Heating options for the home - Germany

We have found a house that we really like but the heating for it oil.

I have heard that oil is more expensive to run and maintain when compared to water. Is this correct? If it is, how much more expensive is it?

Any insight to this is appreciated.

Cheers,

Um... Don't you mean they burn the oil (instead of electric, gas or wood or solar) to heat the water going round the radiators? In which case, it is still oil fired central heating.

You see, the only oil filled radiators I've come across are electrically powered, so they're electric heating, which is expensive.

Thanks for that. I think I need to ask them how the heating really works. You are probably right that the oil is electrically heated, but I am going to clarify.

Cheers,

I suggest you really do try to understand what you are talking about before you ask any questions, or you'll find the people you ask will be laughing as much as I am at the moment.

Most domestic "central" heating systems work by circulating hot water around a closed system of radiators.

The water that is circulating must be continuously heated. The most common fuels used to heat the water are natural gas and oil, but it is also possible to use LPG (bottled gas), electricity or wood/coal. Sometimes even a combination of fuels. It is also possible to be connected to a heating "plant" which simply sends you hot water (either generated themselves, e.g. by burning of rubbish or extracted from deep in the ground) to heat your own. It is also possible to supplement the traditional heating source using solar energy.

There are some arguments as to which fuel is cheaper or more environmentally friendly, and this may be factor in your final decision, but both the economics and the environmental protection will depend heavily on the construction of the heating system so it's never an easy comparison. In general it is accepted that gas-fired heating services are cheaper, cleaner and more convenient than oil-fired services, but oil may often be the only alternative if the property has no connection to a gas or alternative service.

Oil-filled radiators are usually stand-alone radiators and not part of a central heating system. The oil is heated by an electrical coil and is used simply because of better heat retention. It is also possible to have electric ("storage") radiators which heat up heat-retaining stones using overnight (cheap-rate) electricity such that the stones release the heat in the daytime when electricity would be otherwise more expensive to use. In general it is not efficient (read "expensive") to use electricity as your major source of domestic heat.

Separate to your domestic heating system is your water heating service. This usually uses the same source of heat, but simply heats up incoming water for domestic use rather than a circulating system for heating.

Patience of a saint that man.

Ummm... I'm completely missing "real" oil heating in the above posts. As in individual ovens with an oil-fueled fire in each room. No central burner and radiators, but individual ovens.

Along with the same setup fueled by gas, this was the standard heating system up till the 80s in Germany.

My assumption was that the house, like most modern residences, would be "centrally" heated, i.e a central heating plant with the heat distributed to heat exchangers (radiators) in each room. Of course, individual and independent room heating is also a possibility, using electricity or gas (not sure I ever heard of oil in this context, but it's not impossible) where each (some) room(s) have their own self-powered heaters, or even a coal/wood fired open fire or oven.

I have lived in a house with oil fired central heating in the past. Can't really think of any pros, but cons are:

1. Expensive, and likely to get more so as oil price increases
2. a right bugger if you run out. Our tank had no gauge so it was guesswork as to how much oil was left. On one rather cold february morning, we discovered that the oil had run out and we couldn't get anymore until the following day
3. Unsightly tank next to house
4. Deliveries

I'd think again if I was you

We had oil fired central heating when we moved into our house, and yes, it was a bit of a pain. Huge tank in the basement and always making sure we didn't run out. We had the tank taken out and switched to natural gas and have been happy every since.

The house i live in had individual oil ovens and boilers in two flats, and individual gas ovens and boilers in the other two (upgraded) flats, as well as two wood fireplaces.
In the 90s replaced by four sets of gas-fired central heating systems (one for each flat), then ten years later upgraded by hooking the four central systems in the house together and plugging it into district heating (Fernwärme).

I think the oil tanks are still in the basement...

What the big deal? With the common tank sizes you have enough oil for 1.5 to 2.5 years depending on your consume habits. You have plenty of time, one day you got nothing else to do you go to your cellar and check how much oil you still have and order if needed. Normally they do not have any gauges but you just turn off the lights and bring a lamp or torch light and point it to the tank. Come on, it is not rocket science.

The OP needs to give a bit more info, since at this point we're just guessing. Not all German homes use water to radiate heat, or even those stone-filled radiators. Those two methods seem the most common, but I've run across a few others.

We looked at a few houses that were built in the 1950s and had a German version of central hot air heating. The houses had not been renovated much since they were built, and you could see that the air shafts were not added on afterwards so this was the original heating concept. But it was definitely quite a bit different from the central forced air heating and airconditioning that I had back in Canada.

My husband couldn't make the viewing due to a business trip, so I took lots of photos of one house to email to him. We quickly decided that this house needed too much work to make it livable again. But I still get chuckles at some of the photos. Below you'll get an idea of the heating system.



1. There was an oil burner in the kitchen which was embedded into the wall shared with the living room.
2. The living room had the main part of the oven, an big ugly yellow thing.
3. Since hot air rises, the air should go up the shaft and magically (no fan) get distributed to all the other rooms through vents in the walls near the floor of the upstairs rooms.
4. The oil tank was in the basement.

