Irish tourist punched by a Kultfabrik doorstaff

This here TT website frequently sees people posting from the UK and Ireland. They are often groups of 10 to 20 lads who are coming over to Munich for a long weekend. Either for a stag night or a football match.

Example posts:

Recommended bars for 20 visiting Chelsea fans (posted 8.Apr.2005)

10 males require nightlife tips for first trip to Munich (posted 6.Mar.2005)

Stag party - 22 lads, Another stag party - 32 lads (posted 23.Feb & 26.Apr.2004)

One such visit ended badly this weekend. A group of about 10 Irish were over in Munich for a couple of days. They drank a few pints at one of the Irish pubs before heading to the Matador club in the Kultfabrik. A fairly typical schedule for a night out. As they left the Matador, however, one of the crowd, John C. aged 29, got into a fight with the doorstaff. He was so badly punched in the face that he had to be taken to hospital where he is now fighting for his life. The police are taking action against the doorman concerned.

Read it in the AbendZeitung. There's no online link to the article but you can read the police report.

That police link won't remain valid beyond a week so here's the copy:

Bad week for the irish overall. An irish student was stabbed and critically injuired the weekend before last too. Happened at a party in the student accommodation in Hessstr near the TU.

Here is the article from the same police website as the description of the Kultfabrik incident.

Bad news. I suppopse when Munich really takes off as the new Prague for Stag/Hen do's, its gonna be messy.

from what I heard on the radio this morning - it sounded like the doorman was already known to the police for previous 'form'. Would seem strange to allow such a guy as a doorman. Don't know who or what started the fight though although the cliam is 'vom Türsteher grundlos attackiert worden zu sein'

Poor bloke. Nonetheless, it's not really fair to say he was beaten up so badly that now he's fighting for his life - the police report says that after one punch he fell and unfortunately hit his head on concrete, i.e. there is also an element of accident here.

It's no accident when it has a causal link to the strike in the head.

thats not what oli meant though

My first thought when I saw the headline last night was, "What the fuck did the tourist do?".

Einer der drei Iren geriet unvermittelt mit dem 23-jährigen afghanischen Türsteher in Streit.
Uh-huh. Here's where it begins. Why did a problem develop? Was the patron trying to walk out with a souvenir? Did he get hot-headed as the doorman tried to recover the bar's property?

Der 29-jährige kam seinem Freund zu Hilfe.
Great, a two-on-one situation, but the doorman wasn't drunk. What does he do? Damned straight: remove the most imminent threat to himself first, namely, the guy right there about to swing (or already swinging). A punch to the face to get the nearest threat out of the way as you prepare to deal with any other threat until help arrives.

Is the doorman known for excessive use of force? Perhaps.

Are groups of young <insert nationality here> guys who have been drinking for six hours and who start to hassle the doorman known for excessive stupidity as well as a propensity for violence? Too right they are.

woof.

wow i was in BK (near GMs and Shamrock - that one) in the early hours of Sunday morning and there were loads of Irish guys in party mode.
edit: i mean saturday morning... just wondering if it was same group thats all.

Hope this guys alright, dreadful news indeed.

i know some guys that work on the door down there so i'll see if i hear anything from them.

Scary thing is, with the World Cup starting next year, there will be a lot of foreign people visiting Munich, as well as many other German cities, and well it does make you wonder how they will deal with a lot of drunken foreign people that are not able to speak German.

I don't remember any major problems during Euro 88

nor during the Oktoberfest. Munich can handle foreign crowds, I'm sure.

I dont mean anybody to take this the wrong way but i was a bystander on a very similar evening and a large group of IRISH fellas obviously with to much to drink were harrassing a chick out inthe kunstpark. If that wasnt enough when security of the 41 bar was allerted the group of fellas became very offensive towards German History... God knows why! but anyway the security clearly AND I MEAN CLEARLY stated that if something started it would end in blood.

Now a 6 foot guy stating this pretty much means he aint bullshitting!

but no the irish guy threw the first punch...

and that ended nastly!

And its been in three separate evenings first two - an Kiwi and an Enlgish dude where thrown out of a bar LITERALLY! because of harrasing a girl!

Well if you cant handle your alcohol dont go... Munich is pretty much one of many safest places in Europe...

