And another thing . . . . why in such an ordered and efficient city as Munich is there absolutely no concept of swimming pool etiquette?
Trying to get a few peaceful lengths in (no double entendres please) at Das Volksbad last night was an exercise in extreme patience. Groups of young and old female friends chatting along as they breast-stroked down huge swathes of water in synchronised fighter formations of min. three.
The other locals swim around and over each other like random atoms.
Same with Nordbad.
I don't want to trek up to Olympia just to enjoy an enforced lane regime.
In London you'd get told to shove off back to the slow lane and bashed to the bottom to drown!
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Swimming pool etiquette and lane regimes
Anarchy more like!
I also find it strange that 90% of the swimmers swim breaststroke; In the US, it is 90% crawl; with only the elderly swimming breaststroke. Just odd to me that these young german men and women choose to swim breaststroke
The breaststroke is the first stroke learned in most (if not all) german swim courses. I don't know what way it's done in the US, but that might have something to do with it.
I'm not a crawl fascist.
People pay their money and are entitled to doggy paddle if that "floats their boat".
By why do they not exercise even a modicum of common sense and consideration by staying away from the crawlers and butterflyers?
Its the height of selfishness, and typifies (as far as I'm concerned) the utter rudeness and lack of concept of personal space with which these people excel.
We should get swimming bells, like cycle bells. Run down any critter in the wrong lane like the Wehrmacht cyclists auf die Straße!
People pay their money and are entitled to doggy paddle if that "floats their boat".
By why do they not exercise even a modicum of common sense and consideration by staying away from the crawlers and butterflyers?
Its the height of selfishness, and typifies (as far as I'm concerned) the utter rudeness and lack of concept of personal space with which these people excel.
We should get swimming bells, like cycle bells. Run down any critter in the wrong lane like the Wehrmacht cyclists auf die Straße!
I want one of these for swimming but sadly I was only able to afford one of these
@yeti
Interesting, as crawl is usually the first stroke taught. But even so, the breaststroke is a much more relaxed stroke and I understand why elderly people prefer it, but the younger generations (if they are in the pool to exercise) would get more benefit from the crawl.
I would compare it to running and powerwalking. Both are for exercise, but how many younger people say, I am going out for a power walk??
Not wrong, just strange from my cultural background. And I find it also stranger in Germany since the average german suits up for any sport to the maximum. i.e. if you are out for a wander in the woods, they have their rucksack, their water, their walking poles (for flat hikes, young people)??? Or if you ever see someone riding their motorcycle without the full padded leather suit, walking in the pedestrian stroll on their Sunday sojourn, of going to the mini-golf places and seeing a man with three putters and eighteen different balls with different resiliency??? I just find it strange that the equivalent would be for me seeing every German swimming butterfly and not the breaststroke.
Interesting, as crawl is usually the first stroke taught. But even so, the breaststroke is a much more relaxed stroke and I understand why elderly people prefer it, but the younger generations (if they are in the pool to exercise) would get more benefit from the crawl.
I would compare it to running and powerwalking. Both are for exercise, but how many younger people say, I am going out for a power walk??
Not wrong, just strange from my cultural background. And I find it also stranger in Germany since the average german suits up for any sport to the maximum. i.e. if you are out for a wander in the woods, they have their rucksack, their water, their walking poles (for flat hikes, young people)??? Or if you ever see someone riding their motorcycle without the full padded leather suit, walking in the pedestrian stroll on their Sunday sojourn, of going to the mini-golf places and seeing a man with three putters and eighteen different balls with different resiliency??? I just find it strange that the equivalent would be for me seeing every German swimming butterfly and not the breaststroke.
QUOTE (More tea @ Vicar?,Feb 2 2005, 10:09 AM)
why in such an ordered and efficient city as Munich is there absolutely no concept of swimming pool etiquette?
Because inside everybody is an anarchist, and this is how they let that alter-ego out, over here?
Is there anywhere in Munich that you can buy torpedoes?
I could gleefully drown people swimming backstroke in a crowded pool.
And how I enjoy the dirty looks from the chattering classes as I try to swim through the gap...
Anyway, crawl is a workout stroke, many swim to stretch and relax and for that, breast ist best. Most sport swimmers belong to clubs which use lanes.
But why expect people to behave differently in a pool compared to outside. Queueing doesn't really exist here, people often walk into you in the street, so why should it be different in water?
