An Air France passenger jet with 215 people on board is missing after dropping off radar over the Atlantic off the Brazilian coast
Nobody is sure what could have happened.
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Air France jet missing off Brazil coast
Update: Now believed to have broken up on impact
Bloody hell that doesn't look good!
Read this on the French plane lost over Atlantic (BBC News).
Let the conspiracy theories begin! Hijacked? Faulty equipment? Crashed?
I go with it having crashed. I hope that everyone survived.
[color=gray]Topics merged by admin
An Air France plane carrying 228 people from Brazil to France has gone missing over the Atlantic.
Paris Charles de Gaulle airport said contact was lost with the flight from Rio de Janeiro at 0600 GMT.
[...]
An airport official told AFP the Airbus 330-200 had been expected to arrive in Paris at 1110 local time (0910 GMT).
Paris Charles de Gaulle airport said contact was lost with the flight from Rio de Janeiro at 0600 GMT.
[...]
An airport official told AFP the Airbus 330-200 had been expected to arrive in Paris at 1110 local time (0910 GMT).
Let the conspiracy theories begin! Hijacked? Faulty equipment? Crashed?
I go with it having crashed. I hope that everyone survived.
[color=gray]Topics merged by admin
I looks very bad indeed, it vanished several hours ago. It arrival time inparis was planned shortly after 11am
http://avherald.com/h?article=41a81ef1&opt=0
It´s an Airbus, so it is not related to Quatas' crash (Boeing 747)
An Air France Airbus A330-200, registration F-GZCP performing flight AF-447 (dep May 31st) from Rio de Janeiro,RJ (Brazil) to Paris Charles de Gaulle (France) with 216 passengers and 12 crew, is overdue at Paris Charles de Gaulle for more than an hour. The airplane had departed Brazil's radar coverage normally.
http://avherald.com/h?article=41a81ef1&opt=0
It´s an Airbus, so it is not related to Quatas' crash (Boeing 747)
I reckon the Widmore Corporation is involved.
Am I the only one thinking that "Lost" finally may turn from fiction to reality?
In all seriousness, though, I hope everyone on board is okay.
In all seriousness, though, I hope everyone on board is okay.
no. did you not read the post above yours?
WILSON!!!
could it just be that however they communicate (radio?) has been compromised and the plane itself is actually okay? Does anyone know if all traces of it have disappeared from radar? I would guess that from its positio it would be too far out of range to tell.
EDIT: scrub that, just seen the coverage. It has been 'gone' for some time and should have been picked up on radar somewhere by now if still airborne. I hope to god that they managed to land safely on water and that passengers survived.
EDIT: scrub that, just seen the coverage. It has been 'gone' for some time and should have been picked up on radar somewhere by now if still airborne. I hope to god that they managed to land safely on water and that passengers survived.
I thought it wasn't actually on radar where it was and it just sent its position back every half hour.
Doesn't look good.
Air France crash: 'No hope' of survivors
Air France crash: 'No hope' of survivors
An Air France plane bound for Paris that disappeared with 228 people on board today has almost certainly crashed with no survivors, according to airline and government officials.
Air France said the plane sent a message at 3.14am British time reporting an electrical short-circuit after it had flown through a stormy area with strong turbulence, the Reuters news agency has reported.
Brazilian air force planes are searching the Atlantic for flight AF447, an Airbus A330-200 that left Rio de Janeiro at 7pm Brazilian time (11pm BST) yesterday. It had been expected in Paris at 11.15am.
The Brazilian air force told the Associated Press that a search was under way near the island of Fernando de Noronha.
An Air France source was quoted as saying that there was "no hope" for those on board.
Jean-Louis Borloo, the second most senior figure in the French cabinet, said: "By now it would be beyond its kerosene [aviation fuel] reserves so unfortunately we must now envisage the most tragic scenario."
Borloo told France Info radio that the plane disappeared from both military and civilian radar screens.
Air France said the plane sent a message at 3.14am British time reporting an electrical short-circuit after it had flown through a stormy area with strong turbulence, the Reuters news agency has reported.
Brazilian air force planes are searching the Atlantic for flight AF447, an Airbus A330-200 that left Rio de Janeiro at 7pm Brazilian time (11pm BST) yesterday. It had been expected in Paris at 11.15am.
The Brazilian air force told the Associated Press that a search was under way near the island of Fernando de Noronha.
An Air France source was quoted as saying that there was "no hope" for those on board.
Jean-Louis Borloo, the second most senior figure in the French cabinet, said: "By now it would be beyond its kerosene [aviation fuel] reserves so unfortunately we must now envisage the most tragic scenario."
Borloo told France Info radio that the plane disappeared from both military and civilian radar screens.
