How did the Germans let Hitler rise to power?

Very interesting thread. I didn't know there was such a depth of history knowledge among TTers. Mine is almost nothing.

But I do know one thing...

The Germans bombed our chippy!

Agreed - this post is One of the few here that try and deal with the issue in a reasonable way "The Germans" - who are? what are they? -> 80 +million people how can you generalise?

More Tea vicar

words fail me

splitting hairs, i know but...

80 - Millions. Minus all us foreigners that live here. There is a few million of us by all acounts

probably a few million Germans that don't live in DE too though

jeremy

I hold you personally responsible for this bloody thread.

Somebody whack his pee-pee!!!

The aim of the Anglo-American bombing offensive was to shorten the war by attacking the Germans' ability to wage war.

never said you were not big enough. and as its history there is only one absolute and that is the outcome. having been here a third of my life i am tierd of this the allies should have done something attitude. when it comes to the warsaw getho, then yep i'll agree with the next man that the russians should have pulled their finger out. but auschwitz. why? mercy mission? a strategic bombing mission with what? mosquitoes, lancs with tally boys? or an SOE operation to destroy something whose destruction may have given the enemy vital information, jesus can you imagine what would have happened if the nazis had cought an SOE man around auschwitz.
at the end of the day, any descisons about this are written down and kept under lock and key somewhere very safe. we will never know who said what and where, and my hypothesis is pure conjecture and it may offend but it definatley has a (COLD) logic to it, its not anti-jewish, its not anti-pole and its definatley not anti-german. the past is gone done and buried and to blame any living german of our generation for it is as wrong.

not quite true. Documents are released regularly. You just have to make the effort to read them. Some after 50, some after 100 years. A whole stack of material was released in the last year or so, which is why these topics never really die. Historians get more information to digest and come up with new theories.

ahh but the ones (if they exist) about this, will probably at least have a 100 year ban on them. if we see them at all.

@gideon

I'm not so naive as to accuse 80 million modern-day Germans for the Holocaust. There's also the Croats, the Poles, the Lithuanians, the Vichy and . . . . (JOKE!)

The Israelis have a saying: "forgive, but never forget." Why? Because the Jews in Europe in the 30s were amongst the best educated, highly integrated, cultured and productive peoples in the world. Notwithstanding the naive belief of many that "no harm could possibly come of us" the Final Solution occurred.

Sarte said that any wrongs the Israeli state commits are ultimately justified because of the great wrong they suffered. I feel that's possibly going to far. But I do believe that no one has the right criticiseany Jew who moniters Germans with some slight suspicion.

In the light of what happened, do you honestly think it is unreasonable? Will you bet your child's life that it will never happen in Europe again?

in the EU. yes.

@OG

I'm surprised at your conclusion, being the historian you are. Of course you might not say that if you emanated from one of the "losing groups" in the 20th century (and no, Wales doesn't count).

just a bit! I hardly see how the Jews being oppressed for hundreds of years gives the Israelis the right to screw the people on the West Bank around so much (separate thread though probably)

@boomtown

Correct. Completely separate thread.

This may be a bit radical, but did u ever think about how it came to the problems on the west bank? You do realize that the 'powers in charge' kicked the palestinians out of that region and gave the land to the Jews. What did they think would happen?

err maybe in your books. We lost our independance (invaded and conquered by the English), we lost our Welsh Prince of Wales (replaced by an "English" Prince), we almost lost our language (banned in school for well over a centuary and punishable by severe beatings if used in school), we lost our parliament (in Harlech Castle) to be replaced by a pseudo-autonomous hot-air factory thought up by Labourites to appease the voices fro independance in Scotland.

Yes, we lost out in history. But we are where we are now and i do not complain about what happened all those years ago and do not hold a grudge against any Englishman, exceot when playing rugby.

Agreed, though, that the Welsh did not suffer on the scale of the Jews. But the Jews actually made up less than 50% (i think) of all people exterminated by the Nazis, yet the Jews cry the loudest and longest. What abou the Gypsies, Russians, Slaws, Communists, gays, handicapped etc.

yep i do. cause you is talking shite, sorry but it has to be said. i have german family and enough (more than 7 months) experience of this country to know that germans couldn't even intervene in kosovo or somalia without going through a massive debate, nor do they wish arepeat of what happened. in fact who does? i critisise you because you can not let go off something that happened 60 years ago and build a future based on trust. who are you to believe that your monitored observations of german people, and the misguided sweeping statements are right? i'm the first to slag of the crap i have to go through here, but all in fair play. and no i wont bet my childs life. because it is not mine to bet with. we english do not bet our childrens lives, we have a habit of putting our own on the line to save them, and i would intend to keep that tradition alive if such time should come. and to be honest why are you here? to prove your suspision that the vierte reich is alive and well. satre was wrong, the holocaust is sadly the jewish "raison d'etre", take it away and they will see that they have become what they hated. remember the palistinian who was forced to play his violin by armed isrealis.

