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Poll says Israelis sympathetic towards Germany

Exposure to German culture relatively widespread

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marinata
A new poll conducted by the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and the German Friedrich Ebert Foundation shows that 70 years after the outbreak of World War Two, only 5% of Israelis still make sure to boycott German products sold in Israel.

"The poll's findings show that, contrary to the official position and the media's stance, the feelings of the Israeli public, and in particular the Jewish public in Israel, towards Germany are not only neutral, but are even sympathetic," Professor Moshe Zimmerman of the university's Koebner Center explained.

"The past has not cast its shadow on attitudes towards Germany in the present, and the Israeli public feels it is dealing with its past appropriately," he said.

Exposure to German cultures is also relatively widespread. Thirty percent of the respondents said they had watched at least one German film in recent years. The most popular German film among the respondents was "The Lives of Others", following bye "Good Bye Lenin!".

Only 20% of respondents said they believe Germany's Nazi past overclouded the Soccer World Cup tournament held in the country three years ago.

"If in the past every German was automatically identified as a Nazi, this is not the situation today," Zimmerman said. "We have a past, and we have a present, and the past does not affect our vision in the present.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3774804,00.html
Dr. Love
Nice one marinata. Indeed good news.

Also Germany (especially Berlin) has the fastest growing Jewish community in the world outside of Israel.
marinata
Dr. Love

Don't want to be wet blanket (party poofer) but the Jewish German relationship was always one sided.

Do read "Victor Klemperer - Diaries 1933-1945."

As Hitler's Nazis increasingly cast their paralyzing spell over all parts of life in Germany, he loses first his professorship and then his car, his phone, his house, even his typewriter, and is forced to move into a "Jews' House" (the last step before the camps), put his cat to death (Jews may not own pets), and suffer countless other indignities and the Nazi secret police, the Gestapo, started terrorizing the cramped Jewish inhabitant. The war started, one Jewish resident, Herr Katz, had little doubt where his alliance lies

On page 519:

Everybody in the house absolutely certain of German victory. Then downstairs, related by marriage in some way, a fat, brutal-looking Herr Katz, businessman, served as an officer during the war, is a monomaniac of the German soldierly spirit, his talk is more nationalist than any Nazi, is happy at German victories, contemptuous of the Entente. "We" shall starve England out, "we are irresistible, invincible." — The English blockade? "Nebbish the blockade!" —
http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,341147,00.html

Victor Klemperer
"I am German, the Others Are Un-German"

The Nazis made Victor Klemperer's life a living hell. Baptized Christian but of Jewish descent, Hitler's henchmen labeled him "un-German." In a bizarre twist of fate, Klemperer could essentially thank a catastrophe -- the bombing of Dresden sixty years ago -- for saving him from the terror of the Nazi regime.

"I am fighting the most difficult of battles for my German-ness now. I must hold on to it: I am German, the others are un-German. I must hold on to it: The soul is what matters, not the flesh and blood. I must hold on to it: being a Zionist would sound funny to me, but my christening -- that was not funny, it was something very serious." Those were the lines that Victor Klemperer jotted down in his notebook in May 1942. His entire life, Klemperer, an author born on October 9, 1881 as the son of a rabbi, struggled to come to terms with his Deutschlandbild, his image of Germany. "His" Germany, the Germany of others around him, and, most importantly, the fact that the two images never quite matched one another -- that's what Klemperer wrestled with his entire life. Klemperer was seen as a Jew, but he didn't feel like one. He wanted to be German, but the Nazis made him "un-German."

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MonksTown
Don't want to be wet blanket (party poofer) but the Jewish German relationship was always one sided.
Have you any evidence for this blanket suggestion?

Becasue it sounds like the xenophobic suggestion that Germany is per se anti-Semitic.
marinata
Read Amos Elon's book "The Pity of it all, German Jews 1743-1933" 2002 (published in German as "Zu einer anderen Zeit, Portrait der deutsch-jüdischen Epoche" in 2003)

"Before Hitler rose to power, other Europeans often feared, admired, envied, and ridiculed the Germans; only Jews seemed actually to have loved them"

The best essay on the issue could be read online

http://www.scribd.com/doc/18012543/GERSHOM-SCHOLEM-JEWS-AND-GERMANS-
wolfgangstuttgart
Have you any evidence for this blanket suggestion?
Blanket? Suggestion?

