Should I choose Germany or my woman?

Greetings Toytown Germany Community:

As you have probably noticed, this is my first-ever post here. I have been a lurker here for a long time, but I just finally decided to register.

Perhaps I should give some background on myself:

-I am a 29-year-old American
-I am an Army-brat who lived in Berlin from 1989-1991
-I fell in love with the country during that time (ages 9-11)
-I started learning German in high school in 1994 (AP German, etc.)
-I took "Business German" as my minor at Georgia Tech, and this included taking a summer business German course at the Heinrich Heine Universität in 1999
-I have traveled to Germany either for vacation or business reasons on at least a yearly basis from 1995-present (sometimes 2 or 3 times per year)
-Since 2003, I have been employed by a German institution in the USA (currently Washington, DC)
-In summation, I have more or less been involved with Germany/German people/German culture for 20 years

What does all this mean?

-I love the country
-I love the German people
-I love the culture
-I have made many friends there and continue to make German friends through local meet-up groups and/or through interns who work where I work
-It is not just the big things I love. It is the little things/the details as well. (I could make a long list here.)
-I frankly feel more at home in Germany than I do in the USA.

Where is the woman in all of this?

-I have been dating / in love with a woman for over four years
-We are best friends as well
-She loves me for all that I am, faults and all
-We have great, open, and honest communication
-She is half-German, her father being born in Mainz, Germany
-She is ten years my senior / is even better educated / is also gainfully employed / also financially stable and independent
-She is fun...among other things knows how to play the guitar, bass guitar, drums...exposes me to all sorts of things that I would otherwise not do
-We like each other's friends and have mutual friends
-She has even taken three semesters of German at the local Goethe-Institut to begin learning the language
-While she loves to travel, she has spent only two days in Germany (Berlin). We hope to have a longer vacation there later this summer

What is the problem?

-I need to make a decision soon, for both of our sakes, to take our relationship to marriage or not
-While she is open to living abroad someday, it is not as pressing for her as it for me
-In the near term, she would prefer to move back to California where she was born to be closer to her mother and brothers
-I am quite simply torn between my love for her and my love for a country
-While I haven't tried hard enough, I have always looked for a "way in" to live and work in Germany (not easy given the present financial crisis)
-Because of the crisis, I have thought about getting my Masters at a German Universität as a "way in" (could probably cheaper than getting one in the USA)
-But of course the "Universität" option is pretty much a polar opposite concept to getting married

So this is my difficult situation...my difficult question...my life at a crossroads.

I am just laying all of this out here in hopes that maybe someone on this forum has been in a similar situation before and share his or her wisdom with me.

I would be very appreciative.

Thank you.

-Holzmann

When it comes to hard decisions like that, I alway try to figure out which way my heart leans, and which my head.

The heart is always right.. Or Bauchgefühl or whatever..

It's sounds to me like your heart wants to go to Germany, and your head says "what about my girlfriend?".. If that's really the case, she's already lost, so just accept it and plan the move.

Don't teach TEFL though. Pay sucks and there are already too many of us...

Why is studying and marriage mutually exclusive?

I suppose she may have problems getting a job here (I assume she hasn't had as much exposure to the country, language as you?) but if she's so much better qualified than you maybe she can also be 'financially stable' while you study?

Or perhaps you could just wait it out for a few years while she gets her spirit back in California, since you say that moving over isn't that pressing yet and since that's more practical for you at the moment anyway?

What I am hearing is that, after 4 years, you are not ready to commit to either scenario - marriage or Germany.

How does she feel?

So was she 14 or 15 when you first met her, at the age of, erm... 25?

Go with your gut feeling. Looking back to the various decisions I made by head instead of instinct they were invariably wrong. You'll always vaguely regret not following the other option but in all probability you'll be better off with the decision you made.

EDIT: KW, she's his senior, i.e. older.

FAIL

oops

Come on over, there are plenty of new Women waiting for you in Germany...

She's not up for it is she? She's nearly 40. She has a stable life in one of the world's great cities. Her Plan B is going to another one of the world's most affluent and attractive places (California). Strangely she is not attracted by the idea of following a much younger student male so he can indulge his dreams whilst also being a student (aged nearly 30), scrimping away in a country he (I assume) has no legal right to work in, and may well find it hard to set up a rock solid life. Can't think why!

Sounds like she at least is being clear and decisive. Now it's your turn to do the same. Time to be a man - not relying on a bunch of random strangers!

To reassure you, whatever happens life goes on. Even if she followed you, or you stayed, no guarantee it'd last forever (and the pressures of immigration on couples can often be vast). I came here for a German man. It didn't work. But I'm still here, alive, well, happy.