EDIT:- go and get your families KZ number tatooed on your arm, i've read its all the rage in your part of the world. then you can keep the hate up forever!

<Looks forward to Middle East thread>
Seeing as we have recently done Ireland, travellers and the pope.

Middle East is indeed an interesting and very complicated topic. Feel free to start it. May better to wait till next Friday though.

yep, I can't face that today - next week should be fine

yep friday discussions nead to begin in the morning. but that one will be heated i can promise you.

@gideon

that's going a bit overboard don't you think? And you forget that these emotions aren't based on something that happened 60 years ago, but something that has been going on for thousandsof years. What happened 60 years was the breaking point.

no i dont think. i think somebody seriously suspicious of my wife and her family and attatching blame to the for the most henious crime in mankinds history (apart from global warming) just because of their place of birth is OTT. history is history be it a thousand or sixty years ago, niether you nor i can be held accountable nor responsible for that. not one german in the last 60 years has hurt Mr. Vicar or his family, nor do they realy care too. its just too bizzarly rascist to even think about.

@gideon and OG

All good debate. Not going to start answering your points because its Friday evening and we'll be here all weekend. I do find some of your statements quite shocking, but I can't expect you to empathise fully with my position.

And no, I'm not being arrogant. My view of political debate is that it ultimately boils down to subjective experience and self-interest. OG will confirm that it is called "realism".

Anyhow, have a good weekend, and I look forward to the next one . . . I'm off to Somerset.

Besos

MTV

it can be called realism. subjective experience can also blinker that person from accepting the wider picture (not saying that this is necessarily true in your case, though), especially if the experiences are limited to one particular side or aspect. This is why the western allies' views over the second world war are completely at odds with the way Russia has always viewed it.

Here is my probably vain attempt to get back to the original topic.

I read the article in Spiegel. To me there is nothing new or surprising about it. Just look at the case of Oskar Schindler for an example of how war plundering directly worked. What the book discussed in Spiegel apparently does is to systematically detail the way the German war-plunder economy worked. What suprises me is that such a book is contraversial at all. I guess some Germans have been building up a false myth that the majority of Germans were innocent victims of propaganda and state terror.

I cannot explain fully why or how the Nazis managed to take power - especially not in this small space. Just bare in mind that Germany was in upheaval after losing WW1, the communist threat was very real, but also that the Nazis used brutal tactics to suppress any opposition, well before they were in power. They brutally assassinated, beat up, blackmailed and threatened opponents. To get a feal for the pre-1933 atmosphere, check out this article.

Once Hitler was in power, the propaganda and also the terror were overwhelming. Most people believed the "big lies" (don't we all) and, according to this book, the plunder based economy reinforced their willingness to believe. This is what makes people such as The White Rose and Oskar Schindler even more amazing. Schindler to me is the extremely interesting because he was certainly no saint (he was a womanising war-profiteering Nazi party member), but when he saw what was going on, he cannily did everything in his power to prevent it. But such people were few and far between, which is why I welcome a book such as this which fights against the tendecy to minimise the collective guilt of the German people at that time.

To those in this thread who see Nazis under every bed in modern day Germany, I would suggest they go and talk to some Russians or Ukrainians. There you can meet some real anti-semites.

Just picking up on an earlier point, and although photographic recon of Auschwitz didn't exist on file until 1944 (April 4th was earliest pic I could find just now), it's believed that ULTRA decrypts suggested mass-extermination of the Jews on the Russian steppe in September 1941. Certainly there's no way British intelligence couldn't have known about the Endlosung - you can't simply eliminate 6 million people and it not be noticed - even if you do try and conceal it from the enemy. Whether or not we should have bombed Auschwitz is a different point all together - the logistics of it, by 1944, weren't so difficult - the U.S. were able to raid quite far into the East from bases in Italy as well remember...

please explain your subjective experience. you were niether a holocaust victim nor have you been in germany long enough. you are basing emotional responses on second hand info, you are wearing somebody elses story as your badge. that is your realism, and sadly your self-interest.

I too have a german partner, have been here 3 years and plan to have a family here one day. I think that qualifies me to have an opinion. I personally am not trying to atribute the crimes of the father to the son / present day generation, but that does not stop me being critical of the germans as a race and as a society with regard to this topic.

I have discussed this topic at length with my partner, my partners family and many german friends here. I am personally not comfortable with the general attitude of superiority and arrogance of many germans and german society as a whole, because, completely aside from the unpleasantness of it in itself, knowing what this characteristic has (at least partly) led to in the past is for me very unsettling.