Holy crap, how could I forget that between 1933 and 1945 it was six Million Jews who killed 20 Million Germans, and not vice versa - or do I maybe-maybe confuse everything again, and completely? ...

And if the facts of the past are disturbing MonksTown sensitivities towards Germany a tad too hard, let's talk about today: Iran's Ahmadinejad has promised to wipe Germany off the map, right? And that's why Israel has very extensive economic relations to Iran. Or did I maybe get it all wrongly again, and instead it is Israel that the Iranian president has vowed to wipe off the map, and it is Germany that supports the Iranian regime with deliveries of strategic material that is important for the survival of that killer regime?

Now considering the facts - and there are many more that google could tell you about - could that help to understand when marinata called the Jewish German relationship one sided?

Becasue it sounds like the xenophobic suggestion that Germany is per se anti-Semitic.
1: what in marinata's post smells like a xenophobic suggestion? Because the sentence you quoted does not even come close to be xenophobic.

2: Where does anything in marinata's post suggest that "Germany per se" is antisemitic?

Now MonksTown, I really do not want to shake your sweet weekend night behind some possible German Hefe too hard, but is there maybe-maybe the possibility you could google next time a few facts before you're boring us with your version of them? And maybe you read the posts actually, before you write they sound "xenophobic"?

Thank you, and good night.
marinata
@ wolfgangstuttgart

This Jewish love for German culture is much more complicated. The national Germans before the war saw the Jewish "contribution" to German sphere as damaging and unwelcomed whether they love them or not. The Jewish scholar Gershom Scholem said the so-called German-Jewish symbiosis was a tragicomic self-delusion.

Only months after the end of World War II, Friedrich Meinecke, the leading German historian of the first half of the 20th century, published his Deutsche Katastrophe ('The German catastrophe') one of the most influential postwar works on the causes of Hitler's success. Although Meinecke did not have much to say on the destruction of European Jewry, he did try, in at least two or three instances, to give an explanation for the root of National Socialists Jew-hatred. I would like to quote from the longest of these passages to highlight what was in many ways a common approach to the so called "Jewish Question" in the wake of the German catastrophe.

"The Jews, who were inclined to enjoy indiscreetly the favorable economic situation now smiling upon them, had since their full emancipation aroused resentment of various sorts. They contributed much of that gradual depreciation and discrediting of the of the liberal world of ideas that set in after the end of the nineteenth century. The fact that besides their negative and disintegrating influence they also achieved a great deal that was positive in the cultural and economic life of Germany was forgotten by the mass of those who now attacked the damage done by the Jewish charcter"

See also the postwar comments of another liberal in the Weimar republic, Otto Gessler, Reichswehrpolitik in der Weimarer Republik (1958) "If after all anti-Semitism was able to strike deep roots in Germany, then it was above all because of the aforementioned literary circles. With cold cynicism they tore down everything which was dear to German national feeling... it was a failure of their racial comrades (Rassegenosson) not to deem it necessary to draw a clear line between the literary circles and themselves."
wolfgangstuttgart
@ marinata: Thanks for the extra information

The quotes (Meinecke/Gessler) remind me lots of today's anti-semitism ("It's the Jews'/Israelis' own fault"), but elaborating on that would lead this thread off-topic - so i stop that here. For now ... :)
marinata
No, you didn't understand me. Insisting that's the essence of antisemitism is being hated for nothing makes history troublesome. But reading it other way will let for the dangerous assumption that the Jews did something to deserve the hate of Europeans. Could we read history without blaming the German Jews for their suffering yet understanding why they were rejected by the general public? (Israel is another issue.)