And how I enjoy the dirty looks from the chattering classes as I try to swim through the gap...
Anyway, crawl is a workout stroke, many swim to stretch and relax and for that, breast ist best. Most sport swimmers belong to clubs which use lanes.
But why expect people to behave differently in a pool compared to outside. Queueing doesn't really exist here, people often walk into you in the street, so why should it be different in water?
they do licquorice ones at Kaufhof, they can do a lot of damage mixed with chlorine.
@brokenm
The germans are gear hounds which is great for companies making the stuff.
I'm irish so I have one goretex jacket that I use for everything, walking, skiing, hiking; sure it looks tatty but it keeps me dry and warm. And provides a perfect setting for my natural good looks or maybe I'm thinking of something else. I also used my telescopic walking poles for skiing. Plus I can't afford to buy the perfect gear for everything. If had the money of course I'ld buy everything
The average german seems to have a complex about having the right gear: it's a short cut to acceptance in the sport.
However the fully padded leather motorcycle suit is intelligent, especially if you've ever talked to a medical person who has spent some time picking gravel and other foreign bodies out of some thick bikers hide or trying to arrange skin grafts. When they bring out the all over body airbag I'll buy one of them as well
The germans are gear hounds which is great for companies making the stuff.
I'm irish so I have one goretex jacket that I use for everything, walking, skiing, hiking; sure it looks tatty but it keeps me dry and warm. And provides a perfect setting for my natural good looks or maybe I'm thinking of something else. I also used my telescopic walking poles for skiing. Plus I can't afford to buy the perfect gear for everything. If had the money of course I'ld buy everything
The average german seems to have a complex about having the right gear: it's a short cut to acceptance in the sport.
However the fully padded leather motorcycle suit is intelligent, especially if you've ever talked to a medical person who has spent some time picking gravel and other foreign bodies out of some thick bikers hide or trying to arrange skin grafts. When they bring out the all over body airbag I'll buy one of them as well
@vicar: I feel your frustration and have had the same experience. as a former big time swimmer, all I want to do is get in the water, swim a 1000 or so and go home. but noooo, that is not possible (most of the time).
it seems that there is a system. some (most) public pools are designated for the casual / un-professional water displacer. BUT, some pools (Olympiahalle z.B.) do have designated LANES for real swimming. note: this does not mean that anyone there understands circle swimming or fast lane / slow lane concepts - it can be just as frustrating.
also, be sure to check (if possible beforehand) if the pool is closed for use by swim teams. this happens a lot.
tip: last sunday I was in Olympia Park, and saw that the pool was nearly empty - I wanted to jump in and do some laps, but didn't have proper attire, nor would girlfriend allow me to go, well, "freestyle".
tip 2: the massages at Volksbad are very reasonably priced - €35 for a basic 1 hour massage (make reservations), for higher prices shiatsu (sp?) and other massage styles are available. these are legit massages (no "happy ending" for the TT pervs).
it seems that there is a system. some (most) public pools are designated for the casual / un-professional water displacer. BUT, some pools (Olympiahalle z.B.) do have designated LANES for real swimming. note: this does not mean that anyone there understands circle swimming or fast lane / slow lane concepts - it can be just as frustrating.
also, be sure to check (if possible beforehand) if the pool is closed for use by swim teams. this happens a lot.
tip: last sunday I was in Olympia Park, and saw that the pool was nearly empty - I wanted to jump in and do some laps, but didn't have proper attire, nor would girlfriend allow me to go, well, "freestyle".
tip 2: the massages at Volksbad are very reasonably priced - €35 for a basic 1 hour massage (make reservations), for higher prices shiatsu (sp?) and other massage styles are available. these are legit massages (no "happy ending" for the TT pervs).
@brokenm
Entirely agree about Fritz and his "all the gear, no idea" thing. I'm a 3.18 marathoner. Down for Berlin this year. I absolutely crack up everytime I do my English Gardens loop. Have you ever seen so many hundreds of Euros worth of top gear on such crap runners?!
I'm all for everyone running . . . young, old, beginners, competitors. Its great.
But you get these "professional stretchers" . . . you know what I mean: the stunning couple in brand new gear, spending hours stretching on the most picturesque bridge at the most picturesque part of the Gardens.
Its like a photo shoot for a Marks & Spencers catalogue.
