German landlords & discrimination of foreigners

Does anyone else ever feel that they dont get apartments based on the fact that we are 'Auslanders' ?

I have applied for two apartments now, the first time I got told the apartment had been given to someone else, the second time I have been told the owner wants to sell rather than rent. Both times however the apartments have been advertised again after I got rejected.

Perhaps I shouldnt jump to the predjudist conclusion, but you cant help thinking that. Not that it bothers me anyway.

Any way to cut the story short, I move out of my apartment in 3 weeks So the rush is on now. Basically just want a 1 room place and dont want to pay more than 450-500€

If anyone knows of anything, let me know.

L8r

Ken

Sounds a bit strange. Where did you find these apartments? I mean normally there are queues around the block for apartment viewings, so they normally would not have to advertise again, just take their pick. Anyway, looking for apartments the usual way (even for Germans) will lead to loads of rejections. I think the last time I got an apartment I went to about 15 viewings and had a choice of 2 in the end. BUT, I did also have that feeling that some of the rejections were only because I was a foreigner. Shit happens, you will find something, but it will not fall into your lap.

Lie about your profession - when I looked around, faces fell as I was wearing jeans and a t-shirt. They automatically assumed I was a student, but when I said I was a Notar, faces lit up, and I wasn't rejected for any of the ones I looked at.

In fact on the second one, I even had a letter from my company guaranteeing that they would cover all costs should I fail to pay.

Can you speak German? If not, the landlord has a fair reason to reject you. Would you want a tennent who you can't communicate with?

Do you have a permanent contract for your job? If not, that's also a fair enough reason for them to reject you. Would you want to rent to someone whos likely to leave in 6 months, so you have to start searching for another tennent?

Meine Deutsch is pretty crap. But hey if someone doesnt want to take me on the account I'm a foriegner, then thats fine, I would just rather they tell me up front rather than re-advertise their apartments.

Well I have been in Munich for 11 months now, but with my company for 10 years, which I always put down on the forms anyway.

And even though I am British, I was born in Germany.

www.mrlodge.de are an agency specifically for foreigners, but their stuff is more expensive, and you have to pay them a fee, but on the upside, they are pretty helpful and since most of the girls there seem to have lived in the US, their customer service is much closer to what you would expect in England...

IMHO, the problem with a lot of people apartment hunting in Munich is that they have ridiculously unrealistic expectations. Know what you're willing to spend, know what sized apartment you want to live in, know where such price X size apartments are and then go get one. This business of 50 people at a viewing is something that used to happen 4-5 years ago and even then I think it was blown out of all proportion. I've moved now 3 times in Munich and each time there was no problem finding available places and there was no problem with me being an Auslander. One of them I found in Kurz & Fundig for Gods sake. Granted it helps if you speak German or have someone to do that for you, but even if not then it's not so hard.

Where did you find the other ones keydeck?

I've only moved once until now, but it was a little harder than you say. In my case I was looking for a 2-3 room place in the city centre, 60-70qm. I don't know if that is the most looked for size but every viewing I went to had a good load of people there. I think what went against me was that most of the others viewing were couples and thus 2 incomes (even if the 2 together were less than mine ). But as said it wasn't as tough as I thought it would be, I mean 15 or so viewings over 2 or 3 weeks and then a choice of 3 in the end is pretty reasonable. I will be moving again after christmas (hopefully).

One was from the initimable Norbert and his associates at Mr. Lodge and one out of SüdDeutscheZeitung.

Good luck with your post-Christmas move.

From: Noisy Neighbours & Quiet Hours
That's not surprising in this place. I know several people who have been told outright by prospective landlords that they can't have the apartment, because they don't rent to foreigners.

me included! When I first moved to Munich I couldn't even get an appointment to view, co I was a johnny foreigner.

Then my wife started making the phone calls and on two occasions she was told "wir vermieten nicht an scheiß Ossies" (transl. we don't rent to f*ing easterners) despite the fact that wife comes from the Rhineland and has a dinstintive Rhineland accent.

We were also "schimpfed" in a Biergarten" by a waitress for coming to Muich and taking away all the jobs

makes you wonder why companies would rather bring in foreign workers than try to hire one of "their own"? don't know what you do graham, but wouldn't a german be good enough? i seriously doubt you were cheaper.

i know i got my job the old fashioned way: i applied for it.

what does one do in a situation like that? i mean, you want more beer, right?

Just to put this into perspective. My colleague had several rejections from prospective landlords before finally getting an apartment.

She is Bavarian, female, attractive, mid 30s, friendly and earns probably EUR80K a year and always elegantly dressed.

