Supermarket comparisons - UK vs. Germany

interesting points Foreigner and good to see the opposite perspective. There are probably more people that do some shopping in specialised shops here, as many have disappeared in UK, as you say. However, I don't think the fact that more specialised shops perhaps exist in Germany for meat etc excuses the supermarkets having stuff that has already gone off. As JE says, if you are going to try and sell something, at least do it well. The thread subject is, after all supermarket v supermarket

I agree that Foreigner has given us food for thought (uhm), however I am sure that if the concept of one-stop shopping as far as groceries were concerned actually hit the German market, they'd be really successful - just look at chains that sell other types of goods like Saturn or MediaMarkt.

Some time ago at the airport, I ended up chatting with a guy who claimed to be the former managing director of Mueller-Brot (apparently kicked out by the owner after some sort of hostile takeover attempt by Barilla). He said that they had done lots of blind tests to compare different bakeries, and that Mueller bread usually won when compared to Hofpfisterei bread. Somehow I don't believe it, but it could be interesting to do an experiment like that just to verify...

I don't agree with Foreigner that Germans mainly buy their fruit and veggie at the greengrocer. That's what they should do (and that's how it was some decades ago), considering the low quality of produce in supermarkets. But as far as I can tell, most Germans just take the car and go to the supermarket these days.

tom_a, I was more referring to the production method. Müller has a huge depot and sends out frozen, part-baked bread to their bakeries which is baked up according to demand (preservatives are frowned upon for German bread, so no Mother's Pride or Wonderloaf here).
Hofpfisterei doesn't bake the bread up, it is sold on the day of production, ebing delivered each day from their central site - which is why they have their big sell-off just before closing time.
There is a difference between an artisan bakery and a shop that sells bread. To me personally, there is no difference between Pennymarkt selling baked-up frozen bread and Müller doing the same but with Müller having the cachet of being a bakery. Frankly, there are few places where bread is baked and sold on the same site. Even my local baker, a Bio one to boot, has centralised production with it's two other branches.

Katrina,

totally agreed. It wasn't that way just 10 or 15 years ago. Back then, it was quite unusual for a bakery to have 2 or 3 branch outlets a few km away from the bakery (hundreds of outlets spread out all over Bavaria would have been unthinkable). Not sure if it affects the quality or not, though.

By the way, all the bread sold at Penny is actually produced by Mueller (or so that gentleman told me), so it really doesn't make a difference if you buy it at Mueller or at Penny.

in checking out my new neighborhood on saturday a.m. i saw the market (corner of Hansa and Albert Roßhaupterstr) overfilled with people and cars waiting to get into the parking lot. aside from myself and some kid handing out SPD flyers, my guess was the average age of customers was 55! now i do not know what kind of special market this was, but all the young people were in the Penny Markt next door.

the quality of the produce at this market was, IMHO, rather bleak. granted roma tomatoes were .50 cent a kg, but they were all wrinkled up and soft. what are we seeing here? what kind of trend?

i prefer to shop at the eurospar on hansaplatz because i CAN buy everything. i don't have time to go to the butcher and then the baker. hell, i needed a new can opener and went to the top floor. but what i am seeing is, most grocery stores have a bakery inside.

If you live in Sendling, there is a big Turkish supermarket in a courtyard off Implerstrasse (north of the subway station, to the right, it's a little hidden). They have good and cheap fruit and veggies. Strange thing is, apart from Turks, there seem to be hardly any customers.

Turkish shops are great as a rule for fresh veggies and stuff.
Probably the germans think it is "below" them to go into a Turkish shop

How are people who live in the inner cities meant to get to all these fabulous out of town supermarkets bearing in mind most of us don't have cars... Whereas in town I can walk to 3 Tengelmann's , Plus, Penny and 2 Norma's in 5 minutes.

Shopping in Germany - especially for food - is shit.

QED.

I saw an episode of Stern TV a few months back where they were slating the quality of german vegetables available everywhere: i.e. not just supermarkets, but greengrocers and Bauernmarkt stands.

They interviewed a spanish tomato farmer about where they send their various grades of tomatoes and it was more or less along the lines of: "the best tomatoes we send to france, the sweetest to Italy, the best of the rest to the UK and the dreck that is left over we send to Germany at a redzced price". When asked why, he responded that the german consumer is only interested in one thing: price. Since then I have been looking out where the various tomatoes come from in my local greengrocers, Bauernmarkt stand and supermarket. They are mostly from Spain.

Agreed. However are British supermarkets really that good or is it just German ones which are really poor?...

I find that supermarkets in the UK are extremely expensive and that the food available isn't much better than what one can find in Belgium or Italy for example. Being able to buy fresh milk, and my favorite, double cream is great but apart from that, the convenient shopping hours and a wide variety of semi ready-made meals, I get the feeling they're a little overrated by the TT community. I realize that this is a Germany vs. UK discussion, but I think that it would be fair to look at the wider picture too.