I bet they go home the moment no one is looking on.
AND WHY does every frigging German runner wear skin tight tracky B's?? Christ, if they were making a pace I could understand the wind resistence argument (!)
Entirely agree about Fritz and his "all the gear, no idea" thing. I'm a 3.18 marathoner. Down for Berlin this year. I absolutely crack up everytime I do my English Gardens loop. Have you ever seen so many hundreds of Euros worth of top gear on such crap runners?!
I'm all for everyone running . . . young, old, beginners, competitors. Its great.
But you get these "professional stretchers" . . . you know what I mean: the stunning couple in brand new gear, spending hours stretching on the most picturesque bridge at the most picturesque part of the Gardens.
Its like a photo shoot for a Marks & Spencers catalogue.
I bet they go home the moment no one is looking on.
AND WHY does every frigging German runner wear skin tight tracky B's?? Christ, if they were making a pace I could understand the wind resistence argument (!)
@Katrina
I take it you are a breast swimmer. It is just different, not wrong. But in the US people swim a stroke to workout, if they want to stretch and relax they play in the pool. Underwater games...I could describe many more, but the point is it is strange to me that they choose to swim breaststroke, and I would argue with you about the kinsesiology about the strokes and what is the best for stretching and relaxing. But that is not the point of my post,only that it is a cultural difference, and not which is the best stroke to do.
I take it you are a breast swimmer. It is just different, not wrong. But in the US people swim a stroke to workout, if they want to stretch and relax they play in the pool. Underwater games...I could describe many more, but the point is it is strange to me that they choose to swim breaststroke, and I would argue with you about the kinsesiology about the strokes and what is the best for stretching and relaxing. But that is not the point of my post,only that it is a cultural difference, and not which is the best stroke to do.
@Yeti (last rant I promise)
Too right about the gear.
People from the Isles have a "tall sunflower" approach to gear. If you fork out thousands you had better be able to use it.
There is a balance tho - the amount of runners in London treading the pavements in old Dunlop Green Flash trainers from the 70s makes me wince. That really does long term damage to knees and back.
But I wear the same functioning wick-a-way shirt and shorts that I've had for years. They work, they look tatty, but I'm happy.
Dublin marathon was perfect example. Never seen so many grissled oldtimers in tatty gear coming in under 3.00.
Shoes I do change regularly every 350+ miles (which is expensive) but one has to, or the old IT Band and Achilles Tendonitis start playing up.
In this place "looking the part" makes you Olympic Champ!
Shicky micky shit.
Too right about the gear.
People from the Isles have a "tall sunflower" approach to gear. If you fork out thousands you had better be able to use it.
There is a balance tho - the amount of runners in London treading the pavements in old Dunlop Green Flash trainers from the 70s makes me wince. That really does long term damage to knees and back.
But I wear the same functioning wick-a-way shirt and shorts that I've had for years. They work, they look tatty, but I'm happy.
Dublin marathon was perfect example. Never seen so many grissled oldtimers in tatty gear coming in under 3.00.
Shoes I do change regularly every 350+ miles (which is expensive) but one has to, or the old IT Band and Achilles Tendonitis start playing up.
In this place "looking the part" makes you Olympic Champ!
Shicky micky shit.
@Yeti
I agree that the motorcycle suits are a safer alternative when riding a Donorcycle, but it stilol makes me laugh when they have enough in their packs to change out of these when in the middle of the summer they walk through the picturesque towns. They drive thirty minutes to go there and then walk for around in these suits for five hours and then a half hour ride home. It seems more like they are wanting an excuse to walk around and say, "yes I am a profi motorcyclist".
And I agree for small slow accidents these suits would help, but for the average accident. But sometimes when you feel safer you ride safer.
I agree that the motorcycle suits are a safer alternative when riding a Donorcycle, but it stilol makes me laugh when they have enough in their packs to change out of these when in the middle of the summer they walk through the picturesque towns. They drive thirty minutes to go there and then walk for around in these suits for five hours and then a half hour ride home. It seems more like they are wanting an excuse to walk around and say, "yes I am a profi motorcyclist".
And I agree for small slow accidents these suits would help, but for the average accident. But sometimes when you feel safer you ride safer.
@mtv
Well a german runner will usually have to change his gear every season to stay trendy. Agree with you about the bad shoes though.