Few Jews agreed with Friedrich Meinecke analysis. Like the Jewish Franz Werfel, once a member of the Expressionist avant-garde, wrote shortly before his death in Hollywood in August 1945, one of the most succinct characterizations of the age to which Hitler finaly took power. He unambiguously acknowledges the responsibility which he and his his own generation of artists and extremist, he even castigated himself for his arrogance: "Applauded by the laughter of a few philistines, we stoked the inferno in which mankind is now frying"

("Between Heaven and Earth‎ - Page 250 by Franz Werfel)
marinata
The best essay on the subject was written by Gershom Scholem in 1966

It is now almost two decades since the great scholar Gershom Scholem pronounced his verdict on the Jewish-German "symbiosis": "The love affair of the Jews and the Germans remained one-sided and unreciprocated." The enthusiasm for German culture that had stamped his and earlier generations of extraordinary German-speaking intellectuals and artists was misguided. The Jews, he said, had unfortunately been dwelling at the wrong address, and that address had always been on a one-way street. Even the much envied "preeminence" achieved by the Central European Jewish cultural renaissance of the late ninteenth and early twentieth centuries was never truly appreciated by their German contemporaries. The very success of those Jews stoked the fires of ressentiment and anti-Semitism. They became a "source of irritation" and their "preeminence turned into disaster for them."

THE Jewish passion for all things German

http://www.scribd.com/doc/18012543/GERSHOM-SCHOLEM-JEWS-AND-GERMANS-

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/jews-and-germans-4266?search=1

Jews and Germans by Gershom Scholem

Commentary Magazine November 1966

I do not count myself among them, for I do not believe that there ought to be such a thing as a permanent state of war among peoples. I also deem it right-what is more, I deem it importantthat Jews, precisely as Jews, speak to Germans in full consciousness of what has happened and of what separates them. The atmosphere between Jews and Germans can be cleansed only if we seek to get to the bottom of their relationship, and only if we employ the unrestrained criticism that the case demands.

The furtive glances cast by the Jews toward the Germans were from the very outset attended by considerable dislocations, which at a later stage of the process were to lead to bitter problems. As the price of Jewish emancipation, the Germans demanded a disavowal of Jewish nationality-a price the leading writers and spokesmen of the Jewish avant-garde were only too happy to pay. For what had begun as furtive glances soon turned into a passionate involvement with the realm of German history; and the objects of enlightened toleration not infrequently became ardent prophets, prepared to speak in the name of the Germans themselves. The attentive reader of German reactions to this process and its acrobatics soon perceives a recurrent note of astonishment, and an irony that is partly amiable, partly malicious. With the renunciation of a crucial part of Jewish existence in Germany, the ground was prepared for what appears to many of us to have been a completely false start in the history of modern relations between Jews and Germans-even though, given the conditions of 1800, it possessed a certain immanent logic of its own. The liberals hoped for a decisively progressive Jewish self-dissolution. The conservatives, however, with their greater sense of history, had reservations about this new phenomenon. They began to chalk up against the Jews an alltoo- great facility for renouncing their ethnic consciousness. Thus a sinister and dangerous dialectic arose. The self-surrender of the Jews, although welcomed and indeed demanded, was also often seen as evidence of their lack of moral substance and thereby contributed to the disdain in which they were held by so many Germans. For what could a heritage be worth if the elite of its chosen heirs were in such a rush to disavow it?

Such, then, was the dangerous dialectic of the whole process. The Jews struggled for emancipation- and this is the tragedy that moves us so much today - not for the sake of their rights as a people, but for the sake of assimilating themselves to the peoples among whom they lived. By their readiness to give up their peoplehood, by their act of disavowal, they did not put an end to their misery; they merely opened up a new source of agony. Assimilation did not dispose of the Jewish question in Germany; rather it shifted the locus of the question and rendered it all the more acute, for as the area of contact between the two groups widened, the possibilities of friction widened as well. The "adventure" of assimilation, into which the Jews threw themselves so passionately (it is easy to see why) necessarily increased the dangers which grew out of heightened tension.

Added to this was the fact that there was something "disordered" - and in a double sense - about the Jews who were exposed to this new encounter with the Germans: they were "disordered" by the personal and social consequences of the undignified conditions under which they were forced to live; and they were "disordered" by the deep insecurity that began to hound them the moment they left the ghetto in order, as the formula had it, "to become Germans." This double disorder of the German Jews was one of the factors which retarded, disturbed, and eventually brought to a gruesome end the process - or trial - that now began in such earnest. The refusal of so many German Jews to recognize the operation of such factors and the dialectic to which they bear witness, is among the saddest discoveries made by today's reader of the discussions of those times. The emotional confusion of the German Jews between 1820 and 1920 is of considerable importance if one wishes to understand them as a group, a group characterized by that "German-Jewishness" (Deutschjudentum) many of us encountered in our own youth and which stimulated us to resistance.

