Fined for calling the police racist - €2,400

Hi All,

I need some advice and help on my next step.

I shan't go into all the long and boring details but I live in Munich but work in London and fly every week. Anyhow, a month ago – I was once again asked about my passport. I was asked for more documentation upon which I produced my new UK driving licence which I had recently acquired for such situations. The police weren’t too happy that I spoke in German with them and didn't believe that my passport was in order. So, I was detained in a detention centre despite having panic attacks. In the end, I missed my flight and the whole process took a few hours. One test amounted to me having to speak on a phone to an English official whilst the police listened to my English. At the end of the process, I was left having missed my flight and ill from panic attacks.

I tried to make an official complaint where I stated that I thought the whole incident was racially motivated - and the police were racist in this situation. In the end, I had to go to hospital after suffering a serious attack and then found it I was being fined by the Police (this was on the day of the introduction of the new anti-discrimination laws!)

I've just received the answer from the StaatesAnwalt and they have fined me 2,400 Euros.

Naturally, I don’t believe I should pay this – so need to begin looking for a lawyer. I’d appreciate if anyhow has any contacts or advice they can give me.

Thanks

Stanford

What was their reason for fining you? that you tried to complain against them?

As UA asks: What is the exact wording of the offence the Police claim you have perpetrated in order to get the fine?

You can't insult a police man in germany (it seems) and me saying that the Police were racist in this situation means that they (in fact four policemen) have fined me for insulting them.

Oh shit! And of course there were only the four Policemen and you at the moment it happened... oder?

I have the letter here and it says mit den Worten: "Rassisten". Funnily enough I was talking about the police in generally and said Sie sind and the situation and didn't call any one policeman a rascist but that doesn't matter as Sie sind can be personal or general!!! Be careful with your german grammar when insulting a policeman!!!

There was too incidents - one the telephone tests. Then there were three - checking out my English.

And then later at the desks (where I tried to make the complaint) there were mainly two.

Maybe, luckily in my defence I had taken some of my tablets and was in a state of panic and drowsy - so I can use that as mitigating circumstances...

But in essence it's my word against the border police...

I may have found a way forwards stanford, but you will have to make sure that you are right. Any hole you leave will tear you apart.

My wife (who is Bavarian, and seemed to grasp straight away what you are being fined for), suggests that you bypass the legal route (because you probably don't have a leg to stand on) and proceed directly to the press.

The (German) newspapers love this kind of story. Research, and go to the right ones.

Got to go now - sun - biergarten - etc.

Sorry to hear about this, stanford.

Personally, I'd pay the fine and learn the lesson. One should always be respectful to the police, even if you feel they are in the wrong. Pick a fight with the law, and you will lose.

If you do go to the press, get some help with formulating your story. I'm struggling to understand your posts here.

Thanks Sin,

That was in my mind but wanted maybe to go down that route later. It was hilarious as it was the day they introduced the new anti-discrimination laws as well. If I go to the press straight away then I've used most probably my strongest weapon so would prefer to try another route first.

I'm not sure of the law here and that makes it difficult as in the UK such an offence wouldn't arise in this case - but 2,400 Euros is a lot of money.

I'd rather fight it on maybe two grounds 1. I was ill at the time and had taken some powerful tablets as a direct result of being locked up 2. Freedom of speech.

Thanks

Stanford

I think we are missing a lot of information here to make any judgements. The police/Staatsanwalt don't simply write a letter fining €2400. It's likely a long letter, or even a judgement with extensive grounds for the fine, if that is what it is. There will surely be an opportunity to appeal too. The clearly believe they have evidence to show you have done something serious. You presumably believe you have solid grounds to dispute that claim. This isn't a police state. You should get legal advice, however before you proceed. Toytown is not the place for that advice, but might be the place to seek such contact.

These guys are good all-round lawyers, although this is not their speciallity. Maybe they know someone who can help. Stefan Goetzl, although German, was born in Leeds (Yorkshire!) and speaks good English.

