Attitudes to gay families with kids

Hi Folks,

The irony of this post does not escape me.

Here I am in the U.S. a lesbian (and U.S citizen) with a partner for more than 20 years and two young adopted children who are not the same race as my partner and I.

OK, so I am thinking, the situation in the U.S. is getting pretty hostile for us. Not to mention healthcare is very expensive and the job market sucks.

Why not look back at the old country? A few Google queries later, it is clear that I could become a German citizen given my family's from Germany but most likely had their citzenship stripped between 1933 and 1945 because they were Jews.

Then I think, ok, that means my partner could get healthcare in some countries...it looks like Germany would even offer a kind of domestic partnership. And Munich, why not? It seemed a pretty hip place when I visited many years ago.

So, reverse immigration? Hmmm, interesting. Now lets get real. Going back to Germany, a lesbian family with two kids (five and six years old) going to school... mixed race family... are there any communities in or around Munich cool enough to deal with that?

AND what about the job market, would a Yankee with nearly 30 solid years business marketing experience get anywhere? I’ve brought many foreign companies into the U.S. market. My German is rough at best, hell, am I dreaming here?

Is it time for me to get reacquainted with red cabbage? Or should I give up the notion right now?

I don't think you would have a significant problem with acceptance, there's a hotch potch of people here. You'll probably feel more at home living towards the center of town, but most of us do that anyway.
There were some posts in the last couple of weeks from people with German heritage discussing the hows and whys of their getting a German passport, so do a search on that.
And start improving your German now.

Interesting. Where are you in the US? Do you mean hostile on the official level or on the level of peoples reactions day to day?

No idea if things will be much better here or not. I would like to think so. The local bavarians are still a bit conservative when it comes to things like this. Also families are a bit regulated here, how much tax you pay, and how much family support money (yes even rich people get money for having kids in the german system!) all depends on what category you fit into on a form. And things dont seem to go as smoothly on the official level for non-traditional families. It wouldnt surprise me if your family is an issue as far as the paperwork goes.

Check with an immigration lawyer.

As far as day to day reactions from everyday people goes, well it will be mixed. If you stick to a larger city like munich, and hang out with the expats you will be fine. The little mountain villages arent ready for you yet.

Kza's probably right about the paperwork thing. There was a discussion on here awhile ago about how kids born out of wedlock can't even have automatic property rights and must be added onto a will or some such thing. I doubt that Müncheners would be any worse as far as discrimination goes, but I doubt they'd be any better, either. Like Topsy said, urban areas are better, but I guess that goes for just about anywhere.

Your profile says NYC, but I'm guessing that if you're having problems, you probably live outside the city? In my experience New Yorkers are pretty tolerant. My brother-in-law's cousin and his partner are gay amd have an adopted son, and as far as I can tell, they're perfectly happy there. They even found a catholic school for their son to attend that's comfortable with their family situation. They're a couple of regular PTA moms.

Have you ever considered moving to California? It seems to me like it's the most accepting place (in the States) in this regard. I have lots of gay/lesbian friends back home in California who've never had any problems whatsoever and are quite happy there...and not just in San Francisco.

As for the job situation, it's likely worse over here. The unemployment rate has recently reached 10% and, I think, is still rising.

Hey there Debplume

While I understand and sympathise with your plight, I think you should think things through a bit more carefully. People might accept you and your family, but are you ready to accept German culture and mindset? Have you been to Germany? I would suggest you come for a couple of weeks and "live" here, rather than tourist it and see how you get along. Remember if you do move here, unless you got an extra 10 000 Euros kicking around, your kids will be going to a German school, which means although they will have it tough at first, they will eventually integrate quicker than you do. That might be a bit of a funny feeling, having "German" kids.

I would think things through very carefully before moving and do a couple of exploratory trips first as well. Also, as Interplanetjanet suggested, perhaps check out some other options like California or Canada.

I just wanted to echo what was said before about the acceptance side of things. If you stay central you'll have no problem. There is two lesbian couples with kids at the pre-school I take my daughter to. No-body bats an eyelid. And by central I don't mean you'll be living in a urban jungle. Munich is very green.

Can only echo everyone else's comments about acceptance, and add that even in the suburbs my experience shows that there were no major problems. I used to babysit for a lesbian couple who had a son (he was the biological son of one of the women, conceived by IVF as far as I know). One of the women was german, the other american. They lived in Wolfratshausen, which is outside of munich and one of the more "conservative" areas. However, as I say, they went to one of the baby groups in the area etc and never had any problems...