I have put this to many germans here, more or less in the form: 'Is it enough that such an attrocity (the effects) will never again originate from german soil or should not also the roots (causes) be addressed?'. Most reply that it is enough to combat the effects. I do not agree. My german partner is btw also in agreement with me. She is a school teacher and is driven mad sometimes by the arrogance and superiority of the current generation (having also lived for a number of years abroad).

I think personally that at least some of the factors that led to the rise of someone like hitler in the past are still or again present in german society and this has been allowed to happen precisely because the causes were never adressed. It is correct to say that based on past experience such a rise itself will not be allowed to happen again. But that is not enough.

interesting post, MysteryMan. Combined with the often unquestioning adherence to rules, despite whether they make sense, I can see your point.

I am so fucking bored and sick to death of this subject!! It's worse than tearing Bush and America a new asshole all the time. Can we move on people???

I'm just chuffed that the thread got merged, so now I can claim the glory of ten pages of good debate!

I dont think its a boring topic at all! I have devoured all ten pages with great interest, and I have been suprised by the intelligently worded responses!

carry on

@ DD

just don't read the thread, then. simple innit?

I wasn't online yesterday so I totally missed it, but this quote above caught my eye. It's happening in the U.S. today. The population is being "held" dumb, as a result, we got W. in office. I would also equate this dumbing down of the population to the number of privately-owned television stations and the number of hours spent watching their programs. The dumber the population, the better and the elite can rule.
I am afraid for our future. We don't learn from our (historically-speaking) mistakes.

This basically concurs with what I was saying earlier (I don´t know if you were referring to my post...). Also remember that actual precision bombing was technically possible when needed and/or desired – just read up about Mosquito bombers if you haven´t had the chance…


This attitude of superiority exists all over the world, not just in Germany. When you lose wars it's considered a little more uncool, that's all.


I think that German "arrogance" played a secondary role in the Nazis' rise to power.

In my humble opinion, two other factors had a huge impact on Germany specifically and are the reasons that this will “never happen again�.

1) The Great Depression. I'm no economic historian however I believe that it still ranks as the worst economic fallout in modern history. Even when people mention the unemployment rate in Germany having recently reached pre-1933 levels, the overall situation is incomparable to the overall economic cataclysm which took place in the late 20s/early 30s.
2) The Treaty of Versailles. Not only was the economy a shambles but the outrageously harsh conditions of Versailles (thanks in large part to a real SOB who happens to be a national icon in France!?) completely humiliated a nation which arguably could've won World War I as easily as it lost it.

Hitler happened to be the strong charismatic leader who gradually rose to power, taking full advantage of the socio-economic climate, promising to pull Germany out of the mess they were in.

It could've been anyone really, could've happened minus the Holocaust had they not been Nazis, and had little to do with this alleged German national superiority complex.

Don't agree. I agree that there were regimes and periods of time when this kind of superiority complex existed but it always led to trouble. Maybe I would go as far as to say, that without the peculiar conditions of the time that undoubtedly led to the war and the holocaust, something similar would have happened sooner or later. It was waiting to happen. This opinion has been expressed by many historians.


I am talking about the holocaust. And the holocaust had everything to do with the german national, racial and cultural superiority complex. Yes it took the nazis to take it to an extreme / put it into action and the population to remain in silent assent. Exactly my point.

The roots of the nazi ideology are in racial superiority. Look at the first paragraph of any description of naziism. Wikipedia for example: "Adherents of Nazism held that the German nation and the purported "Aryan" race were superior to other races." Very few germans today would be willing to express it in these terms, but the attitudes are there and very visible to anyone who has day to day dealings with germans. It can also be evidenced in the german will to be the best. If I had a euro for every time i heard the sentence 'We have the best X in the world' in germany, I would be a rich man.

I don't want to give the impression that worrying about this eats up my every waking moment. It doesn't. By and large I have a happy life in Germany. But it is there and I don't like it and I think something can be done about it.

Other than that we will have to agree to disagree.

I think these attitudes exist all over the world. They are just usually called national pride. The Americans, British and French are just as proud of themselves, although often they are proud of different things. On the other hand, my german wife lived in Ireland for six months 10 years ago and was shocked at how blatantly racist the people were.

There is a big difference between national pride and superiority complex.

Really? Is it like the difference between nationalism and patriotism? Personally I find it a fine line indeed. Usually what the insider sees as positive pride, the outsider sees as dangerous jingoism.

Anyway, I see the problem in Germany these days as being one of disappointment and lack of confidence rather than the opposite. Too often you hear Germans saying "Scheiss Deutschland" coupled with whinging about how the Germans can't get anything right any more. Perhaps it is the flipside of the same problem of a lack of perspective, I don't know.