How horrible,
My sentiments for the families... My daughter flew yesterday across the atlantic, I cant even begin to imagine how the directly affected people are feeling.
My sentiments for the families... My daughter flew yesterday across the atlantic, I cant even begin to imagine how the directly affected people are feeling.
Apparently this plane can have approximately 26 business seats and 256 economy seats, so with 228 people on board, it was pretty full up. I was just thinking that if it had had fewer people/been lighter, they might have had a chance of ditching and getting into rafts, but all those people make it fairly unlikely.
I think that one of the reports said something like 2am GMT, so it would be a few hours before that local time, depending on which time zone, when it disappeared. ie in the middle of the night. Miserable chances. How awful.
I think that one of the reports said something like 2am GMT, so it would be a few hours before that local time, depending on which time zone, when it disappeared. ie in the middle of the night. Miserable chances. How awful.
The Airbus A330 has enjoyed a near-perfect safety record since it began commercial operation in 1993.
The wide-bodied, twin-engine passenger plane was designed to compete on long-haul routes with similar Boeing planes.
There have been no passenger deaths on A330s since it entered operation, although seven crew were killed during a test flight in June 1994 when the plane was simulating an engine failure on takeoff at the Airbus factory in Toulouse.
In August 2001, an A330 operated by Air Transat suffered double engine failure while flying from Toronto, Canada, to Lisbon in Portugal. The captain reported the left engine failed, followed 10 minutes later by the right one. The plane was able to glide for between 17 and 18 minutes – the longest ever for a passenger jet – and made an emergency landing in the Azores. Human error and lack of automated computer checks stopped the crew from realising that fuel was leaking via a broken pipe.
The wide-bodied, twin-engine passenger plane was designed to compete on long-haul routes with similar Boeing planes.
There have been no passenger deaths on A330s since it entered operation, although seven crew were killed during a test flight in June 1994 when the plane was simulating an engine failure on takeoff at the Airbus factory in Toulouse.
In August 2001, an A330 operated by Air Transat suffered double engine failure while flying from Toronto, Canada, to Lisbon in Portugal. The captain reported the left engine failed, followed 10 minutes later by the right one. The plane was able to glide for between 17 and 18 minutes – the longest ever for a passenger jet – and made an emergency landing in the Azores. Human error and lack of automated computer checks stopped the crew from realising that fuel was leaking via a broken pipe.
the BBC news reported that the aircraft hit some turbulence and then monitoring stations began receiving automated data feeds from it indicating that there were problems. The pilots were probably struggling too much to try and control it to make any transmissions themselves.
Certainly doesn't sound good. I've flown in the A330 many times and there've never been any hitches on my flights.
Could a direct lightning strike put out any systems? That was one of the theroies I heard.
Certainly doesn't sound good. I've flown in the A330 many times and there've never been any hitches on my flights.
Could a direct lightning strike put out any systems? That was one of the theroies I heard.
Actually every plane is hit by a lightning once a year and nothing happens. Planes have very good protection against them and there has not been a single serious incident (on western planes) in the last 50 years.
Thunderstorms pose many other risks to planes though.
That been said, a direct hit could induce small currents that could affect electronic systems (and a sort of short circuit was reported by the plane automatically before it disappeared)
Thunderstorms pose many other risks to planes though.
That been said, a direct hit could induce small currents that could affect electronic systems (and a sort of short circuit was reported by the plane automatically before it disappeared)
I was just thinking that if it had had fewer people/been lighter, they might have had a chance of ditching...
I wonder where you get this idea - the difference in weight of a few PAXs will not significantly alter the chances of a successful diching...
Actually every plane is hit by a lightning once a year and nothing happens. Planes have very good protection against them and there has not been a single serious incident (on western planes) in the last 50 years.
Reference? It was a pretty serious accident when a Metroliner (NFD) that crashed on the approach to Duesseldorf during a thunderstorm after being struck by lightning in February 1988 killing all on board - pretty well the entire board of Bahlsen (the biscuit manufacturer). My ex-girlfriend was copilot on that flight...
Edit: Thats the combination of points 7,8 & 9 in the link in the following post.
Aviation Losses from Lightning Strikes...
National Lightning Safety Institute
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lls/avaition_losses.html
Image and video loop show a large aircraft apparently being struck by lightning shortly after takeoff `
The still image and video were discussed in a University of Florida scientific publication titled "The interaction of lightning with airborne vehicles"...
http://www.hoax-slayer.com/lightning-strik...ane-japan.shtml
http://www.lightning.ece.ufl.edu/PDF/Progr...iencespaper.pdf
National Lightning Safety Institute
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lls/avaition_losses.html
Image and video loop show a large aircraft apparently being struck by lightning shortly after takeoff `
The still image and video were discussed in a University of Florida scientific publication titled "The interaction of lightning with airborne vehicles"...
http://www.hoax-slayer.com/lightning-strik...ane-japan.shtml
http://www.lightning.ece.ufl.edu/PDF/Progr...iencespaper.pdf
Hudson River was a freak. Perfect landing, perfect visibility and perfect calm water. At night into the ocean? No hope.