I actually have a pair of those tight things but I only wear them for the amusement of any one who sees me out running, so I usually run in the dark. (I might also have lived here too long without the influence of TT)
The only advantage is that when they get wet the legs don't flap around the place. Plus the embarrasment of displaying your exact body contours means you can warm up without stretching.
I think the whole gear thing is a standard german "fitting in / not sticking out " attitude.
This is one of my favourite rant subjects so I'll stop now before we go into the cordinating mountain bike/ helmet / shoes thing.
Well a german runner will usually have to change his gear every season to stay trendy. Agree with you about the bad shoes though.
I actually have a pair of those tight things but I only wear them for the amusement of any one who sees me out running, so I usually run in the dark. (I might also have lived here too long without the influence of TT)
The only advantage is that when they get wet the legs don't flap around the place. Plus the embarrasment of displaying your exact body contours means you can warm up without stretching.
I think the whole gear thing is a standard german "fitting in / not sticking out " attitude.
This is one of my favourite rant subjects so I'll stop now before we go into the cordinating mountain bike/ helmet / shoes thing.
speaking of running shoes, anyone know where I can find some New Balance shoes in Munich? or are there any other brands that are available in variable widths?
@brokenm
Not a motorcyclist (wish I was) but I think I know what you mean . . .
Those blokes in the summer-time doing the John Wayne, looking like Capirossi or Biaggi.
Look more like a bunch of overweight S&M fruit pops in all that fluorsecent...
Not a motorcyclist (wish I was) but I think I know what you mean . . .
Those blokes in the summer-time doing the John Wayne, looking like Capirossi or Biaggi.
Look more like a bunch of overweight S&M fruit pops in all that fluorsecent...
brokenm, I know that. I just do my sport outside the pool No really, I'm more of an aerobic and strength class person so go swimming to even that out (is it noticeable? Nope).
Chicago Lauf Bar should have all your running shoe needs. The former Herr Indoors did his run analysis there and bought NBs from them.
Chicago Lauf Bar should have all your running shoe needs. The former Herr Indoors did his run analysis there and bought NBs from them.
@Chicago
Mate, do not buy runners in Munich. They are so overpriced.
If you know what model you want, order them from this company in the UK who will send them to your work place at about €15 - 20 cheaper, including p.p.
www.startfitness.co.uk
Mate, do not buy runners in Munich. They are so overpriced.
If you know what model you want, order them from this company in the UK who will send them to your work place at about €15 - 20 cheaper, including p.p.
www.startfitness.co.uk
QUOTE
But you get these "professional stretchers" . . . you know what I mean: the stunning couple in brand new gear, spending hours stretching on the most picturesque bridge at the most picturesque part of the Gardens.
I also see stretching idiots at the entry to Perlacher Forest on my bike way home.
It looks bloody silly.
I am no expert on running but my boss (marathon runner) says most of it is showing off. First five minutes of a 30 min run should be slow the last five the chillout.
Stretching is pointless, except if its some tasty 25 year old babe bending over in those tight pants...
@Chicago
Try Runners Point. If you buy at one of their shops you get a very good guarantee. I've brought back shoes after two runs in the woods and they exchanged them no problem. You have to do their running style/foot analysis though. And they have NewBalance.
@Brokenm
(seriously off topic now.)
What is a Donorcycle ?
Well the leather gear is great but it's too hot if you're walking around or even standing at the lights in the summer. And it is funny to watch, don't even think about the sauna effect in tight black leather gear. But it is a big image thing. The amount of middle age Harley riders who get out the leather jacket, bandanna, stick on taatoos etc for the weekend and get back into the suit on Monday is a well known phenomena. But if they enjoy it good for them
The best protective gear won't save you if you hit a tree (they always have the right of way) but it raises your chances of reducing serious injury for most accidents. I'm a coward and I don't want any more pain in my life than necessary (unless of course it's being dealt out by Miss Eva with a rawhide whi...opps) A few friends / aquaintances in Ireland have been killed or seriously injured in relatively simple accidents because they didn't have anything better than a simple leather jacket and a pair of jeans on.
Try Runners Point. If you buy at one of their shops you get a very good guarantee. I've brought back shoes after two runs in the woods and they exchanged them no problem. You have to do their running style/foot analysis though. And they have NewBalance.
@Brokenm
(seriously off topic now.)
What is a Donorcycle ?