THE Jewish passion for things German is connected with the specific historical hour in which it was born. At the moment in time when Jews turned from their medieval state toward the new era of enlightenment and revolution, the overwhelming majority of them - 80 per cent - lived in Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Eastern Europe. Due to prevailing geographic, political, and linguistic conditions, therefore, it was German culture that most Jews first encountered on their road to the West. Moreove r- and this is decisive - the encounter occurred precisely at the moment when that culture had reached one of its most fruitful turning- points. It was the zenith of Germany's bourgeois era, an era which produced an image of things German that, up to 1940, and among very broad classes of people, was to remain unshaken, even by many most bitter experiences. Thus a newly-awakened Jewish creativity, which was to assume such impressive forms after 1780, impinged upon a great period of German creativity. One can say that it was a happy hour, and indeed, it has no parallel in the history of Jewish encounters with other European peoples. The net result was the high luster that fell on all things German. Even today, after so much blood and so many tears, we cannot say that it was only a deceptive luster. It was also more, both in fact and in potentia.

The unending Jewish demand for a home was soon transformed into the ecstatic illusion of being at home. It is well-known, and easy to understand, that the speed of this transformation, which even today amazes the observer, the haste of this breakup of the Jews, was not paralleled by an equally quick reciprocal reaction on the part of the Germans. For the Germans had not known they were dealing with such deep processes of decay in the Jewish tradition and in Jewish self-consciousness, and they recoiled from the whole procedure. While they would have approved of the eventual result of the process - which accorded at least with the prevailing liberal ideology and to a considerable extent with the prevailing conservative one - they were altogether unprepared for this tempo, which struck them as overheated and whose aggressiveness set them on the defensive. Sooner or later this defensiveness was to combine with those currents of opinion which from the very beginning had reacted to the whole process with antipathy and which, since the post-Mendelssohn generation, had never lacked for eloquent spokesmen. No one has more profoundly characterized this breaking away of the Jews from themselves than Charles Peguy, who had an insight into the Jewish condition rarely attained, let alone surpassed, by non-Jews. To him we owe the sentence: "Etre ailleurs, le grand vice de cette race, la grande vertue secrete, la grande vocation de ce peuple."* This "being elsewhere" combined with the desperate wish to "be at home" in a manner at once intense, fruitful, and destructive. It is the clue to the relationship of the Jews to the Germans. It is what makes their symbolic position so alluring and so gripping to today's observer, and it is also what at the time caused them to appear disgusting, to be working under false pretenses, and to be deliberately provocative of opposition.

No benefit redounded to the Jews of Germany from what today, under very different circumstances, invests them with positive significance for an important part of the world and brings them special consideration: I am thinking of the widespread current appreciation of Jews as classic representatives of the phenomenon of man's alienation from society. The German Jew was held to blame for Most of the ablest Jewish minds, however, enhanced German society with an astonishingly profuse outpouring in the fields of economics, science, literature, and art. In a famous essay, the great American sociologist, Thorstein Veblen, wrote of the intellectual "pre-eminence" of the Jews; it was this pre-eminence that was to spell their doom in Germany. In their economic role, the Jews had served as a progressive force in the development of 19th-century Germany, but long after there had ceased to be a need for that, they continued to exercise-especially in the 20th century- a cultural function which from the very beginning had awakened unrest and resistance, and had awakened unrest and resistance, and which never did them any good. That the Germans did in fact need the Jews in their spiritual world is now, when they are no longer present, noticed by many, and there is mourning over the loss. But when the Jews were there, they were a source of irritation (whether they wanted to be or not).

By the middle of the 19th century, the great majority of Germans had at last become reconciled to the political emancipation of the Jews, but there was no corresponding readiness to accept the unrestrained movement of the Jews into the ranks of the culturally active. The Jews, of course, with their long intellectual tradition, considered themselves made-to-order for such an active role among the German elite. But this is precisely what stimulated a resistance that was to become increasingly vigorous and virulent, and was finally to prevent the process of their acceptance from having any chance of fulfillment. By and large, then, the love affair of the Jews and the Germans remained one-sided and unreciprocated; at best it awakened something like compassion (as it did with Theodore Fontane, to name only one famous, but hardly unambiguous, example) or grat itude. But if the Jews did on occasion meet with gratitude, they almost never found the love they were seeking.