Please sir, please sir (hand in the air) - I can answer this one.

It is German ones that are crap. Fact. Period. Statement. End of discussion.

Go to Italy, France, Australia, USA etc - they have all got their act together better than this place. Only 3rd world countries like Greece could be worse.

Looking at eastern Europe, Czech Rep and Co (and I'll take Austrian owned Billa rathe than UK owned Tesco) wipe the floor with German suspermarkets.

BUT, this generally refers to edge of town new builds since 1990.

I really think it is the inner city smaller stores in Munich that are the "worst"

Agreed. Supermarkets here have me running to the markets as often as possible. Horrible places with out of date food on their shelves on more than one occasion. When we first moved here they actually brought me to tears as I love cooking and browsing the shops and could not believe that my choices were Wal mart or mini mal.
Supermarkets aren't always a great solution for quality but I do not believe the reason Germany has such terrible ones is because so many people shop in the specialist shops as a matter of course. I just think germans are used to poor quality and don't know what else to expect. They would be stoned in France. The closest France has is the terrible petit casino with dried out veg and odd tinned goods. I used to love wandering the aisles of the hypermarche to see the variety, especially the fish. There is no fun in shopping in german supermarkets at all.

Do not understand how Aldi made so much money as it stocks rubbish. Then again, they must have a large market to sell to Even Mini Mal has very little "quality" produce. For dairy, toilet roll etc they are ok but for meat, vegetables, egges, bread give me a market anyday.

What gets me the most about the markets here is that they start cleaning and stocking at 19:00, so you can't even move in the store. They mop while customers are there, so the floors end up muddy. Duh!

If they waited until the doors close, they could do the whole store in 10 minutes instead of one hour. Forget quality and selection, it is this mayhem that detracts the most when shopping for food.

Are the staffs so blöd in the U.K. as well? I imagine not. In the U.S., the stores never close and the aisles are wide enough for trucks, so you can't compare.

Ah Germany...the place that produces well-trained craftspeople for every occasion...my personal favorite is the Systemgastronomiefachmann/-frau

- in other words McDonalds worker.

Sorry, Foreigner, I don't agree with you either. And wasn't it just a few months ago that those extremely well-trained butchers at Real were caught repacking all of that old meat?

You can make a lot of arguments about where Germany is better than other countries, but the realm of supermarkets and food is definitely not it. Germany: the only place where I regularly find rotten/moldy fruits and veg for sale as "klasse 1" foodstuff. I would rather pay more than be confronted with rotten food everytime I go to a supermarket.

I was shopping in HIT recently and as I was packing the shopping I noticed the cucumber we had was gone bad near one end. I pointed it out to the cashier who said I could go and get a different one but instead of taking the bad and throwing it away, she told me to put it back on the display...

Do you think the German supermarkets are interested to hear this kind of opinion about their stores? Surely someone works in retailing and has poined it out to them?

Problem is, you can't have low prices on the one hand (Aldi, Plus, Penny, Lidl, Norma) and good quality on the other hand (choice, freshness - Karstadt, Kaefer, local markets) on the hand together in one shop - and one should be aware, what it means to buy tomatos for 50 ct / kg - that's cheaper than beer.
And never buy vegetables from spain...

The point of the spiegel program was that regardless of land of origin (and lets face it most veggies in DLand are imported) germany is sent the scum at the bottom of the barrel. It's about supply and demand: the demand is for low price regardless of quality.

Just came back from the supposedly up-market Minimal. Guy on the till had some kind of skin disease - not his fault and no doubt not catching but somehow not very appetising. Guy in front of me had BO so I let a couple of others go first for the sake of my nose. When it was my turn first guy let the crisps slide down first to be smashed by the following bottle of wine. Finally my stuff didn't quite fit the bag so he just stood and stared and watched me struggle with money, handbag and trying to pack. I just never have such experiences in the UK. A student told me last night the different culture here means people go shopping at least twice a week, if not more often, whereas we go once every two weeks. Hence they don't need help at the till. Think that was just an excuse.

they're probably not interested, german customer services doesnt generaly do looking out of the box, be it on the MVV or in the supermarket. and if any scum bag foriegner suggests a system which might be more customer friendly and flexible, he'll get a sentence including the be all and end all of words "tradition" thrown into it.

funny enough for a country of "elbow users" they are totaly timid when it comes to demanding better service and choice in their supermarkets, hence they get stuck with the shit they deserve. add to that the lack of any depth, variety and sense of adventure in the german cusine and the resulting lack of demand for anything more exotic than pasta and why the hell should the supermarkets try. as someone once said to me, germans dont want to be first, nor do they want to be second, the want to one and a quarterst. so untill there's a threat from outside germany (whereever it be from) dont expect anything to move.

