Paternity tests require mother's consent

A German (chic) friend of mine recently told me that males can no longer request a paternity test without the consent of the mother. Basically this means you're screwed with child support whether or not it's your noodles that did the deed. David Blunkett would be right out for example (say that with a Graham Chapman voice).
Discuss !

And a mother cannot get a test without the father's permission. However, both sides can sue for it. What's the big deal?

Grumpy today, sorry.

Not quite.
Süddeutsche article
The Bundesgerichthof decided in two cases in January that secret paternity tests (i.e. without the consent of both parents) were not admissable in paternity suits.
Why?
Because it is an breach of "personnelle Selbstbestimmung" (Grundgesetz articles 1 & 2), the right of the child to choose whether to find out or not and also due to the individual nature of DNA, it is a privacy issue. This supercedes that of the father to know.
So, what happens now?
Someone who disputes patenity can still go to court and fight a paternity suit if concrete grounds are available to do so.
A secret test or not looking like the child in question are not permissable.
And a refusal from the mother to allow the test cannot also be used as a reason to dispute paternity.
Proof (photos, admissions from a third party, etc) of the other person having had an affair at the time of conception is admissable.

A source with some more info on the story...

Not fair on the bloke, especially if its not certain its his

@ DDBug...
One would have thought that the mother's presence at the birth would have been proof of maternity. Actually now that I think about it didn't Mick Jagger deny any liability to his kid with Luciana Morad ? What jurisdiction are you referring to ?

@ Katrina
Thanks for that...right of the child whether or not to find out ? Thats a bit stupid huh ? Who doesnt wanna know if their real Dad is their biological parent ? Surely that's the rights of the adoptive parents to hoodwink/conceal the truth from the kid ???

Not looking like the kid is not permissible ... thats hilarious... so if the kid is of a different race you don't get shit ?
Refusal from the mother to allow test not grounds ??? Does she have to wash her hair ?
WHAT A FUCKIN COUNTRY ???

just seen this thread. posted the same answer as Katrina on the abortion thread.

It isn't fair on the kid from either side.
Just think about that bit - your mother might be lying about who your dad is and your dad isn't sure either but doesn't want to pay for you just in case?
That ain't good.
Yes, the kid having a completely different skin colour or ginger hair or a huge Roman nose isn't admissable.
There is also the point of reducing the role of the father and mother to a purely biological one. Which is pretty scary frankly.

Yes I read about this recently. Whilst I can understand the reasoning behind the decision I nonetheless think it's absolutely ridiculous. A Father is as much a child's parent as a Mother. The child shares exactly half of his genes! Why, then, should the Father have to ask the Mother for permission to carry out a paternity test? Paternity tests don't harm the child in any way! A Paternity test provides nothing more than clarification.

I'd say this is just a sneaky way for the German Social System to cut down on child support payments.

(And before I get any backlash with comments like "Aaaw you blokes just don't wanna pay" etc. I'd just like to note that I am a FEMALE!)

The best solution is for a couple to not have the problem in the first place of course. But life doesn't always work along best solutions.
I can see the courts point in some respects.
Imagine you're a kiddy and daddy comes and takes you to the park and MaccyD's once a week. Then he stops coming and you don't know why.
That's the emotional end of a decision made due to a biological fact.
Of course, having a mother who doesn't know/doesn't tell you the truth isn't exactly fabulous either (to put it mildly).
Wonder if sales of secret spy cameras, bugs and the like have gone up?

Maybe there's something I don't get, but why not make paternity tests obligatory in these cases?