It was a pretty serious accident when a Metroliner (NFD) that crashed on the approach to Duesseldorf during a thunderstorm after being struck by lightning in February 1988 killing all on board
Oh, I am sorry to hear she was there.
But, in that case the lightning hit while landing. It is still unknown if it caused a total failure or if there was something else. But the pilot lost control of the plane, the plane went up and down several times causing sever damage to the landing gear and later to a wing and making the plane to crash. Even before the lightning hit the plane the copilot argued with the pilot about having lowered the landing gear too soon.
while aircraft lightning strikes are not uncommon, serious damage or crashes caused by lightning are quite rare. According to a Scientific American article about lightning strikes and aircraft, its is "estimated that on average, each airplane in the U.S. commercial fleet is struck lightly by lightning more than once each year". However, the article notes that the last crash directly attributed to a lightning strike occurred back in 1967 when the fuel tank exploded. (since then tanks are being protected against such incidents and should not explode)
Understanding of the potential effects of lightning strikes have increased substantially since then and modern commercial aircraft go through stringent lightning certification tests. After a strike, electricity from the lightning will normally travel through the conductive metal skin of the aircraft and then exit, in most cases, causing little or no damage. Short-term problems with aircraft instruments and lighting are sometimes reported.
You originally wrote:
You did not mention "Landing" as being excluded from your selection. Depends on definition of "Landing" - they were not at the point of touching down, rather they were on the approach (as I wrote)...
... and there has not been a single serious incident (on western planes) in the last 50 years.
You did not mention "Landing" as being excluded from your selection. Depends on definition of "Landing" - they were not at the point of touching down, rather they were on the approach (as I wrote)...
You originally wrote:
You did not mention "Landing" as being excluded from your selection. Depends on definition of "Landing" - they were not at the point of touching down, rather they were on the approach (as I wrote)...
You did not mention "Landing" as being excluded from your selection. Depends on definition of "Landing" - they were not at the point of touching down, rather they were on the approach (as I wrote)...
Well yes, the landing gear was already lowered and it is still unknown if the lightning caused a total failure or not.
But the plane crashed due to a broken wing which was not directly damage by any lightning.
What would be the probability of them even finding any wreckage in the open ocean?
Actually every plane is hit by a lightning once a year and nothing happens.
Thunderstorms pose many other risks to planes though.
That been said, a direct hit could induce small currents that could affect electronic systems (and a sort of short circuit was reported by the plane automatically before it disappeared)
Thunderstorms pose many other risks to planes though.
That been said, a direct hit could induce small currents that could affect electronic systems (and a sort of short circuit was reported by the plane automatically before it disappeared)
This is of course all just speculation, but from the reports so far, lightning AND weather/turbulance appear to be major factors.
My question is, could turbulance by itself catastrophically disrupt a jetliner like this in cruise flight??
My heart goes out to the families, such a sad situation. I really hope the root cause is discovered and safety improved.
The effects of lightning on aircraft are generally minimal, although the consequences of the interaction can be catastrophic...
Lightning damage is usually divided into ‘‘direct’’ and ‘‘indirect’’ (or ‘‘induced’’) effects. Direct effects occur at the points of the lightning contact and include holes in metal skins (see also Section 4.1), puncturing or splintering of non-metallic structures such as the plastic radomes that cover the radars located at the front of aircraft, welding or roughening of moveable hinges and bearings, damage to antennas and lights located at aircraft extremities, and fuel ignition.
Indirect effects are those produced by deleterious voltages and currents induced within the aircraft by the lightning electric and magnetic fields and include upset or damage to any of the many aircraft electronic systems.
http://www.lightning.ece.ufl.edu/PDF/Progr...iencespaper.pdf
Lightning damage is usually divided into ‘‘direct’’ and ‘‘indirect’’ (or ‘‘induced’’) effects. Direct effects occur at the points of the lightning contact and include holes in metal skins (see also Section 4.1), puncturing or splintering of non-metallic structures such as the plastic radomes that cover the radars located at the front of aircraft, welding or roughening of moveable hinges and bearings, damage to antennas and lights located at aircraft extremities, and fuel ignition.
Indirect effects are those produced by deleterious voltages and currents induced within the aircraft by the lightning electric and magnetic fields and include upset or damage to any of the many aircraft electronic systems.
http://www.lightning.ece.ufl.edu/PDF/Progr...iencespaper.pdf
I wonder where you get this idea - the difference in weight of a few PAXs will not significantly alter the chances of a successful diching...
