Answer the phone with hello, whos calling. never give your name or number.

If they ask is that Johnny Norfolk ask them who wants to know.

If they do not give a proper answer hang up.

Make then give YOU information not the other way round.

It works every time.

If you waste their time you will be soon off any calling list.

<she felt that she was just being used as a source of information and hung up. >

YCMIU