Wow! What a decision.

In my position and in my age, I'd pick the woman. But of course that's easier said than done. It requires that you move beyond a certain age/stage where ego obsessions such as passion for a country (or company or a job or a hobby) are fading and becoming second or third priority.

Maybe ask yourself if you already reached that stage. If that's not the case, pick the country. I think you cannot really skip the ego/exploration phase, you'll be longing for something forever. Or worse, even blame your partner for getting into the way of realizing your dreams. No one wins here.

Hope that helps.

I came here for a German woman, we split up, now I don't know what the fuck i'm doing here.

Ok ok, my mistake.

If you really love her dude being with her is the most important thing isn't it? I know a lot of people that have ended up here because of that reason...

Couldn't you both come here for a long holiday (like 3 - 6 months, with jobs, apartment etc) and then she can she if she likes it... And she'll further her german skills at the same time.

But saying that, if she wants to live nearer her mother and brothers I don't think she'll want to emigrate to Germany anyway will she...

Jesus dude its California not like its Weiden. Enjoy the perks besides California is full of Germans Klinsmann lives there, it has an Austrian govenor. You have the best of both worlds.

Damn, that's harsh.

Actually swimmer makes a good point. Perhaps she is not as flexible as you. Also depends on how broken up you'd be about
breaking up with her, and how you fancy finding a German woman

Why did you highlight this?

If you truly loved her, then it wouldn't matter what country you were living in, as long as you were together. Once you've decided you want to be together, only then do you start looking at the economics of the situation, where you both as a unit can be more comfortable financially and emotionally.

Seems like you aren't all that strongly committed to being with your girlfriend for the rest of your life. Otherwise you wouldn't even be asking us this question.

Really, good question. I was asking myself the same question. My situation is sort of similar in that I am 6 years senior to my husband and had a great job in Boston with a stable life. He had to go back to Germany from the U.S. and he said "Do you want to come with me?". I said "Why not?" I always thought "if it doesn't work out,I can always go back". I have a great job here and a good lifestyle. Of course, my husband (who was only my boyfriend at the time) wasn't exactly asking me to support him while he went back to college in a completely different country.

Follow your heart. If you choose the girl over the country, the country will wait for you. If you choose the country over the girl, will the girl wait for you? Probably not.

Exactly. Silicon Valley is loaded with Germans, and the sun actually shines here. I went to Germany "for my man", and I hated it. We've got more German (FROM Germany) friends here than we did in HH!

10 years older... sounds like you've got issues with that, since you highlighted it. Time to scheit or get off the pot. Her biological clock is ticking. Can't you hear it? Let someone else (less flighty) father her children.

Just to clarify, I am NOT a student prresently. But I only have a Bachelor of Science, and so a MS/MBA probably should be on the horizon.

As for kids, neither of us has a strong desire for them. If they were to happen, we would be responsible, good parents. But otherwise, we're fine owning a dog and a cat.

I am really torn here. One day my instinct/heart tells me one thing. The next day it is something else. Usually I am quite decisive in life, but this is also a tough nut to crack.

Finally, I should probably mention that she is my first long-term relationship.

You have a pretty good thing going on with this woman, plus Germany isn't a sure thing for you. Given what you posted, I would suggest staying with her. You can always vacation here.

choose germany. love comes and goes.

cliche statement - if you look back on your life when you're old, will you have always wished you came here, or always wished you never let that girl go?

silly statement but sometimes helps.

I probably wouldn't have while I still single but now I completely agree with this post.

If the relationship is right, you'll move heaven and earth to make it work but most of the time you won't have to because you'll want the same things anyway, at least when it comes to the things that actually matter.

Flip a coin. If you don't want to go by the results, then don't. Really, only you can make this decision. You can pick the woman and in 5 years regret it. You can pick Germany and in 5 years regret it.

I have made so many decisions in my life that I can now look back on and say "If I'd only known.." but of course some of them have worked out as well. Since you can't know the future, you have to follow what you think is right and nobody else can tell you what that is.

Love does not come and go. If you are in love you can't live without that person, period, it's not even an option.

But only one of these can be rectified.

I was faced with a similar decision once: city/country/continent vs. girl. Long distance relationship, obviously. I was killing myself over what to do. And then we took a trip together to a neutral spot. She had to leave to go to pressing engagements back home in the US and I had all the time in the world to mosey along, see new things, meet new people, do what I like to do, etc. I lasted about an hour before I got my sorry ass on a bus home to start making plans for my move. I didn't want to see anything new without her. Everything changed at that moment, even though it wasn't that moment that changed anything. I can't remember her name, but I thought that story might help.