Well, this was a very interesting story for me because I have a work colleague who is in this exact situation. His (now ex-)girlfriend is due any day now and she keeps saying that he is the father of this little girl. However he dumped her because he found out(she admitted) that she was fooling around with not one, but two other guys at about the same time. While he has done the honorable(?) thing in supporting her(sometimes financially, mostly emotionally - she is a wack) during her pregnancy, he has said repeatedly that he will demand a paternity test. He stands to lose a lot. He has his own business and does quite well financially. She, on the other hand, can't hold down a job and is not emotionally stable( a personality disorder at that very least). It scares me for him to think that she may be able to say that she won't allow a paternity test and declares him the father although he has serious doubts.

if he can prove that she was fooling around, then he can demand a paternity test, then - no?
that's the way I read the suedeutsche article, anyway

@Katrina

Huh ? Whatever happened to the truth ? This is hilarious... a woman can terminate a sprog if she doesnt wanna have it but the poor sperm donor is completely fucked even after the birth now ???

i do realise that its not even the sperm donor who's fucked but the guy who thought he was...

To hell in a handbag... Germany's a laugh isnt it ?

How exactly do you do that? If I were the woman in this situation and I'm not a nice honest person and want to screw someone over then I would 'Deny, Deny, Deny'

this whole subject is an emotional minefield. i personaly dont have a clue what's right and wrong in this matter, but i do worry about the fact that the courts seem to regard the dad's or not-dad's emotional well being as secondary. it must be hell to wake up every day and think that the kids you are providing both economicly and emotionaly might not be yours geneticly. it must be hell to be the guy described by kitkat.

Keep your receipts (and hers as well) seems to be the policy parnell.
The well-being of the child is seen by the courts to override the well-being of the father.
And yes, it is an absolute minefield.

which ones? the condom reciepts from the apotheke?

Aye gideon, those ones. Will men now offer to do the washing so that they can go through their women's pockets looking for restaurant match books or receipts for sexy underwear as yet unseen?

it says in the Sueddeutsche clip that Katrina linked to:

what a sad turn up for the books that is.
we men used just want to get our hands in a girls's nickers, and now we have to do the pockets too!

sorry more seriously, katrina, i understand the cocept of the well-being of the child being paramount. but that is always in such cases entwined with the financial well-being and untruthful intentions of the mother. the courts are de facto taking the motherside although de jure they are proclaim and protecting the rights of the child.

Going to court to force a clarification of paternity is a big step and not one to be taken lightly. You'd need quite significant evidence of her away games to get that far.
That's a lot of mud to be found and slung.
Which doesn't help the child either.
Will sales of paper shredders go through the roof?

Plus the rights of fathers are seriously overlooked as well. We tend to get a raw deal whatever the case.

This demonization of paternity tests, whether they are “secret� or not, is absurd and regressive – why not have women prove that they were raped in order to allow them to have an abortion all over again?!

As I said, make paternity tests obligatory as it will clear up everything up scientifically. If the alleged father is actually the father, great. If not however, it shouldn’t be too difficult (and therefore traumatizing for the child) to find out who he really is. With a bit of luck the mother should have some idea of who she’s slept with over the last nine months, right?...

@Katrina
If you force people to have a paternity test from the get-go there's no need for any mudslinging, is there?

All animals are equal but some are more equal than others.

Equality ? Laughable.

I'm just pointing out the legalese of the current legal position. Would also rather have the clarity.
But who decides when it is necessary?
Only for the unmarried? Only in disputes? For all regardless just in case?
I don't know.
The estimated rate of "Kuckkuckskinder" ("cuckoo kids") is apparently 1 in 10 live births in Germany. That's about 70 000 a year.
So it isn't an insignifcant problem.
And there's even that IKEA ad where the woman lies in bed and denies a man his paternity just to stop him saying where the furniture is from.
A funny ad but that's a serious issue.

Of course


If you're cheating on someone you're scum.

If you're cheating on someone and you get pregnant then it's your fault and yours alone , if you're additionally forcing/trying to force your partner to suffer because of what you've done then you are beneath contempt and less than an animal.

Only in such a rich society would be have such inequity tolerated.

Just deny you've ever met her... She got your random name and address from your door bell coz you lived in a nice part of town. happens all the time.

I feel, just my personal feeling here, that if there is any question of paternity, all parties in question should have to submit for a DNA test, and see who the father is. Its only fair to the child! The mother has to face up to her lying cheating ways. Its not just about child support, its about biology here! The child has a right to know, who his biological father is - genes form who we are!