Well the leather gear is great but it's too hot if you're walking around or even standing at the lights in the summer. And it is funny to watch, don't even think about the sauna effect in tight black leather gear. But it is a big image thing. The amount of middle age Harley riders who get out the leather jacket, bandanna, stick on taatoos etc for the weekend and get back into the suit on Monday is a well known phenomena. But if they enjoy it good for them
The best protective gear won't save you if you hit a tree (they always have the right of way) but it raises your chances of reducing serious injury for most accidents. I'm a coward and I don't want any more pain in my life than necessary (unless of course it's being dealt out by Miss Eva with a rawhide whi...opps) A few friends / aquaintances in Ireland have been killed or seriously injured in relatively simple accidents because they didn't have anything better than a simple leather jacket and a pair of jeans on.
@Katrina
My sweet, just checked that shop on the Net and it looks like simply more shicky micky twattle . . . (sorry, having "one of those Munich days).
@Jeremy
Bang on. Stretching from cold is more perilous than simply starting your run off slowly. Ever noticed how footballers (who are professionally supervised) spend at least 15 minutes doing carefully detailed routines along the pitch side to ensure a proper stretch that doesn't tear microfibres?
Time to stretch is at the end of the exercise.
My sweet, just checked that shop on the Net and it looks like simply more shicky micky twattle . . . (sorry, having "one of those Munich days).
@Jeremy
Bang on. Stretching from cold is more perilous than simply starting your run off slowly. Ever noticed how footballers (who are professionally supervised) spend at least 15 minutes doing carefully detailed routines along the pitch side to ensure a proper stretch that doesn't tear microfibres?
Time to stretch is at the end of the exercise.
@Yeti
Donorcycle is a bad taste joke made by physicians in emergency departments. Donor-cycle. But I agree, if I ride a cycle I will wear all the gear possible, even if the risk is reduced by a small amount, I will take advantage. Except when I am in Rome. There you have no chance to survive on a motorscylce, car or if you are a pedestrian. So there I only wear a helmet!
Donorcycle is a bad taste joke made by physicians in emergency departments. Donor-cycle. But I agree, if I ride a cycle I will wear all the gear possible, even if the risk is reduced by a small amount, I will take advantage. Except when I am in Rome. There you have no chance to survive on a motorscylce, car or if you are a pedestrian. So there I only wear a helmet!
@brokenm
Thanks. I didn't spot it. Had the old brain churning through kebap jokes.
Thanks. I didn't spot it. Had the old brain churning through kebap jokes.
Had the old brain churning through kebap jokes.
Vicar, of course it is.
1. because it is in Munich
2. because the former Herr Indoors went in there *miaow* (he's not that bad really)
Just knew that they def do NBs. If you know your style then online is probably best unless you didn't mind changing brands and driving for 2 hours, then you could go to the adidas and puma company shops in Herzogenaurach. Sometimes you can get really lucky there.
1. because it is in Munich
2. because the former Herr Indoors went in there *miaow* (he's not that bad really)
Just knew that they def do NBs. If you know your style then online is probably best unless you didn't mind changing brands and driving for 2 hours, then you could go to the adidas and puma company shops in Herzogenaurach. Sometimes you can get really lucky there.
@Yeti
Re: Runners Point
You see, the new Asics GT-2100s (which I use) are €120 on their site.
www.startfitness.co.uk sent mine to my office in Munich in three days for GBP73.99!
By the way, does anyone out there want to start a sat. morning running crew? I'm desperate to get a crowd together like the old days in London. Eyeing the Munich half in the Summer in the Gardens (I hear it starts early before the heat) and then my Berlin place for September.
EVERYONE WELCOME - BOYS, GIRLS, BEGINNERS AND OLDTIMERS. The more the merrier.
Training alone is soooo crushingly dull!
Re: Runners Point
You see, the new Asics GT-2100s (which I use) are €120 on their site.
www.startfitness.co.uk sent mine to my office in Munich in three days for GBP73.99!
By the way, does anyone out there want to start a sat. morning running crew? I'm desperate to get a crowd together like the old days in London. Eyeing the Munich half in the Summer in the Gardens (I hear it starts early before the heat) and then my Berlin place for September.
EVERYONE WELCOME - BOYS, GIRLS, BEGINNERS AND OLDTIMERS. The more the merrier.
Training alone is soooo crushingly dull!
