Skinheads and racism in Berlin

I just read this on a travel site about Berlin. What do you guys think?

There are radical feminists in Berlin too. Regardless if it is the Lesbenkneipe or the Frauenbuchladen -they don't let males in. They even get violent. Is that on this witty travelsite too? Have a link?

Well I'm told the Japanese Embassy issued a travel advisory a few years back telling its staff to no longer use the S-bahn for fear of attacks, and only take buses, taxis, and private transport.

I was also told a Vietnamese kiosk in West Berlin was attacked with baseball bats a few months ago.

I am assuming the Japanese Embassy was not referring to German feminists out for the blood of Japanese diplomats; or that the Vietnamese kiosk was attacked by bald headed feminists dressed up as men.

Thanks for the additional info. Of course there is racism in Berlin and there are incidents that make you vomit. But the first posting was about Lichtenberg and Hellersdorf and east Germany and it sounded almost funny. These places are dangerous for everybody who is not from there, being white or asian. That's why I hinted at the lesbians, because in that case you have to be stupid enough to go to a place where you can expect trouble. Just like going as a male into a pub for lesbian females only.

I (white) have an asian girlfriend and she hasn't had problems so far, but I can ask her about what she knows. Of course neither of us is either going to east Berlin or traveling with the S-Bahn. Just know there are people of all colors in Berlin. And some of them can be quite violent without having to be a nazi type skinhead.

I think an Asian women may have different experiences from an Asian man, or a black man for that matter.

For example, a black man walking by himself in the American South may be ignored. But the same man walking hand in hand with a white woman, and he is sure to get trouble in many parts.

I wonder if this same thing occurs in Berlin, except even worse. After all, I don't think the Ambassador from South Africa would really be lying about his experiences. And it's pretty bad when a foreign diplomat of his stature is being called a "nigger" on the streets and having his employees beaten close to death.

This made me quite angry:

Anything can occur when you get into the wrong people. Especially when they are frustrated, unemployed, drunk and stupid. Alcohol and stupidity is not excuse here, but that is one of the facts that you have to deal with. They will attack anybody, in that case a foreigner. As you told, it can also happen in the US. And it may even happen in South Africa.

Me too. These guys should rot in prison forever.


Boy. Al-Qaeda and Neo-Nazis and "Werewolf" cadres in one article. If this article doesn't make you fear, what does? It is difficult to infiltrate, but he knows all about them, of course.

Don't get me wrong here. There are too many neo-Nazis in Germany, but I think it is more likely that you get into another type of asshole in this country much earlier.

This is not untypical for the way the media operates sometimes. Not just in Berlin and not just in Germany.

@Genau! Gr8 name. Why didn't I think of it?

@grtho - you know what I think of racism. Over here and getting out of hand.

Note that attacks (on Jews and Muslims) are going through the roof at the moment in France and Britain as well.

Hi to you all,

lived in Berlin for more than 10 years so you can trust me on this one. Indeed it does depend where in Berlin you move about. You really are more likely to encounter rascism as a person of colour in the eastern part than in the western part. I lived in Kreuzberg, a district which is known for having a large percentage of foreigners. I never encountered rascism while living there. Although I certainly do not look foreign I once got attacked by a Neonazi in the eastern part who overheard me conversing in English (gosh! what a crime!) and I am female, didn't make a difference to him. I unfortunately cannot advise any person of colour to go out in any of the eastern districts placed further than:
towards the North: Schönhauser Allee
towards the South: Treptow
towards the East: Warschauer Str.
If you move within the center and not venture out further towards the east than the stations mentioned above I am almost certain you will be safe! Unfortunately the people from the East never got the chance to live in an open society and therefore act a bit xenophobic towards people of colour (no, I am not making an excuse for this behaviour, just trying to explain why it really does occur mostly there). Besides this they have a really big problem with unemployment after the unification and blame the foreigners for having taken their jobs. How original. It's always the easiest way out to blame others.

As a big fan of Berlin I can only say, go out there and enjoy the city, it has a lot to offer and don't worry too much, the western part ist anyway nicer!
Greetings,

Have to agree with Major Bummer, there are certain district which you should try to avoid, mosty in the East of the city...

I've been in Berlin since 6 years, and I do look foreign (dark skinned), I've never been attacked (touch wood) but I have experienced racism very often in a hidden way, but I've come close to having a few potenially bad experiences.