Cannot believe that the german courts actually made laws about this! We are dealing with humans and emotions here, you cannot make that a law, every case has to be evaluated seperately.

He seems to be handling it quite well. He said he will 'cross that bridge when he comes to it' - meaning he'll deal with the situation once he gets the tests done. She keeps saying stuff to him like 'won't it be great to take your daughter to the zoo?' etc. He keeps saying 'we'll see'. I give him a lot of credit for handling it as well as he has. I hope, for him, that the baby is not his.

What I meant way earlier in this thread (before my meeting) was that a mother cannot simply take the "fathers" hair out of his hairbrush and get a parternity test to prove he's the father and make him pay child support - she needs the legal backing as well. So it does in a way go both ways as I see it.

exactly - so in the case that you mentioned, kitkat64, the guy is entitled to a test... so what's the problem?

@ Carm
Courts do not make laws , legislators do i.e. politicians.

In this case its the (female) SPD Justice minister Brigitte Zypries...check Jules' link for a picture of this sweetheart.

The guy that kitkat64 knows should really either get her to admit the cheating in front of witnesses, or on paper with signature (also witnessed) or find the people who she cheated with.
Because if he can't prove it, she can still deny her dalliances and if the court does not rule in the guy's favour, well...

Hang on...doesn't she have to prove that he's the father, if he says he isn't? I mean, if this goes to court, both sides have to provide proof of their claims, don't they?

No she doesn't per se. But there are rules.
Bonn City Hall's guide

The legal mother of a child is the birth mother.
The legal father of a child is either
1. the man who was married to the mother at the time of the child's birth or
2. the man who has said that he is the father or
3. the man who has been deigned to be the father by the courts
If the father is unclear, the space for the name under "Vater" is left blank and can be added later.
Only the designated father, mother and child can fight patenity suits.
So if someone has already said that they are the father, even if you are the real biological one, the other man must give up his fathership (is that a real word?) and the mother or child can then add the other man to the birth certificate.
Likewise, if a father dies, then his parents cannot then dispute the paternity of a child that was accepted during the life of the father.
Actually if the man dies just after the birth of the child, it gets really complicated.
Munich Standesamt info
This is the legal point (moral point is something different).
The main issues with paternity tests is for those children who have been accepted by a father who is on the birth certificate who then later has doubts about his paternity.

It will be easy for her to proof that hey had a relation 9 month before as it was their official relationship.

- Before the birth, a man should be able to deny being the father. In such case, DNA test should be the only way. Having to prove multiple relationships is ridiculous.

- In case a woman does not want to recognise that a man is the father, A DNA test should be made.

- After the birth, If the man have recognized the baby as his, he should continue to have some responsabilities whatever a DNA test says.
It is like agreeing to adopt a child with a woman; after the adoption, you can learn that she cheated but you still have responsabilities for the baby/kid.

Men should be responsible of their sperm and more.

Interesting, thanks. How does the court decide who the father is, if paternity is disputed? Can the court order a paternity test to resolve the question?

The Familiengericht can if enough grounds (see higher in the thread) permit it.
Jugendamt Nürnberg's guide to fathers' duties and rights
Government PDF on the topic

I'll keep you posted on the outcome - we(my colleagues and I) think the baby is being born at this very minute because my friend(co-worker) isn't here today and no one has heard from him. The baby is two days overdue.

He has said all along that he wants a test done as soon as the kid is born

That kid is screwed...you can get away with a lousy Dad but a lousy Mum...

Can we stop referring to women with multiple partners as "cheaters"? It's not necessarily so. Some people happily participate in open relationships with the full knowledge of everyone involved.

As for the dilemma of identifying a biological father, I've often wondered about the fairness of assigning responsibility for a child solely on DNA evidence. Let's say the mother was having relations with two men in the same time period and then got pregnant. Either one of them might as well be the father, right? Is it fair to the guy who is proven to be the biological father that the other candidate is off the hook, having enjoyed the benefits of sex without suffering the consequences?