And no matter what race you are... they treat you here when your pissed like every other place in the world!.

Ok, it's never good when bouncers and patrons start throwing haymakers left right and centre, but Munich is a big city, renowned for its drinking culture, and if it's going to be the new stag/hens location, then unfortunately these things are going to happen. It's not like they happen every single night, one person smacked to near death every day. Put yourself in the bouncers shoes sometimes, and you can kind of understand...

Not that I condone bouncers doing more than they should - if a pissed bloke is starting trouble with you, most bouncers are tall and strong enough for a gentle holding off, or push. King hits are a bit too much - for those who remember, thats how the Vic Cricket coach David Hookes died.

mightypies,

The guy wasn't "smacked near to death"; it was a two-hit fight. The doorman hit the Irish guy once and the Irish guy hit the ground once. It was the second hit that seems to have been the bigger problem but no details have been released. That's not intent.

Furthermore, while you can stop one drunk pretty easily even if he's looking for a fight, things get a lot hairier when the drunk's compadre decides to step in and the doorman has no back-up.

woof.

The article doesn't say whether the bouncer had back-up or not, nor does it say whether the irish guy went in windmilling or just pushing.
We don't know, we weren't there.

So you probably have a mix of people who can't handle their drink on one side and a bouncer who may not have been trained to block attacks without going straight to the offensive on the other.

Bottom line. Somebody's son is in hospital with a cracked skull.

This is great news! Why? Because it IS news. Cos every other city in the world its a daily occurance... In fact when I read the headline "29 year old irish male gets knocked out by a bouncer in the early hours of the weekend" I wonder what the punch line is, I wonder what they are making a parody of.

This really is a Toytown folks. My only question is why does the newspaper think the bouncers race is relevant?

Be a shame if the bouncer got in trouble though. How do the police / courts usually deal with bouncers? I mean they are in a position where physical scuffles can be more expected, so I wonder if the courts are more or less harsh on bouncers because of this.

I guess one reason why this is so rare is because munich really isnt known as a party city unless its late september / early october. I mean I had to laugh in amsterdam in the weekend (well its the same every time I go there), at all the packs of roaming poms deliberatly looking for fights. They must be morons, they get hell wasted, and try and pick fights with anything, police, drug dealers, pimps, each other.

Best bit was the final clash between various packs of poms on one side, and a graduating class of south american naval officers, that both sides had been building up to all day, by chanting and singing songs at each other. Wicked entertainment when combined with the mushrooms It was kinda like going back in time and observing the clash between the neanderthals and cro magnons or something.

if it was anything like the last time the poms got it on with south american matelots it must have been one sided.

@kza

Good post.

1. interesting analysis
2. pleasant (and relevant) illustratory aside

10/10 and a lollypop

Judging on the training the doorstaff has to have perhaps the Irish guy needed to be neutralized and the doorman was in the right. Perhaps not.



On the other hand, (@Kza) this IS big news for TT because I believe that TT posters or their direct friends represent a good percentage of the people that frequent these Irish speaking places on a regular basis. The "it could happen to me" factor is unusually high. Most TT'ers and their friends aren't looking for a fight and naturally would assume that the doorman must be in the wrong (because they wouldn't be in the wrong in such a situation, so it must be the other guy.)

I guess we will see when the facts all come out as to what started it and what happened and whose fault it was, etc.

/Sorry for the guy with his face flattened.
//Hope it's not me next time.

These guys had been drinking in GM's on Friday night. They were pissed but in no way abusive when they left.
The guy on the door is paid to prevent trouble, getting into a fight with pissed punters is IMHO a disgrace.
If this poor bloke dies I hope the charge is Murder and not self defense. They should throw away the key for this.
There is no excuse for this type of behaviour from Doormen, no matter how you dress it up.
According to the TZ the bouncer has a bit of form aswell, what was he doing on a door?

Bert

As an ex-bouncer myself you can't always avoid it - you expect the punters to respect both the club and you - if they can't do that then they shouldn't be there and it's your job to eject them . This often leads to aggro - apparently he was hanging onto property of the club. If you were there you know more than me , but from my experience I'd be doubtful.

Really sorry what has happened. One of the things that is supposed to be better about being here than "home" is the fact that there is so little trouble.