YL6

Thanks YorkshireLad6,

You are right, I just needed 1. to see if I could get any contacts and 2. to sound off a little as I'm a little pissed off to say the least.

I've been speaking to some of my german friends and have decided to push it further. In the letter*, I have a chance to dispute the fine and will find a Lawyer. My german friends who is a lawyer (unfortunately patent law) is looking for someone who specialises in such cases.

As what consistutes serious, it seems in German you are not allowed to insult public officials (police, traffic warden, government officials) and they have fined me under this law.

Thanks all for your wise words or otherwise,

And, I'll keep you informed - especially if I get my chance to a day in court!!

Regards

Stanford

** which is that't long really!!! It lists the name of the policemen (all four) and the reasons "mid den Worten: "Rassisten", um Ihre Misachtung auszudruecken" and the section of the german law that it falls under. And finally what course of actions are open to me.

I really hope that tongue was planted firmly in cheek for the above... One should most certainly not have respect for individuals or institutions who abuse their power. Locking up an innocent traveller for hours, subjecting him or her to interrogation and causing him to be hospitalized, then adding insult to injury by injuring him financially? Sounds like abuse to me.

That said, if you were as confused at the border as you are in your posts, it's no wonder they took you in.

Tim, that's only abuse of power when someone is innocent and who they claim to be. It's not abuse of power when they find illegal immigrants and terrorists this way. Although I'm sorry that Standford suffered a hard and perhaps in his case, out of line or unfair, experience, it hardly describes an abuse of power.

I hope it works out for you Stanford, but I wouldn't be surprised if you end up having to pay. You can't insult other drivers whilst driving here, it's unlikely the police will let you get away with the same towards them.

@showem, re-read my post. What would you do if you showed up at Pearson and they pulled that on you? Last time I flew into Toronto, I was asked why I was visiting Canada - that was AFTER I handed her my Cdn passport... "Why do you think I am visiting Canada? And for that matter, do I need a reason to???"

My point was that an innocent traveller should not be abused (fining him C$4,000 for questioning the way he was treated sounds like it fits the bill) by persons in authority, and that if the person is innocent, and abused, we should not have respect for those doing the abusing.

As far as one 'not being allowed to insult other drivers' when was the last time you drove in Germany? I drive here almost every day and not a dat goes by that I don't see some waved hand or finger (not always directed at me mind you ). German drivers, while mostly competent, are some of the most frustrated and aggressive people on the planet...

Tim, I agree that the way the authorities sometimes act is wrong. I didn't say they were right. Instead I said you should be respectful to them, in all circumstances.

And by respectful, I mean that you shouldn't yell and hurl abuse.

You can think to yourself that a policeman is an asshole. But you don't say that to his face.

If you want to challenge their authority, do so in a calm, collected, and polite manner.

And then, after the event is over, if you still feel you were mistreated then you can lodge a formal complaint.

It's called civilised behaviour, and it'll get you a long way.

Tim, I have been pulled aside at Pearson. And as nervous as it made me (nobody tells you why it's happening), I behaved politely and was let go after a few questions.

My point Tim, is that how the HELL do they know who the innocent traveller is if they don't question them? Do you expect them to be carrying a sign saying "Baddie, arrest me please"? They ask everyone why they are visiting a country, I don't see what the problem is in answering it. They don't need the whole story of that you are visiting your sick aunt or your transvestite married lover, a simple business or pleasure does the trick.

As for the waved fingers in Germany, I didn't say it didn't happen, I meant it isn't allowed - ie is a fineable offense.

Lads... I think we are all in agreement here.

Being polite at the border should be second nature to anyone in the western world, but that should work both ways. In the last few years certain authorities, while admittedly under a great deal of stress, have lost their ability to be polite and have subjected many innocent people to 'unnecessary' measures. Whether that is the fault of the individual or a systematic failure is a matter for another discussion. What it tells me is that the terrorists win a little battle every time one of us bystanders gets called on the carpet by a paranoid customs officer. Should they be paranoid? Yes. Should we be polite? Yes. If we are not, do they have the right to fine us thousands of dollars, or put us in jail, or beat us up? Sorry, I don't want to live there.