[sub]Edit: We're actually engaged now, and living fairly close to the place I didn't want to leave. Weird, this life.[/sub]

...according to Arnie, affluent it ain't!! Fiscal state of emergency

it depends. at first there may be difficult but after a while you can get over it. people broke up every day, as far as I undestood she's 10 years older. (40 I guess). He should look for a younger girl to fall in love.

Holzman, can you post a pic of her body here and will let you know if she is easily replaceable in Germany or not.
Personally I think that you think too much. You are really gonna have to learn to go with the flow and roll with
the punches. And besides who needs an intelligent woman - are they any use to anybody?
Get yourself a dumb bitch pdq.

I guess you have to ask yourself what would happen if you pick the girl and whether or not you would end up resenting her a few years down the line and subsequently spoiling the relationship? I should say that if you really do love her, and she has said that she is open to the possiblity of living abroad in future, then it's a no-brainer and you would be happy to wait. I think the dilemna that you have tends to imply to me that perhaps you are not quite as into the girl as you feel you should be. How long have you felt like this? Do you think you are just having "a moment"?

I wouldn't kick away a great relationship to do this, especially if I was lucky enough to be with someone that had adventure in her as well. Germany will still be here in 2 years (probably).

Are you sure about this? My personal experience is different. I got married very young and we were both students at that time. We spent equal amounts of time living in Australia and Germany for about 8 years before we settled in Germany, due to job offers we couldn't resist. Personally I wouldn't like to miss the time we had being married while we were still at University. I also think it is possible to work and do your masters at the same time. Maybe you should try and research this option.

I'd always say "follow your dream" because you will regret it if you don't, and you're still young enough to achieve it. Even with the best will in the world, a relationship is far more likely to fail than a dream is likely to die. People invariably regret having missed an opportunity to achieve their dream. Past relationships can fade into memory far more quickly. You are also far more likely to find a new relationship than you are to find a new dream. And your connection and feelings for Germany are far deeper than for your partner, it seems to me. If this was the love of your life then you wouldn't even be asking the question.

And, of course, if you are the love of her life then she will either follow you to Germany or do everything she can to maintain contact and visit as often as possible. If she just says, "OK, was nice knowing you," then you've probably made the right decision to opt out!

I totally agree with your last sentence.

I really can not add anything that has not already been said, But IMHO just to add my $.02 look at the following w/r/t German woman & relationships.

Kissing German girl

Are German women sexy?

Dating German women

Make a decision one way or another and accept the fact that you cannot know what the outcome will be until long after the fact!

Fannying around unable to decide for any length of time will wreck your relationship and other aspects of your life too so it is better make a decision one way or another and get on with your life.

That you have to ask the question is answer enough.
You are missing your mother.

Good idea! Flip a coin, and then see how you feel about the result. That will tell you all you need to know.

Like others have already said, it seems from your post that you're not really feeling this relationship (noting her age in bold, for example). And like leisure suit larry said, if you feel the need to go through the exploration phase by moving over here, by all means do it.

My first instinct was to tell you to go for love above all else, but it doesn't seem like that's the right suggestion in this case.

I chose the German guy, but was and am damn miserable in this country due to the unbelievably crap weather (yeah, yeah, you have all heared about this 1000 times) and the lack of fresh fruits, vegetables and fish. So it really is hard. I would have dearly missed him had I gone back, would have thought about him every single day probably, but after a while I would have got over it. I can't get over the weather here though. In comparison to my peers who all stayed home, I am poor and a financial failure. The clima here really doesn't suit me. Horrible. Why on earth would you trade California for this? Economically you also won't really have a chance over here, given your qualifications. A Bsc will help you nothing. I think if you ask her to give up her good job to come over here at the moment, you will be sacrificing her career too! She will probably get a menial job here and really regret the move. Perhaps she starts to resent you for this, which puts pressure on a relationship which is going to be challenged by the move, I can tell you that. If she is older than you it will be harder for her to find something good in California if you both saw that things aren't working out here and have to move back to California to start again. You would have ruined her career with your dream. You said you have lurked on this site for a while. Then you would no doubt have read about how many of us are doing utterly crap jobs, are unable to use our Ivy League university degrees as they count nothing here and have to do menial work in order to live together with our German partners or husbands. You both stand a chance in California. I very much doubt even one of you has a good chance in Germany. So if I were you I would stay in California, no questions asked.

Which doesn't answer the question why you are so averse to marrying a woman who seems perfect for you in the first place. Really, pick the place where both of you have a chance to use your abilities, to make something of your lives, to build a career, to support your growth.