Should there be a regulated doorman scheme like a lot of places have?

I can see the need in nightclubs (but rather for crowd control than rejecting potential customers) but don't like bouncers on pubs at all. "Reach for the Stars" (insert S Club 7 singing here) by Gärtnerplatz had one that put me off, same applied to nearby "Lounge 54" which was an ex Bier-Stüberl FFS and Ksar's on the Müllerstr.

It says something quite sad about "us" in that it is the English speaking bars in Munich that have the most obvious bouncer presence.
I probably wouldn't go out on a massive English speaking crawl of the town as it seems destimed to end in disaster at some point in the night.

A regulated doorman scheme run by the council with certain standards and vetting might sort the "rotten apples" out of the barrell. BUT, aquaintances of mine in Scotland and (I think) it was Yorkshire have mentioned that it can cause problems. Because if you HAVE to have a licensed bouncer and the big security firms muscle in and work hand in hand with corrrupt councils / liscensing authorities.

I've woked the door loads of times and have been employing Door guys for 14 years and I know the door guys who fancy themselves are always the ones who "had no choice" the good ones always sort things out without anybody going to hospital.

Whats the best way to stop trouble? - Punch the first bloke in the face - I don't think so.
A disgrace.

Bert

not the same though. can't picking beat picking up the pieces and looking for trolley wheels around town the next day.

English fighting methods

http://koti.mbnet.fi/islander/Tommy/BritFight.wmv

Don't take that out of context. I referred to a single bouncer -- apparently without back-up -- who had to deal with three people who may or may not have had a propensity for fighting and who had been drinking for the past TEN hours, one of whom started causing him trouble and a second one preparing to join in to back up his buddy.

Two on one? I don't think so. The first rule is to protect yourself. If someone wants to fight and his buddy is coming over to back him up, the options are limited.

Of course, this is still only a thought experiment and some armchair quarterbacking since we only have partial stories from various biased sources. I tend to back the doorman first; havnig worked at enough bars and clubs I know what the 4:00 a.m. punters are like.

woof.

I have never read such utter tripe on a forum.

The guy is in hospital fighting for his life. What ever way you look at this it is not supposed to happen. Physical violence is never the answer.

The poor dude has my prayers anyway...

I think you are being a bit harsh 6783KGE, the poor guy is in a lot of peoples' thoughts right now I'm sure. But the discussion on here has (and needs to) go beyond:

Injured Irish Guy = Good
Munich Bouncer = Bad

People ought to ask themselves why some people don't go out much in the cess pits of Munich (like around Münchner Freiheit). Not becasue we don't want a fun lively night out but we just can't be arsed with the hassle.

I dunno about that 6783kge. This was a classic pack of young men out on a special occasion involving drinking. They went all the way to munich for it. Getting into arguments and fights is a standard feature of such events. Typically what happens is theres one amongst the group who is known as the fighter or the feisty one. (Theres also the ladies man, the sporty man, the guy who has too much to lose to misbehave etc etc etc) All have certain roles to play. The most treasured thing one can take from such an event are the stories, particularly with a macho or competitive component, that can be remembered and treasured as time goes on, evolving into the sacred legends of the group.

Basically everyone did what they were supposed to, and everyone got what they wanted. The feisty young scrapper got his hospital trip, the bouncer got to take out a rowdy annoying foreigner, and the rest of them got the seeds of a new legend.

I have a feeling, should these young irish lads have come all the way to munich for a special weekend focussed on drinking, and NO fight occured, it would have been a let down. It would have felt that something is missing.

Having said how it is, please dont interpret that as me saying thats how it should be. I dont condone any form of violence, and the packs I roam around with form their legends out of other activities.

@Kza

have to agree with you on this. unless anyone was there and knows what happened, your version of events is most likely spot on. i have been on enough similar trips to know the dynamics of a big group of lads out on the pish.

i hope the lad is ok, whoever caused the fight, no-one should be permenantly injured or worse as a result of an incident like this.

oh for god's sake - am amazed at what i read. Toytowners have pratteled on for 2 pages about something that none of us witnessed, nor did we know any of the people involved. I love that everyone just jumps on whatever stereotypes come handy (ie the bouncer was a psycho - the irish lads came looking for trouble)

We have no idea what really happened, we probably never will.