Auf jedenfalls, I hope this innocent TTer manages to get himself off without too much more stress. Good luck!

PS I knew that bitch at customs was going to rat me out over John, er, Jane... er John.

They absolutely do have the right to detain you and fine you if you don't play by the rules of the game.

They also have the right to do their job in peace. They should not be subjected to personal humiliation by the very people they are trying to serve.

So far as we can tell from Stanford's story so far, the police were polite. Stanford hasn't said anywhere that they weren't. According to his own story he was the only one who lost his temper. So, as far as I am concerned, he is the one who stands to lose in this case.

If he feels he was subjected to racial discrimination, then I feel sorry for him. I really do. Unfortunately, however, he made a mistake by not handling the situation in the proper manner. He hurled personal abuse instead of making a calm and collected formal complaint.

Guys,

Interesting that we've got into a debate about terrorist and catching them. I knew someone would go down that line. As always I'm suppose to grin and bear it - despite the fact that I've been stopped or accused by the police now 40 times in my life...and still haven't sold or smuggled any drugs.

So the question with these things were does one draw the line. I've been talking to other 'Black' professional friends today who also have to deal with this stuff pretty frequently (like if you buy a decent car - you get stopped more) and all I can say it's seems to us not to be proportionate to the propose threat of a black illegal immigrant or black criminals.

For example, when I lived in Barcelona I was stopped and harrased whilst just walking down the street about 15 times in less than year because I had the cheek to live in a posh area. But the police never went down to las Ramblas or to the farms outside Barcelona where 'real' illegal immigrants lived and worked. Whilst living in Italy, I was stopped on the suspicion that someone of my colour and discreption attempted to rob a super market...even though my sister and I were the only black people living in that small town of about 50,000 people...and so I could go on and on.

I'm politically right wing and appreciate the police have a job to do but also there something called civil liberties...so the questions is to what extent should my life be inconvience by the colour of my skin.

You guys have asummed I hurled abuse at them...I never said that - what I did do is make my my feeling strong known (without swearing) but making it clear that I believe it was racially motivated the whole incidence. And, that I hadn't had problems in Frakfurt Airport which of course the Bayerish police didn't like!!! It seems german police are sensitive to being called racisit.

Anyhow, most of my german friends are pretty shocked and embarassed that I'm facing a 2,400 Euro fine or 30 days in prison for calling the police racitst (which incidently is a matter of opinion that happens also also to be insult - so therefore should be judged in that light - but alas not in germany!!!).

A friend, anyhow, has found me a lawyer and we will be fighting into on mitigating circumstances as the Panic Attacks and vallium drugs have side effects and under german law if you kill someone whilst drunk it is consider less severly as if you were sober.

So wish me luck..and I shall continue to grin and bear the inconvenience that life bring for having black skin (there are some advantages of course but that would be another debate!)

Thanks

Clive

PS. I must say the most enlighted country on these issues in England...they seemed to realise that black people live, work and are born in Europe...unfortunately Europe remains a little way behind...

Wasn't me,

There weren't polite - and weren't concerned that I have illness...if you saw the smirk on the policeman face as I tried to explained about my illness...I wouldn't call that polite nor the stupid English language test...either.

I never swore at the police nor was abusive (the fine is for using the term Racist only) and tried to explained why such circumstance happen so frequently but every time the police maintain they are not acting being racially motivated. One of my blacks friends in Zurich and I said on the telephone that it's stupid if one can't say the word as maybe it's true...therefore it shold be subject to the test of whether it was appropriate accusation to make in the circumstances otherwise all Racist police have black cheque to be racist as I nor other people can make the accusation...that's my legal point.