The funny thing about this is, that most of the germans I know which are interested in food (and are no students) don't by bread, vegetables or meat at this supermarkets. I think buying this stuff regularly at this low-cost supermarkets is a lower class thing.

I agree, it's where scum of the earth like myself can roam freely with our own kind.

Miata, without being bitchy, Munich is a very expensive city and most people HAVE to shop at the cheap supermarkets rather than a fabulous high class independent grocer...

Interesting points Gideon. I'm not above provoking a row at the kasse in a supermarket and ending with "well if that's your attitude you can f*** off then and I won't be shopping here again" (in German of course) and walking off with the whole lot rung in the till but not paid for.

But I shop very locally in only one of two shops in my Kiez so can't really.

also what is wrong with german supermarkets, they dont have the common sense to throw away rotting fruit. Countless times when picking fruit you see rotting ones still left, whats worse is the small fruit and veg shops having window displays with rotting fruit. Do they think that someone will want to buy it in that condition

hmm..other way round

What do you expect to have the better quality?

a.) a lettuce for 39 ct (Plus)
b.) a lettuce, price: 1,50 €, sold by a little local grocer?

You always get what you pay for - but many people only see the price and then complain about missing quality..they don't know it better.

I disagree. There are other countries in which prices and quality are on a par with each other. There is just no reasonable explanation as to why supermarkets in Germany are so poor.

Aldi and Lidl take over France
2 out of 3 buy at discounters


http://www.merkur-online.de/nachrichten/wi...279,421155.html

Economist reported on Tesco's success last week. Apparently it is used equally by all 'classes' of people and one of the foundations of its success is the good use made of statistics from the Clubcard system. Tesco isn't just big out of town places either as it has Tesco Express (I think) now

There is a TESCO Express near Gatwick Airport which doesn't have a large selection but is good for last minute cheese so it doesn't have to melt in the car on the way to the airport.

I do not know of a single self respecting French person who would buy in these places. It must be the people on a budget who shop there.

you mean real people. millions of people all over europe shop in "these places" including lots of self respecting french i know. me thinks you live in a rich persons snob bubble.

That may be the case. I was merely pointing out I do not know of anyone who would go there over the markets or even the hypermarche. Even students I knew there would rather shop in Super U than the German stores. It is a shame to live in a country full of such wonderful produce (which is certainly not as expensive as it is here or in UK) and feed your family from the junk food sold in Aldi/Lidl.

sorry mel, but i feel you've not studied aldi/lidle well enough, the have good quality products, basic yes but they succeed on the their principle of 250 products rather 1500 in a store. also no fresh meat etc as the logistics are shit. no fancy posh fruit because storage is a problem. dumb these people are not. i also by a heck of alot of stuff from them, believe me is not rubbish, but if you want to spend more money than me on the same basics (oh their frozen lamb pieces are excellent for curries!) then please do so. as we say up north, there's one born every minute.

examples, I am interested? I do not count frozen food as a basic part of my diet. Nor do I count tinned food as part of it. Nor do any of my French friends. That is why I think it must be people on a budget. Fair enough. I remember plenty of students would shop there when I was at uni.
They also carry a shocking line of breakfast cereal as far as I remember.
We eat fresh and I do not mind paying for quality produce. I certainly haven't ever thought I am being ripped off for dairy items, cereals etc in other supermarkets.

A VERY basic example:

200g Greek Antipasti in Tengelmann: € 2,49
200g Greek Antipasti in Plus: € 1,99

SAME product, SAME owner of shop.

On basics you can save a FORTUNE by shopping at the discounters and not the "brand" stores.

Mel, without starting to flame you, I think you are displaying a sbobby attitude and an antiquated one. I certainly preferr to eat fresh as opposed to tinned or frozen foods but some consumption of those foods is almost inevitable, you "can't" cut them out totally.

Gideon, where you get frozen lamb for curries? Cheers.

I do. The only thing I buy packaged is cereal, yoghurt, milk, frech OJ, plain cous cous, rice. But these would tend to be organic.
It isn't snobby! Why would I be accused of being snobby just because I don't mind spending a bit extra to shop in a nicer environment with shelves? The only thing I buy packaged is cereal, yoghurt, milk, fresh OJ, plain cous cous, rice. But these would tend to be organic. I like to cook and like to buy good, fresh ingredients. It isn't the cheapest option but it depends what your priorities are. A wine lover wouldn't buy plonk but isn't a snob. Same for a cheese lover! Can't imagine them eating Kraft slices. Not snobby. Just their choice.

sadly mel, you are being ripped off. aldi/lidl use the same suppliers as you pay for for the "quality" goods. they also have good wine deals - not always but very often - and there's nowt wrong with frozen goods, as they are often frozen in a better quality than you buy "fresh", sadly.
aldi goods also often win on blind tests and tasting. but as i said before you can spend your money where you like, and if you feel expensive is better then it will taste better to you.