Thanks for all the useful replies, even YorkshireLad's reply was useful after having a dig at me for not phrasing the question correctly. Like I always said, if you don't ask, you won't know.

After further thoughts, I believe that the house has oil fired central heating instead of my initial assumption of having heated oil circulating throughout the house. At the house inspection, there were two large tanks in the cellar and it had a particular smell to it. It sort smelled like diesel but not quite. After asking around today, it appears that it is basically diesel but with an additive which caused it to produce a specific smell when burn. Apparently, the additive is use to detract the oil from being used as car fuel.

Does anyone have any ideas how much these oil cost?

Many thanks.

http://www.tecson.de/pheizoel.htm

http://www.wer-ist-billiger.de/heizoel-tarifrechner/?t=g373

The top link shows the average current prices of oil, and the bottom one allows you to enter your details, ie Liefermenge = quantity to be delivered, PLZ is your post code and Abladestellen = how many deliveries (ie it can a bit cheaper if you join together with a neighbour or two for a multi-delivery).

While diesel used to be practically interchangeable with heating oil, in the last 15 years changes to the composition of heating oil (especially sulphur additives) render it unusable in modern diesel engines which would be quickly damaged if it were used. Notwithstanding of course that it would be illegal to use in a car.

From your description of tanks and the smell them it would be reasonable to assume the house you are considering has oil-fired central heating.

If you get a strong smell of oil in the storage cellar it is a pretty good indication that the tanks need replacing. Factor about €6000 for that.

With that money you could change the whole heating to a different system. i.e. gas.

And why do you think the tanks need to be changed? You change the tanks only if they are broken and/or leaking.

Or that there was a minor spill/leakage at the last fill up. Factor about €10 in detergent for that.

Once the spill has occured and seeped into the concrete even spending the full €10 budget proposed by YL6 you will struggle to remove the smell. Sometimes they are tiled of course, but you'll struggle to ever get rid of the smell.

We have some friends in the village and just entering the ground floor and it stinks of oil - I guess they are used to it. I think it's pretty horrid frankly.

@YorkshireLad6 : Not quite correct. Normal heating oil may contain up to 1000ppm (0.1%) sulfur. There is also a heating oil with 50ppm sulfur on the market.
Newer boilers will not work with the "normal" heating oil. (google for Brennwerttechnik or condensing boiler technology)

I don't think it takes much of a leak to leave a lingering smell. The smell of a few drops of automotive diesel on my hands can hang around for weeks until my next shower...

I got it down to €4000 for a new 3000L tank (incl empty/clean, removal and disposal of old tanks). €6000 is on the high side for new tanks but if you've got larger volume or multiple tanks...
But yes, you could probably convert from oil to gas for ~€7000 if you have a gas main on the street in front of your house.

And yes, it only takes a very small leak to smell like hell.

If you have an old (oil) heating system, it might be worth costing the conversion to gas. Our neighbours have done just that, also even paid for the gas pipe to be brought down into our cul de sac (about 2,500 euro). They said that they needed new tanks (4X 2,000 litre is what's installed in our houses and they said the tanks would be about 600-800 euro each) and a new boiler.They obviously costed it very carefully, but are quite sure that it is much more economical for them. Also of course you don't have to pay out a few thousand euro at a time for an oil delivery. Gas is more of a pay as you go system.

...not really a valid argument, as the gas company will expect you to pre-pay in monthly advance, then charges you in full at the end of the year, deducting pre-payments from the bill, which is no different to a regular deposit into a savings account to pay the oil bill when you get it. But in general, on an annual cost basis gas is cheaper than oil for the same level of heat.

We've been very pleasantly surprised by our low heating bills since moving into our house. It's a geo-thermal system with a heat pump and floor heating. Instead of a core going straight down, we've got coils underneath part of our garden. No more worries about gas, oil or wood prices, and our electricity bill is quite manageable even though I kept it quite comfortably warm all winter. We will be installing a wood burning stove as a back-up, since obviously if the power goes out then we're out of luck. On the other hand, few oil and gas systems can function without electricity so it isn't really that bad.

Unfortunately, the installation costs for a new geo-thermal system tends to be quite high for anyone interested in converting. But once you've got it, the savings are substantial.

Some very interesting comments here..

I may well be in the maket for a complete new Heating system.

I think I wuld prefer a Large gas Cylender and LPG, however, the style of boiler still remains an uncertainty to me.

Combi_boiler, The Type that Sparks up for instant hot water when demanded, or a boiler that heats a large Hot water storage tank somewhere.

My other question is, Can we use Copper pipes from the UK and install them here rather than use heavy steel pipes like they do here ( My idea is to bring the pipes, fittings and Radiators from the uk, Install them here, but get a local Plumber Bod, to fit the boiler! ( I prefer the thought of a proper soldered joint than a Threaded or compression joint)

I can't help thinking Bipa's got it right. "Which fossil fuel is least worst" is the wrong question for looking at your energy use, long term. I'm no environmental zealot, but, for housing, it's got to be (largely) renewable-energy, well-insulated properties that are the way forward? I've got both and have tiny heating bills (even with low temp winters), and I expect them to stay like that.