Thanks

Regards

Stanford

PS. If you read the Basic Law and European convention on Human rights one of the basic laws is to be able to lawlfully go about your business free from the fear or actual of harrassment. Again, I ask what is the acceptable line to draw on this one as they look for the black terrorist, drug smugglers and illegal immigrants.

Person like me in a suit travelling to work every monday morning - a BA frequent flyer, maybe I should have stayed in Moss Side manchester selling drugs...since I get treated as though all those years of study don't count for jack sh*t...

Thanks for sharing further details. It sounds like maybe you do indeed have a good case. Good luck with it! And let us know how it goes!

Well... what can I say? You kind of did vote for this shit then. However, I'm not narrow minded enough to condemn all right wingers just yet.

Yes the Police have a job to do. Shame that there isn't an independent to go with every pair of police to make sure that they stick to the law as well. There are some good police, and some that should be behind bars.

Now I know that you are black (I kind of knew by the details anyway), this raises certain questions. The Bavarian Police are well know for their conservatism. Bavarian conservatism is well know for its stance on Ausländer. If you have good documentation, and then good legal representation, and you can handle being in court without flustering, then you may have a good chance. I would advise that you refrain from speaking any German. This will make things very difficult for the opposition (you cannot be easily called).

Pay the fine ONLY if, in your heart, you know that you are guilty. If you know that you are innocent, then fight like a tiger.

Wasn't me,

I'll keep you informed whether we plea bargain or whether we go to courts.
It's a little harsh especially the 30 days in prison if I don't pay.

But hopefully it will all work out.

I'm just found out good news that my Brother will be doing a new Jerry springer show in the UK. He will be playing the new 'steve' the stage bouncer (look out for him)...so some good news today...

Laters

Stanford

Sin,

I like to break some sterotypes...you should see my brother the one who is going to play the 'steve' role on the UK Jerry Springer...in the family we call him the black alf garnet as he's always compaling of foreigners!!! As for me I'm centre right so have a social conscience!!!

I use to live in Frankfurt which because of the Banks is very open minded...and was warned before coming to Munich that it is less so. But up until now it's only been this incident so I'm still hopefully...

Rightwingers come in all shapes and form...call me a cuddly rightwinger...

Stanford

news: I was speaking to an ex Colleague from the German Stock Exchange who is now a Lawyer...he had worked at the Staatsanwaltschaft and is also giving me some advise. He said that he\they fined some guy who beat his wife badly 1,000 Euros and another guy who drove drunk and did some other stuff less than 500 Euros. So there's hope for my 2,400 Euros yet to be reduced!!!

Stanford

I am soo lost on this whole thread... Lets see, I call a copper an asshole and I get fined for it, but I really am a right winger at heart so therefore don't "feel" for me or, wait, now we have " isms" and this is, wow. too much on a sunday night...

NancyDrew, I didn't call them arseholes I called the racist...not even racist pigs or bulls as the word is here but just your plain everyday racists!!!

Interesting that you plan to mitigate rather than deny...

I think he is being realistic and purposefully setting his sights low. He could still get off completely.

Just a side note: When Munich City Council was conducting a major social survey recently about one section of the non-German population they asked the police to take part. During the beginning of the study it appeared to be that there was a major problem with racism in the police. When Munich city council mentioned this problem to the police and offered to work together with the police to try and imrpve the situation, the police denied there was a problems and they refused to further co-operate with the study.

I can't believe you had to do a language test!! I assume you have a GB passport and if you were just randomly dragged in for a test (and I'm assuming you are non white so of course it is based on 'race')! Unfortunately I guess you can't prove that as such.

Why did they detain you by the way? When you said they believed the passport was ok?

sorry to read this. but it sounds like your doing the right thing. its very typical of german police to counter charge you very quickly, takes all the wind out of your sails, be careful with the staatsanwalt though. they can be real middle class mummies boys so there sense of reality is slightly lacking somewhat. make sure you have your medical history thrown at them. and good luck, sounds like they'll drop it when they realise your going up against them.