Mind you, I'm not necessarily proposing that in such a case both men should have to pay up or whatever. I just think it would be hard luck to have drawn the short straw. This is all assuming that neither of the men would want to be the father, of course.

Or what about this situation, where a pair of twins have 2 different fathers.

IMHO this law is stupid and insulting to men and children alike. It simply boggles the mind really.

I wonder what are all the loopholes: ex..

1. If you're a female in need of child support, lets say the real father is out of the picture, perhaps he's just poor or maybe you don't *exactly* know who the father is you could *claim* to have had drunken sex or even worse been date raped by a man with means. Either that or maybe your boss got you preggers after hours. Hmm..As long as the situation could have been possible and/or you can get a mate to back up your story you've got a decent shot of winning?

2. If you're a man finding yourself the *legal father* of the kid, what are the loopholes through the courts:
a. if its a one night stand sure, you can't go after the DNA test but you could get some dr. bloke to say you have a low sperm count. I'm sure there's sketchy docs out there that would write it up for a fee. If not in Germany than some other country...would that be a stalemate then...would she either have to agree to the paternity test OR would the courts try and force the bloke to have another sperm test in Germany. It would be something for the bloke to tie the courts up in some sort of right to sperm privacy suit. Why the hell not.
b. petition for custody..hard in germany unless you could "prove" mental instability or something of that nature? You could then countersue her for child suppport.
c. Or better yet, if the kid is *obviously* not yours, i.e. your both white and the baby is black could you counter sue her for fraud? while continuing to pay for child support? I mean the kids appearance is not admissable in a paternity hearing, fair enough but how about a fraud hearing?

This law bites. Oh and for the record, IMHO having an active sex life with whomever or whatever circumstances doesn't make you a skank...your body, your life, your choice. However, taking unfair advantage of this law, i.e. knowingly scamming some bloke for money, makes you a twat. understatement.

Please "stop" ? You are the only one who mentioned this situation ...others specifically made reference to the occurrence of an "extra" relationship which was being denied/not disclosed by the mother (to be). I have to say it's more than a little far from the norm.

I'm chill with women (and men) doing what they like with their bodies so long as they don't hurt others. That's the line fer me.

The question is raising its Janus head yet once again. Today the Federal Constitutional Court (Bundesverfassungsgericht, BVG) will fell its verdict under the constitutional aspects: Protection of the child's right to confidential treatment of its personal information against the father's right to know if the child is his or not. See today's Süddeutsche Zeitung. (German link)
Let's get this straight: Any man can contest his paternity if he has a reasonable doubt - such as different race, misfitting blood groups or the mother's admission to multiple sex partners. But up to now he cannot base his suit on a secret test. In a paternity suit the court has the possibility of ordering a DNA test if other evidence is not sufficient, both sides (yes, sometimes the mother claims that someone else is the father and goes to court to prove it!) can appeal this decision.
Fathers going down this route, however, have to see the full consequences of their action. In most cases they have spent several years in close contact with the child they considered theirs, at least for a while. If the test is negative the father loses all rights towards the child. If the test is positive he has seriously damaged the relationship with the child and its mother.
Baden-Wurttemberg has submitted a proposal to the Bundestag to create a law permitting secret DNA tests. The repercussions of such a law, however, would be immense: For example, insurances could test applicants' DNA and refuse coverage due to genetic disorders; employers could test their employees for potential risks as well; police and other authorities could create a huge data base on the whole populace. So today's verdict is not just about one man's quest for the truth, it's about all of us being protected from abuse of science for private means.

Only if an insurance company could access/have rights to that information , which I'm pretty sure under most jurisdictions is against the law.

This isn't just about paternity issues, it's about secret DNA tests for whatever reason you can think of. As you say, up to now they are against the law; today's verdict will be decisive regarding the legality of any secret testing.

AFAIK paternity test can't be done before the little one is 6 months old, as in that is the earliest time it is possible to do a DNA test.

Including secret drug testing - of adults, but also of minors ?