One late evening I was going home on the S-Bahn, I got into the train thinking nothing, the train was almost empty except for two other people, of whom I firstly took no notice, until they both got up and started walking towards me, it was then I realised they were Neo-Nazis, luckily the train door had not yet closed and I managed to jump out a split second befor it shut, I dread to think what could have happened to me trapped in carriage alon with 2 Neo-Nazis. Now when I travel in the eving, I always sit in the first compartmen, directly behind the driver.

I've also been spit on, which was, whilst being harmless, very disgusting.

Berlin is a great city, you just got to be careful where you go.

I don't know whether this query will get moved to some other more appropriate thread, but it follows on from the discussion about the weekend's Far Right march in Munich . . . .

Isn't merely "looking" like a Nazi outlawed? Or is it just the display of Nazi emblems?

How anyone gets away with it in modern Germany I don't know.

what does a nazi look like?

Does wearing a bomber jacket and boots make you a nazi? If so youd better arrest half of munichs gay communitiy.

Ban the sales of Lonsdale, Fred Perry, MA1 and all the other stuff. Lets all get back to wolly jumpers and cardigans.

P

Once upon a time, I got called a nazi, then someone said I couldnt be a nazi I smiled too much

Poots

p.s. best ban helly hansen too

Just the display of Nazi emblems

@IrishLassie

So I could goosemarch down MaxiStraße with a little goatee on my top lip, shaven head and bomber boots and not get into trouble?

Hm... good question, shaved head amd bomber Jacket woul be OK, as to your goatee... dunno, I know some schools habe gone grazy by forbidding Clothing with 88 on it, because H is the 8th letter in the alphabet (88 = abbrev. for HH Heil Hitler...) or 18 (for Adolf Hitler)

AFAIK though only the Emblems and Symbols are legally banned.

That'll explain were "Combat 18" got their name.

Anyone dressed like that needs a spanking, or a job.

I't amuses me that these days, if I saw a bunch of skinheads in boots and bomber jackets, I would assume they were gay before they were nazis Ah, how times change.

correct. and an english organisation to begin with but has spread to the states and germany. interwoven with chelsea's original headhunters and the loyalist scene.
went from skins to footy casuals did C18.

Good call. Such an obvious paradox there!

Where's grtho? Please explain this sub-cultural paradox.

isn't it the same as dressing up as a sailor when you are not in the navy?

Well, the guy that attacked me in Berlin - the Neo-Nazi - looked dead normal at first. No combat gear, no boots or bomber jacket. About 17 years old, blond, Mr. Norm. But he had a very fanatic air about him. Approached me with his electro-shocker-thingy going "ich hasse die scheiss Engländer und die scheiss Amerikaner, die mein Land kaputt gemacht haben!" - translation "I hate the bloody Brits and Americans for having ruined my country". Well, I also have to say that three German blokes that overheard this immediately jumped in and told the kid to get lost.. So once again, that should tell you two things:
a) "even" in the East there are many a good fellow to be found
there's an alarming trend in Germany of Neo-Nazis becoming more bourgeois, stepping away from the stupid-mob-cliché, hopping about like "decent fellows", all clad in a two-piece-suit and sprouting sympathy amongst a fair amount of German academics. That's why they are becoming more dangerous than ever. On that sweet note,
MB

Sunday Mirror link

read this in Mum's Sunday Mirror when I was back home over Easter...the original article in the paper had pictures of the Neo Nazi dude from the article all dressed up in his Nazi uniform with a big grin.

was a great film though I have to say.

p.s. I'm not racist I hate everyone.

This is very true. While the hairless lads in the bomber jackets and boots are disturbing and dangerous at least they are visible.

The middleage business men promoting them are the real danger. Nothing to scare the average german, always mows the lawn on a Saturday, no criminal record. Turns up on parish councils, parent teacher groups, concerned citizens against whatever. If you want to do bad stuff, dress respectably. Sad but true.

The scary thing is, that's not the Norm, they had a "Stern TV" Report with hidden Cameras they got a Turkish woman and a couple of lads to stage a rasist attack in broad daylight on a busy street to check how willing people are to help, no-one helped, not on any single occasion, and they did quite a few tests at different locations, it really looked like they guys were beating the crap out of this woman but no one got up to help, the shocking thing was as the reporters questioned the onlookers some of them even said it was right that the woman got beat up because she had no right to be in Germany (This was around Berlin and Potsdam)

There are of course lovely helpful people in the East I've loads of friends in East Berlin and East Germany as a whole.

A similar thing happened to a friend of mine on an Augsburg tram, on a SUNDAY afternoon in BROAD DAYLIGHT.