MT, at Aldi they have 6 small non fatty lamb pieces 400g vaccum sealed (fresher than you'll ever get) without a marinade aswell.

I LOVE good cheese but if I'm making say a Lasagne why would I want to buy the best? And there is something between cheese hand rolled down the mountain by Heidi and Kraft Slices too!

A few years ago there was an independent survey to find the best champagne available in Germany and the winner was... Aldi at € 12.99 a bottle!

Cheers Gideon.

Because you are eating it? Why would you want to put something in your body which has been made specifically to be cheap. They have to use chemicals and the lowest suppliers to produce these. That is another debate about organic etc though.
Also, is it any coincidence that places with low income levels have higher rates of heart disease/cancer etc? I doubt it. A pepper is more expensive than a cheap ready meal so obviously people with little money are going to opt for that over the healther option or spam over a steak. Interestingly though they did a survey in the UK last year where the made healthy foods available at cheap prices in some of the poorest areas in the UK. ALL of them opted for the healthier options (which is great) except Springburn in Glasgow where they preferred Mars bars and ready meals!
Seriously though, I buy at farmer's markets or organically where I can and wouldn't eat Kraft cheese slices because I don't like processed food. I also don't eat ready meals and wouldn't feed one to my husband or guests. however, some friends do as cooking just isn't their thing. Luckily I live beside a very good organic farm and inependent stores (and our neighbours have chickens with yummy eggs) and I feel that we live a healthy lifestyle. Aldi makes me want to cry!

if it maks you cry dont shop there. but dont knock it as a store, they provide good quality food at cheap prices for people less privilaged and monied than yourself. when i designed food and wine packaging for M&S we once had a wine which wasnt shifting. it was priced at 2.99, we RAISED the price to 5.99 and it flew from the shelves. your perception of quality is influenced by the price, and expensive can also be very very bad quality by the way.

I've gone partly organic: Juices, milk, butter, yoghurts, pasta and cheese, I tend to buy organically at my local PLUS supermarket!

Please note that for a lot of people living in cities, the supermarket is the ONLY option and as has been pointed out, the discounters have the SAME stuff, just unbranded and a LOT cheaper.

Some food is underpriced I agree. Some food is overpriced too, at the different end of the market - and that's where you are buying.


Posh git!

ooo - hark at you! didn't know we had such posh folk in our midst!!

Well that was my point! I choose not to but it doesn't mean I am being snobby. I find Aldi stressful and hectic and personally would rather spend my time in smaller stores. And I think I was knocked for saying mostly people on a budget shopped there. You have just agreed with me! I stand by "you get what you pay for" in this area though. I really do. You are right about perception, my brother in law worked for Grants whisky and they had a bottle they exported to Japan at about £50 a bottle I think. Didn't sell, so they increased it to hundreds and it sold! I accept that in certain shops I am paying more for their overheads but I like shopping in a nice enviroment and not standing in line for hours at the check out. People don't need BMWs or Mercs but they choose to have a car at that end of the market. All about choice.

The supermarket is not the only option, especially in cities which have so many delicatessens/markets/fruit stands. It might be the only option for people with no time or on a budget but living in the city doesn't mean they cannot access quality goods.

Put your finger on it, time and money.
Something you might have but many, if not the majority, don't.

I can't get to the Viktualienmarkt or Dallmayer as I work full time. I might go there for a treat, but not for regular shopping. Almost no one does.

BTW, the Viktualienmarket was exposed on TV for selling super organic eggs from chickens supposedly sleeping on handwoven golden nests that were proved to be BATERY eggs.

I've been through there VERY early and seen them setting out their beautiful veg that comes from the SAME supplers as the supermarkets.

come on your a food snob, accept it. you have no idea about aldis quality and are judging the quality and the financial liquidity of their shoppers accordingly. 65 to 70% of people in germany use Aldi. why because they get quality cheaper.

Or because the economy is struggling, unemployment is high and people have less money. Quality to them may not be quality to me. If that a food snob makes...
I would rather know where my food comes from. Although the thought of my neighbour bringing me a freshly killed chicken which I have admired from my window for weeks, is rather off-putting!

As it happens the VERY well to do also shop at Aldi.
Regular feature in the trashy press.

Didn't know that but not surprising. It isn't all bad though as there are certain ingredients I just cannot find anywhere else in town, and certainly not in supermarkets. And their fruit and vegetables are on the whole nicer looking and tasting. I think there are food scandals everywhere as all people are concerned about is making money fast.