Stanford --

I have no advice, but I want to say that I am so sorry you suffered this ordeal. It's sickening. Let's see:

You are a foreigner
You speak some German
You have proper papers
You have proper residency
You are ill and on strong medication

The callous treatment by the police triggered your illness and symptoms. Is this the way they treat handicapped foreigners who happen to be black?

Seems like for your case, you should get your medical people on board, as well. Any local celebrities who happen to be minorities (have they had 'incidents' too?) might come to your defense.

Things like this occasionally happen in the States, but if this happened to you in the States, you would already be rich and famous -- you'd have powerful friends like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, and you could sue the police for many millions of $$$. The press would be all over it.

Again, just a note of sympathy here.

M.

It might also be worth making a formal complaint to the consulate.

If only to poke them that there is more to be done here than having a cocktail party on Liz Windsors birthday.

stanford

hard luck . . . you must be annoyed beyond belief. Here are the details of an intelligent sounding English lawyer in Munich who was actually the first to pass the Rechtsanwalt exams as well.

Give him a call for a chat to see if he can help/direct you. He may, of course, tell you to pay up and take it no further.

David Hole
Rechtsanwalt & Solicitor
Fachanwalt für Arbeitsrecht
Widenmayerstrasse 28 iv
80538 München
Tel +49 89 21 21 53 15 Fax +49 89 29 59 49
Internet www.englisches-recht.de or/oder www.germanlaw.co.uk

Sorry to hear about your problems stanford. I can't offer any help, but just be thankful, it could have turned out worse!


Justice for Sarah Thomas

The British police may indeed be less racist than in Germany, but nonetheless there have been numerous incidents there like the one above.

Hi all,

I'm back in rainy London - sitting in a Internet cafe waiting for foyles to open to buy some books on the German legal system...I got thru pass control today okay...the policewomen had a few problems identifying me as the sun was shining in her face and as the two police said who took my original statement said...it is difficult confirming black people's identity as their passport photos lookalike...Alas, I look forward to the day of finger and eye scans in international airports..!!!

My grammar and spelling can be a bit poor - a mixture of dyslexic and 80 words per minute typing... so the original message meant to read that they thought my pass was false...

As for my bro, I spoke to him last nite and he said he would have "lamped" them one...but he believes I'm too middle class now after all that civilising education and travelling...so alas the Jerry Springer option will have to wait. I could get a Jerry episode for my wedding or when my 3 brothers and sister and clan make a trip to Munich that will be hilarious to see (all with detention centres and fight scenes)...maybe I should warn them a few months before hand as they will sure have difficult recognising us on our passports...

I feeling a lot better after speaking to my hot shot Polish/German lawyer Kolko who knows a few tricks up his sleeve. He said it is best to represent myself in a subsequent court case with behind the scence coaching...so I all reved up for my potential day in court (I shall work on my criminal law vocab as well!!!)...pity they don't have a jury system here...

The post about them not recognising a problem...doesn't surprise me...too sensitive a subject.

I've already sent a letter of complaint and copied in the Consulate and had none commital reply. So, I will fire off another letter asking for details of what the check was and why it took to long 2 hours and what the hell the English test was about!!! Beats me - I was so drugged up that I thought I was in a Monty Pythom sketch...Let uz chek seine English...spek into das telephone!!!

I must dash now as I think foyles is open...

Laters

Clive

PS. I'll let you know if I get back into the Country okay...

Thanks for posting that Twirlie.

Stoke Newington police station is notorious for having some dodgy slippery steps.

Stanford

Good luck. This ia an intriguing one, although I feel you are on a hiding to nothing. Give David Hole a call. If anything, he can bring his experience to bear . ...

Also to mention that if you are under medication your capability to commit a crime is reduced under German law. "Straffmundbarkeit" or something.

Good luck, please let keep us informed what happens!