Some Nazi clocked that she was English and came over and started making suggestions to her, saying at first all that all the English are going to die when we come over for 2006. He then started going on about how easy English girls are, and how he thought he should just fuck her there and then. She said he had his hands all over the place and she kept telling him to get off, and not one person intervened! There were plenty of fellas on the tram too.

She had to wait till Königsplatz where she hit him and ran to the Sicherheitsdienst, who got a hold of him.

I do think Germans, for the most parts, are cowards and willing to place the blame elsewhere. There is a problem.

Sounds like the problem is all over Berlin. It's not like unemployed East German youth with racist views can't jump on public transport and get off in Mitte, Prenzlauer Berg, or Charlottenburg right?

And oh boy will I stand out in Germany. I'm very tall, very tanned, and very Asian.

Oh well, as long as they don't have knives, if it's a fight they want, it's a fight they'll get.

Germans sound like big cowards if you ask me. If that happened anywhere in Hawaii, I can bet everything I own that the locals would have set upon those guys and beaten them half to death. Hawaiians can be pretty violent and protective when they need to be...especially those big crazy Samoans.

I can't believe you got SPIT on. I guess since you're a woman, there is not much you can do. But I'm afraid all hell might break loose if this (or other "hidden" racist things) happens to me.

You still like Berlin after all this?

Thing is that they dont want 'a fight'. They want to do the fighting, they want to pick on those who are weaker than themselves.

@islander wrote

Sounds like Germany needs more Hawaiians! Get yourselves organized Don't worry too much, you'll be fine in Berlin! Just read all these reports and really can't understand how people can not interfere and times like these! Mind boggling.. guess I was lucky back then when those guys stepped in and told that Neo-Nazi to get lost. Unfortunately one also reads many reports of people who do step in to help, get attacked themselves, end up in hospital and the perpetrators - if caught at all - get away with minor punishments. In Germany crimes of violence get punished less severely than crimes aimed at property. A bankrobber gets nailed for 10 years, but a rapist gets 2 years - most likely on probation - or a murderer 8 years..
Maybe that's why your average German cit is slightly wary of jumping in and saving the day.
MB

Most nazis appear in groups, have weapons and may have planned a violent act. The victims are often alone and do not have weapons and do not expect anything bad.

It is more likely that someone intervenes when you are cycling on the wrong side of the street than when you are beaten up by nazis. That's a sad fact here in Germany.

So sad to hear about that Augsburg event.

I would not read too much into people not getting involved it is a part of human nature. Its pure arrogance and ignorance to say that German people are in some way deficient in this area or different to people from other western societies.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers...kitty_genovese/
http://web.utk.edu/~wmorgan/psy470/kitty2.htm

The Kitty Genovese killing is a text book example of something similar it is part of the way people behave in groups.

I found out the original posting was based on the experiences of the author while he lived in Berlin from 1990-1998.

Wonder if things have gotten significantly better over the last 6 years?

okay, I'm not gay, but I'll hazard a guess that the reason that gay men appropriate the dress or clothing of a group that hates them could be down to a form of self defense. By taking the image of a notably masculine group such as skin heads, they remove some of the mystique surrounding that image (ie, they make skinheads feel less powerful because people in the street might now think they're 'poofs') I think that this is why previously Moustaches and Lumberjack shirts were the uniform of choice for gay men. Its a silent fom of attack on a group that dislikes them.

But I could be totally wrong! Grtho?

I have been living in Berlin for a while now and have noticed the increase of visible neo-nazis around my area and when i go shopping,around the zoo area. I personally think these people are cowards. If they want to fight then they should join the armed forces,etc, instead they hide behind ´me and my country and nobody else´attitude. I have pride in my country but i also respect other nations at the same time,if i didn´t then i wouldn´t be in germany now,but there is a fine line between pride and nazism. I think that too much pride in a certain country does then become nazism,as it derives from the same source,´we are superior than anyone attitude´. I notice in germans that they still have that sense of order about them and superiority about their stance even though they failed in two world wars. I have only had one incident in Berlin and that was at the zoo area and was approached by two german lads in their 20´s shouting abuse(i didnt quite understand the words but i knew it was an insult by the body language) so without saying a word smashed one of the lads nose across the pavement. That sharp changed their attitude,and then acting as if i had the problem! I think Berlin is quite tame compared to London and places in America,Russia,etc thats without mentioning uncivilised countries.

it was a UK thing in the early 80s. Political gay men adopted skinhead dress as a way of 'appropriating the garb' of the enemy. Sort of a politcal counter attack thingy. Then it became a sort of fetishistic thing where people on the leather scene started to wear skinhead attire - still do. Got quite confusing for a while.