I think you'll find that accounts for probably about 90% of all threads on Toytown.

Em, without intending to get involved in the discussion...Kza,


...that's a fucking idiotic thing to say.

Not knowing what happened does not mean that we cannot discuss whether bouncers have to be better trained and regulated. If they were then maybe we wouldn't have had anything to discuss in this case.

have you been in the Miscellaneous section?

if we are only going to be allowed discuss stuff we personally witnessed, or people we personally know, the forum is going to be a bit sluggish. not only that but conversation as a whole will be thin on the ground. how can we discuss the Brad/Angelina/Jennifer situation? we don't know any of them and we will never know what is really happening? we will have to resort to star-stereotypes: the womaniser, the mad one, the cute but daft one...

politics and Iraq etc is off the menu then - perhaps thats a good thing though!

nah italy is the subject today

BTW how is the poor chap? Hope he's okay.

Indeed mindless conjecture and pontification about stuff we know nothing about sure beats work. Although, now I think about it, it does sound a little like work too...

Any night on the piss that ends with someone in hospital is a bad one, however the guys involved may have been.

PP

Thank you Mr Chamberlain. We all recall how effective appeasement can be.

A bouncer's job is to be violent when necessary. If it wasn't necessary, there wouldn't be bouncers. Go read Clublief and see what it's like. Bouncers aren't there looking for trouble -- they just want the night to be over, collect their pay and go home with as little bullshit as possible. Their job is to keep order and protect the rest of the people from a few assholes who inevitably turn up night after night.

Maybe my guess is wrong and the bouncer really did go looking for trouble, but it's extremely unlikely in and of itself, and moreso when you consider the group of guys had been drinking for -- and this is important -- ten straight hours. This last bit is not in dispute.

woof.

And that's a load of bollix an' all.

from what i read the bouncer had previous gbh on his police record. he was the wrong man for the job. fact. and will be up for some serious time if the lad dies.

...perhaps, but it doesn't show causation to anyone except those who believe the tabloid newspapers present all sides of a story rather than just sell as many copies as possible.

A flower child is not someone you hire to handle problems with drunken customers. We don't have any details on the previous GBH (and bloody few on this story, really); all we have is that at some time since his 18th birthday, he was done for the German equivalent of a GBH.

Did he pay his fine / do his time? Yep. Was he gainfully emplyed and acting as a normal member of society? More or less, though I'm sure some of his pay was off-book. Anything else? Nope. Ve know nussink.

This is all speculation. I've worked in some clubs and been to others and am used to seeing what goups of guys do, and I see Irish and British more likely to get violent, especially after a night of drinking. Or do you know the equivaent (not word-for-word translation) of "Are you lookin' at my pint?"

woof.

It may have been in self defence but why didn't he just call another bouncer over and then restrain the chap? Or call for the police? You will have to explain from your own experience. I do not believe violence was the only option. It rarely is, but some people they cannot see any other option for various reasons and resort to violence.

Was willst du, eh?
Was gaffst du an ?

Nennst du meine Halbe ne' Schwuchtel?

the guys a fist flying ausländer. believe me he can pleed bleeding heart untill the second coming of christ. the staatsanwalt are going to crucify him.

oi kuchst du mein bier an?

oder he check nicht mein bier, sonst kriegst du eine zentriert.

No it is not. Its his job to stop or better still prevent violence. If he is worth his salt he will never have to use violence.

This guy is a thug and I hope they throw away the key.

B

My only comment on this incident is to note how surprisingly easy it is to kill someone if you punch them in the face and they fall and hit their head on the concrete. The same happened to a well known cricketer in Melbourne recently - also from a bouncer.

Something interesting that I have often noticed, is that the newspapers and police reports quite readily report the national origin of people involved in such incidents. If all of the people involved are Germans, I don't seem to have noticed that they mention it. I don't seem to remember this being the practice in Australia, but my memory is pretty shocking these days. I would be interested in hearing if others have also noticed that the Germans are less coy about reporting people's national origins.

I've noticed that, absolutely.
I don't think they would be allowed to mention it in the UK, in fact.
If they were looking for the suspect and had to post a description, then obv. they could mention their origins. But not in a case like this.