@ Marya

I'm whiter than rice and I had 2 hours of crap in immigration in Philadelphia last year ... you think I was gonna give those guys hassle ?

@ Stanford
Sorry for your trouble m8 but I reckon that you're in trouble here.

Unfortunately legality and justice are not the same things.

@ Stanford

I'm curious as to what makes you think it was racially motivated.

@ All

You guys need to see both sides here --- think of the officials --- you're looking at a drugged up black dude who's being a little belligerent - this is not an easy job IMHO. Not saying what they did was right - €2400 is way harsh but he was outta line. If it was me and I was in that situation then if you called me racist I'd be fuckin offended too.

My Uncle is a police sargeant in Ireland - according to him the groups responsible for the most crime are:

1. Junkies
2. Nigerians

Is he racist ? Should police check everyone regardless as to whether they look like one of either of these two groups or is that just unrealistic ?

In a common law legal system that focuses on the spirit of the law (and our customs, and common sense) like what us english speakers enjoy that is partially true, but germany has a civil / roman law system which is more concerned about the letter of the law.

In roman law systems right and wrong are practically defined by what the government chooses to write down in its legislation.

Have you ever been stopped when wearing a business suit, flying on a business flight, and the delay from questioning causes you to miss your flight?

The drugs were taken after the lad was stopped as he had an anxiety attack. I have made hundreds of flights in varying states of sobriety, casual or smart, shaven unshaven, and I have never even been taken to another room and questioned. Do you think the policeman made a perfectly normal comment when he said it was really difficult to tell if a black man is really the person in the photo as they all look the same.

It is ridiculous what this lad has been through, and I reckon he has a very strong case. The police cannot get him for calling them names if he backs up what he called them in court with come facts and figures.

Just a question. If you are a German resident. Should you not have a German driving license?
The police at the border could be more able to recognize the truth in papers from their own country.

Stanford, please forgive me if you have posted this already but i looked and couldn't find it.

What exactly did the border police do that you feel was racist? Did they call you any racist names? Did they say that they had stopped you because of your skin colour? Did they imply this at all?

As far as i can seen, you stopped at the border for a routine check, which obviously from your posts, had a detrimental effect on your health. Whatyou haven't made clear for me is why you believe this was racially motivated on the part of the border guards. You say you wrote a letter claiming that the police were racist in there behaviour. You ust be able to back this statement up with examples of how you believe their behaviour or actions were racist.

If you can back up your claim, i should imagine you would have good grounds to win an appeal against your fine. If you can't and you simply "feel" that they were racist, i am not sure you will win.

I understand that having dealt with this police harassment in the past you assumed that the police's behavior was racially motivated. Apart from past experience what specifically happened during this particular "incident" that made you think that it was racist?

I got pulled off a trans-Atlantic flight once prior to departure, accused of smuggling E's in front of dozens of people (they had seen me supposedly drop an envelope full of them before going through security - which was a total crock) and questioned and harassed in a back room just like in the movies . After having been interrogated for an hour I was released and basically told to go f--- myself. Though I'm not exactly an NSDAP poster boy, I'm pretty white. So what gives? People love to see racism everywhere but these experiences can happen to anyone.

EDIT: @OG Didn't see your post until I was done myself. I'd like to know the same thing too.

I am in a similar work situation to you, Stanford, and it is really scary every time.. I work between London and Munich and fly every week- and each time I arrive to MUC, I have a third degree interrogation.. even when leaving..( it gets worse everytime as well because there are more more MUC entry stamps in my passport...)

Its funny how one can speed through Salzburg or Nurnberg without issue, but arrive to MUC for a business meeting ... and...its like I´m the Unabomber!!

By the way Stanford, dont interpret it as racist.. I am white , wear a boring business suit from Next and carry a briefcase.. I look like your avg. mid class, white collar, suburb 30 something corporate employee and I have been detained for ages at MUC..

They are doing it to so many people now!!