I have to give you my honest opinion and strongly recommend against moving to Germany at this time. You should instead sit down and think seriously about why you want to move to Germany. If it's just a simple matter of acceptance, then there are many places in the states that are open to gay families. Perhaps you should investigate that possiblity first before moving to Germany. You have the language thing first of all. Unless you speak really good German or can learn very quickly, you will have a hard time adapting. In addition to the language, you also have a different culture and mindset to deal with. The economy in Germany is really bad at present. The unemployment level is somewhere near 10% and even higher in the east. Yes everyone here has healthcare but it's not free. You pay a certain percentage and your employer pays a certain percentage. Generally the more you earn, the more you have to pay. If you earn more than 48,000 euros per year, you are eligible for private health care insurance which is cheaper and better. Unless you have a job lined up and waiting for you, you will have a really hard time finding work. Munich is typical of big cities anywhere in the world including America. The people are generally more tolerant of gays and lesbians than the countryside but you have to weigh that against uprooting your kids from their lives in America and transplanting them to another country that speaks a different language, has a different culture and different ways of doing things. As I said, think long and hard about this and investigate the other alternatives first. Good Luck!

Hey folks, thank you all for your honest replies. Yes, I've been to Germany, like the German culture and feel comfortable in it and really have a childhood/family understanding of the German language (not good enough for biz by any stretch). When I was a kid I lived in other places in Europe for a while and went to public schools, the culture change was a great experience and one of the happiest times of my life -- of course my family was straight.

I live in a fairly tolerant community but I'm tired of the fight, of George Bush and of all the political invective. Running away, trying something new – it’s that secret wish -- but I'm not "single" any more, so I have to think of my family first.

On the job front I hear you loud and clear, I won't even consider it! I can't imagine 10% unemployment, but at least, I get the impression anyway, that you have a much better safety net then we do so perhaps you don't feel the 10% as severely as you would if you didn't. Are there people sleeping on the streets? Are the lines at the soup kitchens getting longer? (That’s what we’re seeing here.)

Thanks too for the insight into the "paperwork" for unusual families. That is really interesting – and when I thought about it, given the German culture to be expected! Myexpectations there are duly tempered!

All in all, I think my strategy will be to attempt to get my citizenship as a foothold in the EU and explore all the options from there. Bottom line? It will make doing business in the EU a little easier even if I never choose to move there for an extended period.

BTW this is a terrific board! Really enjoyed reading yours and other posts.

I work for GE (Insurance Solutions) here - and I know they are not alone - quite a few companies in Munich conduct ALL business in English - so if others here can chip in with some names here - there are defintie opportunities in English.

this thread is a good place to start for english-speaking companies

Have you seriouly thought about going north accross the boarder to Canada? Jobs are available, gays are allowed to marry in most provinces and the kids will speak the same language in school ... and best of all NO BUSH!

Don't forget, that 10% unemployment in Munich is one of the LOWEST in the country. LOWEST. That means everywhere else is HIGHER. Yes, there have been lines at the soup kitchens for years. Yes, there have been homeless people under the bridge for years. Nobody in Germany has to be homeless, the social net is there, but you're not going to get much from the state unless you've paid in a bit already, and as a new immigrant -- even if you change your citizenship from US to German -- you still haven't paid in. (I don't think the DE citizenship is of any advantage to you over a US citizenship anyway. Not even if you're starting your own business -- I just did, and citizenship doesn't matter.) I don't know if you're entitled to anything welfare-wise until you've sold off all your possessions and used the capital for your food. Don't know if anyone on the board has dealt with Hartz IV? Probably not, or they wouldn't be on the board anymore (having sold their computer for food).

Did anyone on the board move here for political reasons or did we all come for: education planning to leave again and developed local loved ones so haven't left yet (me), or a job when the jobs were going well, or for a loved one we'd met somewhere else? coulda sworn there was a survey about this somewhere...

You still haven't told us exactly where you're from that you're having problems. Inquiring minds and all. I'm with those who suggest moving to a bigger city within the US. Putting your family first, you shouldn't even think of coming somewhere where the rest of them don't speak the language and where your spouse will be a trailer, unless the spouse is at least equally enthusiastic about the idea. Both of you have to sell the idea to the kids. Someone from Philadelphia was posting about that maybe two months ago...

I would look at the issues of citizenship and relocation separately.

I think getting a second passport is probably a sensible choice. As an EU citizen you never need a visa
if you want to work/study/live in Europe. Some EU countries are very liberal on gay/lesbian issues, notably, the Netherlands, Denmark and Spain. In recent years, there have been major improvements in the UK and Germany, too.

Relocating to a different country is a big step if you have children. Obviously, much depends on your situation. Growing up bilingual could be a huge advantageous to your children. Typically education (including higher education) is cheaper in most EU countries and sometimes completely free. Children can often adapt much faster. However, many children are unhappy if they are removed from their circle of friends and such a decision should not be taken lightly.

If I can add my bit, I can't see problems with acceptance living in the city. Suburbs can be more conservative. But I'd recommend looking into the school system - lots of info on this forum. Maybe the mods or those more talented than I can add some links for you.