You are just at the wrong end of the country. We get lots fresh fish (depends what you are looking for of course) & yesterday walked into a rebuilt local EDEKA which had such a large fruit & veg area it makes me wonder whether it can pay its way...

I agree with this. If you were really in love with her, then there's no way you'd even consider leaving her for any reason. If you're not willing to do whatever it takes to be together (i.e. not go to Germany just yet), then it's not really love.

You have 2 passions, and you seem to think that they may not be able to co-exist. Both are worthy, and both are risky. Both make you happy, but not quite happy enough yet. You have more years invested in one than in the other and you're looking for a way to have both satisfied in the best possible way. This is a nasty spot to be in.

If you choose Germany, you think that you may lose your Lady. If you choose your Lady, you must know that you will think of Germany endlessly and risk never truly trying to start a life here. If she wants to be with you then she will, no matter what or where. That doesn't guarantee success; passion for anything/one evolves and changes, and when it comes to love a huge test is starting a new life out of your comfort zone. Make or break.

As one who moved to Germany for love (as many do), we failed in the end and I left. Not nice, but no regrets about the experience overall. I miss Germany, and my guy, but if I had never tried then I would have missed so much, despite the eventual outcome. The biggest risks can return the biggest rewards, but of course also the greatest sadness if things don't work out. But, we are engineered to overcome bad things in time and it's true, we do.

Find a way to try to secure both of your passions in the shorter term, and life's roulette will do the rest, good or bad.

So the conrete alternatives for you are:

1. Move to Germany to study (without her, because she won't come along), and she may or may not join you a few years later
2. Move to California to study (and marry her), and probably never move to Germany due to lack of a "foot in the door"
3. Move to California to work (and marry her) and forget about getting a Masters Degree, and also forget about moving to Germany

Does that sum it up?

Why? Because she refuses to come along? Or also for other reasons?

Presumably, you have a specific degree in mind. How long would it take? 2 years?

Since you've highlighted the fact that she's ten years older than you, thus implying that the age gap or her age has been playing on your mind, and since you're so unclear how committed you are to her that you're resorting to posting this personal information here for a bunch of strangers to pick over while saying that "we have great, open, and honest communication", perhaps you should just do her a favour and let her get on with her life.

I get the feeling that she is the one holding the relationship together and you are kinda going along. Your Germany dream may be for real, but it may also be your "way out". Sometimes we blow our dreams out of proportions, unconsciously.

I think you have to separate the two decisions very clearly.

- Do you want to continue being with this woman?
You highlight the age difference, mention that this is your first long-term relationship, imply that she is of higher status than you (careerwise), you mention that she loves you for all that you are but you don't mention the opposite, that you love her for all that she is. Are you just getting the normal cold feet, or is it more?

- Do you want to live in Germany?
You have not taken any real steps to live in Germany yet, but it suddenly became a pressing issue once you realized you have to make the marriage decision. You consider the Germany dream as an obstacle for your marriage. It's still just a dream.


This could be a good test. Go for a vacation in Germany, alone, and see if you are happy being here without her. If you realize you are not committed enough, let her go, don't waste her time any more.

I really don't like statements like this at all. Have you considered that not all people experience things in the same way, and there is therefore no "correct way" to do something?

People experience love in as many ways as there are colours in the rainbow. Now if someone tells you love is red and only red (your comment) and you know yourself to experience it in a purple way, well now you're gonna feel insecure and as if there's something wrong with you when in fact there's nothing wrong with you.

So please open your eyes and understand that all people are different and experience life in a way that is unique to them, rather than trying to set unrealistic standards on the world.

The OP is talking about marriage, not just love. Marriage is an emotional and legal commitment to be with a person for the rest of your life. When getting married, you are telling the whole world that you can't live without this person. Seems like the OP isn't so strongly attached to his girlfriend if he's deciding whether to marry or dump the gal.

Yeesh.. 3 Pages later and many replies.. Just get on the next plane to Germany Already...

I couldn't disagree more. There's nothing unrealistic about what I've said at all. That's what love is, and it's very real. We don't experience love any more differently than we do happiness, sadness or anger. It's an emotion, not a mystical phenomenon. The thing is that we don't really know what love is until we've felt it and often settle for something that isn't really love because we don't know how to define it. I've know I've definitely been there, and I thought I knew what love was. I was sure I did, and I probably would have said the same thing you just did. I was with the wrong man for 10 years. He's a great guy, and it was a great relationship while it lasted, but now that I've actually experienced love I understand that what I had with him was not it, no matter how much I cared for him and thought it was. Love is not something that someone is just willing to give up because it doesn't fit in with their plans. When it really and truly is love, it takes priority over all else and isn't something you're willing to walk away from.