I am a foreigner, on a rolling 3 month contract, male and I have always been offered the appartments I went to see. (7 plus since Ive been here)

I guess it just depends.

So, all those visitng waitresses at oktoberfest better watch out this year...

P

Do you carry gun when you are looking for an apartment?

Not even. I actually got almost stalked by one landlady. She couldnt understand why I didnt want to live in her expensive hovel in Grunwald. Ironically I had to lie and say that Id found somewhere else after shed phoned 4 times even though I told from the off I wasnt interested.

Having said that I think I have been lucky plus I really think things have got better over the last 2 years.

I am moving to Munich next month, so maybe I should ask your help to get an apartment...

To be honest I think you'll find discrimination anywhere. From what I've gathered, in Germany you're more likely to run into this sort of trouble if you're turkish, but the Germans seem to like us Island Monkeys better. In fact I'd say you're probably likely to run into far less landlord discrimination in Germany than a German would back in Blighty...

But if you don't speak the language then - as pointed out by Mr Trotville - it could well be a problem if they don't feel they're going to be able to communicate with you. On the other hand, maybe you can find a landlord with a buxom young daughter who wants to practice her English

[edit] Dammit, I wish people would stop replying to year old posts...I need to remember to read the dates before I reply.

I just thought of another tidbit that belongs in this thread.

Before I moved here, there was a woman here looking for apartments for my husband and me. At one point, she asked me to send her pictures. We thought that was a bit odd, but sent them off. We only found out later that the reason she wanted the pictures was because the landlord of an apartment she was looking at wanted to make sure we weren't black!

Just a general warning to all you people looking for an apartment: If it is offered by an engineer by the name of Freystadt in Laim, then dont bother applying.

Two months ago, my Romanian girlfriend and I started looking for flats in Munich as she was transferred from Regensburg to Munich. After much searching we found the perfect place for us. It was cheap, located well in Laim, and had three bedrooms and a great balcony. We spoke to the administrator (Verwaltung) and he gave us a verbal contract for the place. In fact, we even purchased furniture and put it in the place in agreement with the verbal contract. However, when the administrator approached the owner and informed him of the new tenants, the owner refused! His claim was that we were a financial risk as my girlfriend is still in the 'trial period.'

Ok, this can happen. As such, we sent the owner an email offering to pay a full years rent as a bond. We figured if he was going to be difficult, then we should grin and bear it. We even had rich friends of ours from Hessen go in as 'security.' However, the man involved refused to listen to our offer, nor would he answer phone calls, nor would he discuss with our friends in Hessen the possibility of an even higher bond.

In short, no matter how much money we were going to lay on the table, this sod was not going to let foreigners into his flat. In the meantime we have found another place, but this experience really reminded me that there are still Germans who are convinced that Hitler is still in his bunker waiting for the right time to come back.

I have lived in different parts of Germany for many years now, and my Romanian girlfriend has often had difficulties because of her background, but this experience really told me I wasnt in Germany any more, nor in Bavaria, but in "Ober-Bayern."

To be fair, I have made many a good friend in Munich, and I certainly dont hold an entire city responsible for the actions of one man. However I thought I would share this in case some of you have difficulty looking for a place, just remember, it could be worse!

Topics merged by admin

The landlord's apartment is his property, it isn't a housing project, so it's his right to choose who he rents the place out to. Maybe it was racism, maybe it wasn't - you'll never know for sure.

Oh yeah... welcome to Toytown.

Thanks for the welcome.

As the owner never met us and refused to speak to us and ignored any amount of money offered it really only leaves few reasons for his behaviour.

If he had met us, and refused us, then fine. Thats his right, and thats tough biccies. On the other hand, it was his attitude that has angered us the most (and the Verwalter too, he was far from impressed with the owner)

It's hardly racism if it applies to any foreigner. A lot of Germans don't want foreigners simply because they are (or are perceived to be on a different playing field). Enough people had problems with foreigners that they'd rather not have the hassle.

Once your girlfriendsaid she didn't have the contract, that was it. You might be willing to get into the hassle of bonds and third-party measures but the landlord clearly isn't. Why you would have offered negative information about yourself is beyond me.

It's only racism if it turns out this guy is really English and hates Pikeys. Otherwise, STFU. You chose to come to a country not known as a hotbed of open-armed welcoming of any strangers.

woof.

Sounds like the landlord isn't the only racist...

Maybe if you do away with the nonsense about Hitler and relaize that the guy (like many Aussies, Amis and Canadians) is just an asshole you'll have a better time in this great country. If not, please take Dawg's advise and keep your ignorant and naive comments to yourself.