Now in the UK while gay people still wear a twist on the skinhead stuff (pink fred perry, patent leather doc martens etc etc) really nazi thugs have abandoned it because it makes them look gay - hahahahahaha

no you are absolutely right actually. Though it was actually the SKA scene in UK that did it first - this was antiracist music in the late 70s and early 80s that fused regae with english music and had bands that were black and white. They wore skinhead clothese for the exact puprose you stated above. And then plitical gay men started doing the same.

"The middleage suits". This is what the nazi group backing the U.S. republicans figured out about 40 years ago. I'm not worried about real nazis: those went to america after the war. In comparison, the ones here are retarded.

However, they like to operate in a group AND in an area they feel confident. Mitte or well-established west german berlin areas are less likely stop-offs.

I have seen you, or mabye your cousin j/k. I have definitely seen the same, and people with an asian physical or ethnic background (they are EVERYWHERE, aren't they?) I see them late at night on the ubahn in charlottenburg-berlin, so I figure there must be a community of them there, and they feel (rightly) comfortable taking the ubahn. I also see the ass-kicking tall types. Look at uberbahn.com if you haven't yet traveled to berlin and want to see where it is.
Because of an educational-cultural thing, the nazis attack IN GROUPS. Get them alone and they scatter like roaches.

I read recently that the neo-nazi scene is moving away from the more obvious paraphenalia such as combat boots, skinhead hairstyles, bomberjackets etc. The scene is changing and the trend appears to be towards unsuspicious brandnames that only mean something to those in the know.

This is both good and bad. Rightwingers may now become harder to recognise from clothing alone but the friction within the scene between traditional neonazis and those who want to mix this ideology with other forms of clothing, music etc may help to fragment and weaken it further.

I travel to Berlin often, and I'm very aware of the Skinhead situation. If I saw a Skinhead in combat boots, bomber jacket, and bleached jeans (bleechers) I would assume it was a Gay Skinhead. Real straight Skinheads have moved away from the traditional skinhead gear, and may only be wearing sneakers and a hoody sweatshirt. However, I have met some Gay Skinheads who actually are part of the real neo-nazi movement. Go figure that one out. I'm confused.

We aren't living in Berlin yet (we will be moving over in October) but have been over 7 times since March 2008.
I find this thread interesting - and obviously worrying - as my wife is Japanese and our 2 year old daughter is half-Jap, half-Brit.
Yet, on our visits to P'berg, F'hain and Xberg, where we have been out at pretty much every time of day and night, we haven't encountered any noticeable hostility. In fact, in F'hain, where have spent the most time and will soon be living, we have been impressed with the level of openness and friendliness we have encountered.
Am I missing something, or have we just been lucky - or has the situation improved in the years since this thread was started...?
B

I've never had any real reason to think Berlin is dangerous. I think most of the nazi-types stick to their down-and-out neighbourhood Marzahn. I think years ago Prenzlauer Berg was a little more dangerous, but I think some people exaggerate things here on TT with respect to this issue.

That said, I almost got hit by a flying beer bottle on a drunken walk home one night, but that's because they were throwing it at the police station I was walking by.

@boxer

Berlin is a safe city. Dispel these fears and move here. The people are very open-minded and it is a great city to live in.

You have idiots everywhere. Berlin and Germany in general are relatively very safe.

Before i read this post, i had no idea how bad those skinheads and racism can be. Now, i am a lil bit scared because what you guys said and also what i just experienced few days ago. I've been staying in Berlin nearly 3months already, which i visited it several times before. And i am a Chinese and staying at Marzahn, but nothing has happened so far. I don't know if i am lucky or because i rarely use S bahn and thos public transportation in the night. However, two days ago, a very rude fat guy stamped on my foot before he went out the trame. I stood two steps distance away from him, which it was impossible that he had to stamp on me in order to get out for me. So, i assumed he was on purpose because he didn't even say SORRY and just walked away. But i was too hurting and shocked to shout at him: you ASSHOLE!!!

Carry some mace or pepper spray when traveling alone, especially if traveling or walking alone at night. Just don't spray yourself. I usually do and I will use it even thought I have never had to...fortunately.

It is illegal to spray people.

Good idea, or some chili power...

Even if those people would attack you?

We are a mixed couple too (South Asian and Scandinavian) and just moved here. After looking around for areas to live, Charlottenburg seems to be very safe and cosmopolitan. It is also very quite with leafy streets and good if you have kids.