I imagine you know better than I do, but still if the plane did ditch then fewer passengers might make it easier/more likely to be able to get out into a life raft or whatever it is that they have all folded up. But would not the extra weight of the passengers, luggage and the fuel needed to carry those extra passengers make the plane heavier or is it minimal compared to the overall weight of the plane? Sort of on the lines of something empty floating well up, but when fully laden, it would be much lower in the water.
What would be the probability of them even finding any wreckage in the open ocean?
78%
You don't justify your 78%, Krieg, but who am I to doubt it?
What I do know is that even in 1954 it proved possible to recover the wreckage of the British De Havilland Comet* that had suddenly and inexplicably disappeared at altitude after taking off from Rome, despite this lying 500 feet (150 m) below sea level at an at first uncertain location. Since then things have substantially improved in all directions.
*(the world's first commercially-successful jet airliner)
What I do know is that even in 1954 it proved possible to recover the wreckage of the British De Havilland Comet* that had suddenly and inexplicably disappeared at altitude after taking off from Rome, despite this lying 500 feet (150 m) below sea level at an at first uncertain location. Since then things have substantially improved in all directions.
*(the world's first commercially-successful jet airliner)
My prayers are with the passengers and their families.
I'm surprised funf has not been on here berating you all for not commenting on North Korea
Why? Did a passenger jet [s]crash[/s] disappear there too?
She's been busy discussing nappies on another thread.
Obviously more people have died on the world's roads today but I guess it's the idea of all these people passing from perceived safety to their deaths within moments and their complete helplessness in that situation that makes the news so awful.
I made the mistake of looking at the readers´ comments section of the NYT covering this accident. The amount of nationalist bashing of Airbus and of European airlines that is going on there is quite surprising. Even worse, the NYT is highlighting this hogwash as "editor's selections": http://community.nytimes.com/article/comme...ml?s=1&pg=2
What a crap newspaper the NYT has turned into over the years.
I made the mistake of looking at the readers´ comments section of the NYT covering this accident. The amount of nationalist bashing of Airbus and of European airlines that is going on there is quite surprising. Even worse, the NYT is highlighting this hogwash as "editor's selections": http://community.nytimes.com/article/comme...ml?s=1&pg=2
What a crap newspaper the NYT has turned into over the years.
At this stage I just hope that they get the bodies back for the reletavies to at least give them a proper burial.
Spmewhat unlikely I would think, it's going to be miracle if they find the bits of the plane.
Just found out that the lone Canadian on the flight was the brother of my dentist... small world and quite sad indeed.
You don't justify your 78%, Krieg, but who am I to doubt it?
One expert said that on TV. He said it was an statistic based on previous experiences.
So I already have an irrational fear of people dear to me flying and crashing. Having them disappear in a storm would be terrible... Just thinking of those people who were going on a holiday to Paris, or returning from a great holiday in Brazil...
What would be the probability of them even finding any wreckage in the open ocean?
if it was some sort of explosion. i doubt much would be left to be found.
whatever depris that hit the water would have been destroyed on impact of the ocean depending on the speed.
Some stuff usually floats - often life jackets and that sort of thing. Some bits of the fuselage may also be bouyant enough. Depends how it went into the water though really - I guess the plane could go in, more or less in one piece, and then sink leaving no trace bar a bit of oil. I'd hazard a guess that that's doubtful and that they'll find one or two pieces today.
Oh stop waffling, you lot. We need an expert on this.
djcrazy, calling djcrazy...
djcrazy, calling djcrazy...
Jews, working together with the American government of course. But not the official one, oh no. The secret one... can't say more they are watching me all the t...
It looks like a former housemate of mine may have been on the flight. I do have more or less 40 former housemates, but only one Brazilian one who was travelling with the three Irish girls who were named as being on the plane.
Fuck.
Fuck.
A family friend was also on the plane. Apparantly he had to take a earlier flight than planned to attend a business meeting. My heart goes out to his family in Rio.
AIR FRANCE 447 - BRAZILIAN AIR FORCE SAYS DEBRIS FOUND - BAF says fuel, debris, were found 600-800 km (varying reports) from Fernando de Noronha
Yep - BBC have that headline, but a story with it that doesn't mention debris.
Edit: and now appears under 'Breaking News'.
Edit: and now appears under 'Breaking News'.
Floating debris have been found in the search area by the Brazilian air force. It cannot be verified as part of the Air France plane, but that is the speculation at this point.
BBC, CNN
BBC, CNN
WEll, miracles do happen if you read my Post from earlier.
No further news received in the last 5 minutes.
Latest from the BBC Plane searchers spot ocean debris (BBC News)
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