Tim,

please read again, I did not call all Germans that.

Nor did I offer any negative information of myself when we applied for the place.

And, does it make me a racist for letting some steam off about an asshole? If that is the case there are many threads on this forum that would make many here racist.

Get off your high horse! Perhaps I should have said Xenophobic rather than racist regarding the landlord and perhaps my comment was 'overboard' but I was also letting off a little steam, and I do infact know from the Verwalter that the landlord involved has extreme right leanings!

I dont appreciate being called a racist, especially when being only partially and hence misquoted. How dare you accuse me like that without even asking me to explain what I meant. If you thought I went overboard in my comments then PM me. I ask you also to refrain from making comments about my apparent 'ignorance' or being 'naieve' when you do not know me.

Xenophobic is spot on werombi. better than racist.

When I was looking at a place, one guy insisted on seeing me in person. his reasoning, b/c although i said i was american, he wanted to make sure i wasn't black. he told me this in person & i said politely, thank you, but if that's his attitude, he might start getting fixated on my big africa lips. so i rjeected the apartment flat out.

lots of landlords bias based on salary & i, unfortunately, have been rejected a few apartments b/c i didn't earn enough. damn yuppies!

I was looking for a place for my son and his American wife. The admin guy hemmed and hawed and said he hated asking it, but is Kate by any means black? The owners need to know. I laughed outright and said, no, she's of Scottish origin and has red hair, is that ok? I didn't take the apartment.

Has nothing to do with rent, but it's a well-known fact that east Germans here in Munich get paid less than west Germans. That obviously extends to eastern Europeans. I don't know if you can really call it racism. Just plain arrogance thinking they're better than everyone else. On second thoughts, maybe that is racism.

My romanian Girlfriend often deals with the xenophobia of the Eastern Europeans.

Many Germans feel that Russians, Romanians and Poles are coming here to accept welfare and disrupting their way of life. Unfortunatly, most Germans cant tell the difference between a Rumanian accent and a Russian accent and they assume she is Russian. Add to this a general distrust of Germany for the EU expansion into the east and what it is 'costing' them. There are many factors that go into xenophobia against the Eastern Europeans, and many of these factors are founded in a certain degree of truth. That hasnt however helped my Girlfriend and I despite the fact she studied here. I would even go so far to say that often it is worse being a Russian/Eastern European here than someone of Asian or African heritage.

I'm with Tim.

What's wrong with people from Oberbayern? I happen to come from there and take offense to your prejudice (if not racist) comment.

When I first moved here in '94, it was hard to get an apartment, as my german was not that good, I was a foreigner, and I look like a mix of Ukrainian and Russian. I was often treated badly at shops, but I eventually got over it, by speaking my Canadian English, then they would try to kiss my ass, as I was all of a sudden 'a good' foreigner. I still see it sometimes, there is an Ukrainian Dentist in our office, and alot of people don't want to be treated by her.
I still get comments as my German is okay, but I still make grammatical errors. So, who cares, as long as they get my point.
But it makes me wonder, how I treated immigrants to Canada? Did I make comments or prejudge?

I suppose it depends on how you define "racist". In countries like the US or the UK with large populations of african origin (and South Asian in the case of the UK, East Asian in the case of the US), racism tends to refer to discrimination of such groups. In other countries, such as Ireland which was pretty "mono ethnic, mono cultural" (a David Trimble quote) up until about 10 years ago, "racism" is commonly used when refering to discrimination against Polish or Latvian or other eastern european workers. Although they also could be considered as belonging to the same "caucasian race" as the native Irish.

According to Nazi idealogy, someone of Slavic or Latin origin most definetly belonged to a different race as a person of Germanic blood. And I think even today when refering to "Rassismus" in Germany, it also includes discrimination against Eastern Europeans. Based on such definitions, discriminating against a Romanian could indeed be considered racist.

First of all, you're from Allgaü which is Swabian, not Bavarian and secondly, it was a play on words which I find very true. The Bavarians are always priding themselves on how much better they are than the rest of Germany. They're so bad that they start distinguishing amongst themselves with Upper Bavaria being better than Lower Bavaria and Francony being even further down the list. Imagien what they're like to East Europeans...

And you have been to other parts of Germany than Bavaria? Did you ever heard what - for example - people from the north sea have to say about Bavarians?

Just wanted to say, that this is not a special bavarian thing to do... you'll find it all over the world..

Umm wrong. Allgäu, at least where I'm from in Kempten is in Bavaria. And regardless the prejudice isn't any less insulting coming from you.