Nothing corresponds to this in the much-discussed German-Jewish dialogue-a dialogue which in fact never took place. At a time when no one cared a whit about them, no German stood forth to recognize the genius of Kafka, Simmel, Freud, or Walter Benjamin-to say nothing of recognizing them as Jews. The present, belated concern with these great figures does nothing to change this fact. The feeling was widespread that the emancipation of the Jews heralded the appearance of radical and subversive tendencies. And indeed, during a century of prominence in journalism, the Jews did play a highly visible role in the criticism of German public affairs-a role deeply grounded in their history as well as in their social position and function. In reaction to this role, the phenomenon of anti-Semitism-to which the Jews responded with peculiar blindnessbegan to send forth its malignant tendrils.
Chrisimo
Holy crap, how could I forget that between 1933 and 1945 it was six Million Jews who killed 20 Million Germans, and not vice versa - or do I maybe-maybe confuse everything again, and completely? ...
Really a perfect summary of Germany...really.

And if the facts of the past are disturbing MonksTown sensitivities towards Germany a tad too hard, let's talk about today: Iran's Ahmadinejad has promised to wipe Germany off the map, right? And that's why Israel has very extensive economic relations to Iran. Or did I maybe get it all wrongly again, and instead it is Israel that the Iranian president has vowed to wipe off the map, and it is Germany that supports the Iranian regime with deliveries of strategic material that is important for the survival of that killer regime?
The state of Israel does not love Germany and the state of Germany does not love Israel. Furthermore, the state of Israel does not equal Jews, nor does the state of Germany equal Germans. So any perceived one-sidedness can only exist between individual Germans and individual Jews.
Bell the cat
kind of think there is a bit too much generalisation going on here. Even in the thirties I would have said that only a minority held potently anti-semitic views. A large swathe of the rest kept their heads down and did what they were told but a sizeable minority of the German population opposed anti-semitism and either end up dead because of it, hid Jews themselves or aided the various uderground resistance movements. You have to remember the first people in the camps were social democrat, communist, trade unionist and other left wing Germans who for the most part were rigidly against antisemitism. I would have said this was very much the case today though the boot is on the other shoe with governments in power that oppose antisemitism and the vast majority of the population going with that flow.

It is also irritating to see people once again equating legitimate criticism of the israeli state with antisemitism or requiring the whole world to treat israel's enemies as outcast nations. Ahmedinejad has indeed vowed to wipe Israel off the map - he did so for populist national reasons and largely because in the last decade Iran has been totally isolated. Raprochement with Iran is part of the process of taking the heat out of the dangerous build up of rage between israel and Iran. There has to be a world where Iran and Israel can respect each other's right to exist and live in peace. Neither one should be destroyed whatever either of them wish.
marinata
the boot is on the other shoe with governments in power that oppose antisemitism and the vast majority of the population going with that flow.
What do you mean "going with that flow"?

In a related poll:

As reported in 2003, studies now estimate overt anti-Semitism at around 23 percent, and covert anti-Semitism as existing among 30–40 percent of the German public.

http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-urban-f04.htm
wolfgangstuttgart
[ .... ] any perceived one-sidedness can only exist between individual Germans and individual Jews.
You're definitely correct - but please remember I was referring to a previous message that brought the notion of "Germany" into the debate. And besides: in Germany, like it or not, live quite a few Germans. Approved? ... :)
parnell
"If in the past every German was automatically identified as a Nazi, this is not the situation today," Zimmerman said. "We have a past, and we have a present, and the past does not affect our vision in the present.
I think that the above hardly qualifies as "sympathy".

this also from the article:

"The conclusion is clear," Zimmerman said, "The more religious you are, the more you hate Germans."

I'm a big fan of Jewish people but I've encountered a lot more and more trenchant anti-Teutonism amongst Jews than anti-Semitism amongst Germans.

And BTC is right , a lot of people wish to equate anti-Zionism or even criticism of some Israeli actions with anti-Semitism - which is really silly. It'd be far smarter if Zionists said - "Look , we see your point , but fact of the matter is nowhere in the ME is an Arab better treated than in Israel".
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