I now writing a paper for western civil., about Hitler and effect the Nazi had on Europe life. A lot of imformation is from a book called the rise and fall of the third reich by William L. Shirer. This book has a lot interesting information about hitler and Nazi German. I don't think it was directly the fault of German for Hitler coming in to power, but the circumstances. In the time before world war II started German was a very poor country and mosts german where very poor and mosts Jew were rich..

German had went to fight in the first world war and when they came home they had nothing, so I would be kind of upset if I fought for my country and come home and had nothing too..

Hitler was a very good speak and he told the peoplke what they want to hear and he even told them what he would do if he came into power with his book Mein Kampf, he never lied to the people no one believe that someone like Hitler would come into power, not even the US believe it.

Yes, what hitler did was terrible but it not the fault of the german people because it could have been prevented.

I think that the German people that were old enough to have an effect at the time, and who are still alive, have to shoulder their part of the blame. Without their consent Hitler could not have come to power so quickly. I don't think the majority of the German population at the time could have done more than prevented the inevitable. However, once absolute power had been gained, dissent became very dangerous.

But I agree that the appeasement attitudes of other countries did not help. A few more months or years may have helped lessen the Nazi's power. Other nations would have had more time to provarocate. Some may even have actually done something.

I once read (I'm sure someone like OG might know the fine details) that there was a certain amount of lobbying by certain groups, especially in France and Britian, for the BEF and other allies to advance and take up positions in the Rhineland in September 1939, whilst the Wehrmacht was tied up in Poland. This may have disuaded Hitler. Although I suspect the Blitzkreig against those defences would have eventually taken place, they would have been a lot harder to break through.

The general consensus is that if the French, who were organized military to fight a defensive war, had taken their huge tank army and invaded Germany in September 1939 they would've pretty much been able to march to Berlin unopposed...

So, don't read the thread... It's very ignore to write something like that, because it was a big turning effect for world and importantly Europe, with out Hitler's war the wouldn't not probably a EU... So, before you stupid shit think about what your says, because no one ask you to enter the thread you did on you own... There are still people who want to know and discuss what when on in this time. Plus, Bush and Hitler can't be compared...

never heard much about french involvment before and during the war - do you know anywhere on the net with info about stuff like this?

Im coming to this thread very very late in the day but I think Jules is correct... the French had the Germans hopelessly outgunned but their strategy was shit ... hence the rubbish Panzer I and II shredded em but only in an offensive strategem.

Was there not some intelligencia purging in Germany at the beginning of the war? I have read a German tacktic was to execute the social proffessors and leaders immediately when arriving in a new place. The Poles were tricked before the war to join a "meeting" to discuss "issues" between their nations. They were killed but no one cared because the war quickly started.

Certainly the Jews were intelligent AND sceptical since they were probably better travelled, had family in other countries, had a broader perspective on politics, saw the evil within, dangerous thinking for a gov with a nationalistic agenda, and thus suffered the first "attack" of the war - a verbal attack to be totally discreditted. Even today most germans will say the typical german dies within km of where they are born, lives in the same house for their adult life, etc, etc. Imagine in 1930.

Obviously germans travel abroad as much as anyone (except Americans) and get balanced global news like ever other country (except America) thus using a simple escape goat is as impossible in Germany as it is is any other country (except _____ )

Ahh, my favourite thread.

Wanted to thank Mysteryman and Sin for their useful input which I have just read.

Also re-read some of the mispelt rants of "gideon" which I have reproduced below.

gideon my son - what can you say when sundry third parties come up with the same "watch the Germans" opinion??? There are millions of people in the world who feel this way. Christ when I left England everyone said I was mad going to Germany. Even my mates and colleagues who'd never set foot here. Are they all Jews who need to get their arms tatooed in sympathy with their parents and grandparents?? Is every Belgian, Pole, Frenchman and Russian making a personal attack at your sodding wife and her family, you blinking oaf?

Your Jewish references below are the usual ignorant anti-semitic shite I have every come across. Lets have another read . . . .

gideon's emotional rants: -

"EDIT:- go and get your families KZ number tatooed on your arm, i've read its all the rage in your part of the world. then you can keep the hate up forever!"

"no i wont bet my childs life. because it is not mine to bet with. we english do not bet our childrens lives, we have a habit of putting our own on the line to save them, and i would intend to keep that tradition alive if such time should come. and to be honest why are you here? to prove your suspision that the vierte reich is alive and well. satre was wrong, the holocaust is sadly the jewish "raison d'etre", take it away and they will see that they have become what they hated."

"please explain your subjective experience. you were niether a holocaust victim nor have you been in germany long enough. you are basing emotional responses on second hand info, you are wearing somebody elses story as your badge. that is your realism, and sadly your self-interest."

What? Where? Fuck? How?

I thought this thread had been executed?

blimey.

I should co-co moonboot!