Laughing at ridiculously attired Germans is one of the things that makes my day that little bit sweeter. It is actually one of my favorite pastimes.
@MTV
I would be up for running, but I am in the beginner catergory (now for about ten years). I run without a problem forty five minutes, and can stretch that into an hour and a half.
I would be up for running, but I am in the beginner catergory (now for about ten years). I run without a problem forty five minutes, and can stretch that into an hour and a half.
@mtv.
Yeah the prices are higher but I've been trying a pair of New Balance something or others. They didn't start giving me trouble untill 30 minutes into the second run using them and Runners Point took them back no problem.
So I'll pay the 14 Euro difference for that. However it's a good tip if you already know which shoes you want. Thanks.
I'ld be up for a saturday morning run but I live out in the bogs so it would only be an irregular thing.
Besides if your're not into wearing the right gear I'm not sure if I can run with you
Yeah the prices are higher but I've been trying a pair of New Balance something or others. They didn't start giving me trouble untill 30 minutes into the second run using them and Runners Point took them back no problem.
So I'll pay the 14 Euro difference for that. However it's a good tip if you already know which shoes you want. Thanks.
I'ld be up for a saturday morning run but I live out in the bogs so it would only be an irregular thing.
Besides if your're not into wearing the right gear I'm not sure if I can run with you
MTV, please keep me informed / on the list of sat. morning garden runs. fyi, i'm no marathoner but have managed a couple 10Ks on the backside of triathlons. and i have no fashion sense...
Back to swimming...
Get in pool. Choose location where no one is in your direct line of sight for entire length of pool. Swim this line and make no deviations from. You should be able to swim as per usual. Of course, if you are going at a time of day when the pool is absolutely swamped with people (esp. old biddies) you might be out of luck. But so far I found the technique to work.
Get in pool. Choose location where no one is in your direct line of sight for entire length of pool. Swim this line and make no deviations from. You should be able to swim as per usual. Of course, if you are going at a time of day when the pool is absolutely swamped with people (esp. old biddies) you might be out of luck. But so far I found the technique to work.
The value of proper, good-looking gear can not be overstated. Our bodies are temples and it is through excersise that we honor them. Just as the ancient priests doned their finest silken robes before entering the temple, so should we when entering the sports arena.
When I see people "excersising" in clothes that have been washed to the point of losing their perfect pristine shine, I grimace. Who are they kidding? What's next, are car salesman going to stop shining their shoes? Will the pope wear palmettos in the fall?
When I see people "excersising" in clothes that have been washed to the point of losing their perfect pristine shine, I grimace. Who are they kidding? What's next, are car salesman going to stop shining their shoes? Will the pope wear palmettos in the fall?
QUOTE (brokenm @ Feb 2 2005, 10:50 am)
@Katrina
I take it you are a breast swimmer. It is just different, not wrong. But in the US people swim a stroke to workout, if they want to stretch and relax they play in the pool. Underwater games...I could describe many more, but the point is it is strange to me that they choose to swim breaststroke, and I would argue with you about the kinsesiology about the strokes and what is the best for stretching and relaxing. But that is not the point of my post,only that it is a cultural difference, and not which is the best stroke to do.
I take it you are a breast swimmer. It is just different, not wrong. But in the US people swim a stroke to workout, if they want to stretch and relax they play in the pool. Underwater games...I could describe many more, but the point is it is strange to me that they choose to swim breaststroke, and I would argue with you about the kinsesiology about the strokes and what is the best for stretching and relaxing. But that is not the point of my post,only that it is a cultural difference, and not which is the best stroke to do.
a revival...
i went swimming yesterday for the first time in many a moons (just cause it was too slippery to jog) and the crawl is usually my stroke of choice cause that is what i learned in school. but i barely got in a few laps of crawl because then the pool got crowded.
i can do the stroke-stroke-breathe technique, but i would have to lift my head up too much to look forward to see if some ass is in my lane, so i stuck to breast stroke just cause i can see better. what to me is frightening is that a lot of people don't dip their heads. that must be horrible for the neck and shoulders!
i complained in the ladies forum, i don't feel any real muscle pain. i was tired afterwards and my pulse was up, but i didn't feel i had a "workout" like with crawling. do i need to just do twice as many breaststroke laps as crawls?
Anyway, MTV should know one doesn't go the Volksbad for the swimming...
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