In regards to the oil for a new tenant in a house. what is the norm? Should the house be leased with a full tank of oil and should the tank be full when departing?

Demand it, otherwise they may try to screw you. However, they may and most probably will have you buy all the oil in the tank upfront and give you a refund only after the next tenant buys the oil you leave behind. The system here is designed so that the landlords never ever assume any financial risk whatsoever. It is pathological.

Why should the landlord assume any risk on something that is nothing to do with him? The costs for heating and therefore the costs for oil are the responsibility of the tenant and clearly both departing and arriving tenant need to ensure they are not screwed by the transfer process. How it works depends on the agreement you can reach or determined in the rental contract. Taking over a full tank would make most sense and is probably the fairest option, so you then ensure it is equally full when you leave and you pay at the current rates for oil you have actually used. Alternatively you can estimate the quantity/value of oil in the tank on arrival and pay or be refunded for any different on departure. Estimating levels and value is more speculative so not the best approach.

You people are all so 20th Century.

http://www.tb-sendner.de/html/warme_aus_der_luft.html

We're not, but the houses people rent are...

Recently read an article on Energy efficient houses in Freiburg. The average cost of heating is about 1/20 of what I am paying currently.

Anyone here actually convert from oil to gas and get rid of the smell from the oil tank? The gas company likes to tout that you will get a room freed up in the cellar but I heard somewhere that even when the tank has been removed, it is nearly impossible to get rid of the oil smell. In my house, the tank room is sealed off with a metal door so the smell doesn't invade the rest of the house at all.

It has everything to do with him cause he owns the place. He is effectively acting as an energy company would. The tenant should pay a monthly "oil" fee upon moving in and at the next scheduled delivery the owner and the tenant can calculate if the monthly payment needs to be adjusted. However, this requires money out of the owner's pocket and the landlord business model here isn't set up for that. More often than not, they simply refuse to put money into their own investment. They effectively make the tenants the "temporary owners" thereby relieving the real owner of as much risk as possible while holding onto all the equity.

What about we implement the same system for your food? I, as your landlord will provide you with a fridge full of food and when it is empty you give me a ring and I fill it up again. You will pay me a monthly estimation of your food consumption and at the end of the year we calculate everything.

We can do the same for drinks, clothings, etc. Because you know, you are living in my property and it is my responsibility to take care of my investment.

The tenant is free to do that with many oil companies too, just like elektrickery or gas. I don't see why the Landlord should participate in the transaction at all.

It's an unlikely scenario. Most oil heating installations are there in the first place because mains gas was not available at the time, so unless the gas company have since enlarged their network it's not an option..

The local gas company offers to hook up to the main pipe on the street if you sign a multiyear contract (4 years I think). In my case, gas is on the street but not hooked up to all of the houses. So I wouldn't say it is unlikely, otherwise they wouldn't be making the offer and they have been doing it for a few years now to entice oil customers to switch to gas.

I don't understand. Is this not how it usually works via Nebenkostenabrechnung? We constantly order oil for our tenants' tank, pay it in full and then get it back in monthly bits as part of their Nebenkosten.

Typical anti-logic used as an argument. FAIL!

Besides, most places don't even have a frigging kitchen in them.

OK, then what about, I pay for your electricity, water and telephone? Anti-logic as well?

I do the same and when I get a good deal, I pass the savings on to the tenant. I don't see the issue here. It is like any other consumption - the individual pays for as much or little as they use. Even if it is a property with only one tenant, I would not see any problem with letting them fill the tank when they see fit (especially considering the price fluctuations of the last two years) and get the best price by organizing with the neighbors for a multi-delivery.

You are definitely not typical compared to what I have seen. Good for you. You actually seem to know what you are doing. Unfortunately, I think you are rare. Perhaps it is a regional thing and the Bavarians just haven't caught on yet.

...assuming there is a main pipe in the street in the first place. Many areas don't have a gas pipe for miles.

We just have a lot of cows around here. Wrong sort of gas, though it would make an interesting form of renewable energy. Just gotta figure out how to hook up the cows to the home heating unit.

(Yeah, I know, farmers are already harvesting methane from cow shit, but not in enough quantities to pipe it into homes for heating)

My house gets its entire heating energy in the form of liquified steam pumped through an insulated underground network from a coal plant about 20 km away. Nothing renewable about that, but the concept is the future. And for us definitely cheaper than gas.

Isn't that what renting's all about?
The 2 times I rented a place, it was up to me to look after the oil. The landlord had nothing to so with it.
I can see that you'd need different arrangements for oil for an apartment block, though.

No, that isn't what renting is all about. You are renting the space, not taking over the responsibilities of the actual owner. If it was, then the OP as tenant could actually talk about changing from oil to gas or electricity.

Eh? Changing the heating system is totally different from using it. Of course that would fall outside a rental agreement.