No. No. No. You all got it vrong. Ze Bavarians zey are very very afraid ov Vampires. Zat is ze big, big problem here. He should not have disclozed to his landlord zat ze fair lady waz in fact from a country known to have a most terrible problem with ze vampires! He should try to find an apartment in a vampire-friendly neighbourhood somevere.
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But you made the claim that some are and directed it at a man who you named. You could be sued for libel (as could EB for allowing the comment to remain).

Then how did he know about your girlfriend's Probezeit?

With your Nazi reference, yep.

Perhaps you should have used the correct word indeed. Claiming racism is not only disingenuous, using it incorrectly and claiming it constantly dilutes the real cases of it. Too much crying, "Wolf!" Improperly calling someone racist can set you up for an expensive legal proceeding.


So why would you want to give someone like that your money?

I bet the man you named also doesn't appreciate it.

And how fucking dare you post such shit when you know full well what the word "racism" means. That you used it incorrectly doesn't make us wrong.

I don't need to know you to know that your posts show you to falsely accuse others. If you post on a (more or less) public forum you can expect that others will respond. If you want to whinge and bitch and complain and control the comments which follow it, I'd suggest this morass of mediocrity.

woof.

I have lived in Regensburg, Hessen, Trier, Berlin and Dresden and one thing has remained consistent, and that is a definate differentiation between 'Germany' and Bavaria, and even whilst in Regensburg, there is often a contrast made between 'Oberbayern' and the rest of Bavaria. This is far from saying that Oberbayern is full of xenophobes, but there is certainly a minority who hold themselves better than the other Germans.

..and your point is? In Moenchengladbach I often heard the saying "southernly of the Main the Balkan begins.." - any better?

Who cares? You can get upset about so-called racists or xenophobes (your words, not mine), or you can give your money to "normal", friendly people. You can find these people everywhere - even in Germany. There's only one thing uglier than a racist, and that's a person who walks around calling other people racists.

just responding that there is a definate identity differentiation between non-bavarian Germany and bavaria.
that and that this contrast is much stronger than the differentiation of identity between other states/areas of Germany.

BD got the smackdown goin on...

A few questions.

By referring to one man as a racist, and that there are still some Nazis in Germany, how does that infer that I MUST associate the entire German race with Nazism? Logically, I referred to a sub grouping of a group, yet some of you are insinuating that I have referred to the group as a whole. By the same note, if I were to call one American a hick, and that some Americans are hicks, does that mean that I must therefor be saying that all americans are hicks? I certainly dont think so.

Now, when a German refers to another German as a nazi, is that racism? when did political ideology become inseperable from race? Admittedly, the issue can become grey when talking about Nazism because its ideology was racist. Now, if you take the witchhunt approach and label everyone who refers to an individual or a sub group, then everyone must be racist for referring to any partical individual with any particular personality trait.

On the other hand, if it is not permitted to refer to someone as a Nazi here, then how does one go about making sure one avoids dealing with these people? Indirectly, by accusing me of racism as I referred to one man as a Nazi, then some of you are burying your heads in the sand. There are extreme elements here in Germany just like in any nation.

Did you have any proof that this man was a Nazi? Or did you decide that based alone on the fact that he was German (Oberbayerisch if I remember correctly) and a prick.

Don't have any stats with me but I'll bet there are more Neo Nazis in the US than here. Do you automatically assume that every man who acts like a prick is a Nazi? If so, then no your post isn't racist just ignorant.

I have no 'proof' except that the Verwalter apologised to us and he told us the owner doesnt want to rent the place to foreigners under any circumstances. He told us the owner has a problem with other races. Now, whilst this does not in itself constitute nazism, it does show the xenophobia that was a central part of the Nazi regime.

Probably, due to being here for many years I have picked up the bad habit that many Germans have of associating xenophobia with nazism. As such, I admit that I should only have referred to the man as xenophobic, however that doesnt change how many Germans who I have told about this will refer to him.

Edit: please note that I say 'many' Germans and certainly by no means infer that all Germans call some other currently living Germans Nazis.

None of the Germans I know associate anything whatsoever with Nazism. In fact, we tend to dissociate ourselves completely from nazism.

The only people I ever hear even making reference to Nazis are non-Germans.

I was not referring to the Nazi regime, but to Nazis.

colloqually, (and this may not be part of your experience, but it is of mine) The term Nazi has taken on the context of referring to someone of far right leanings associated with xenophobia. This may not be the case in Munich itself, and having only been here for a short period I have no empirical evidence to either confirm nor dispute how people in Munich are with the issue, however, in many other parts of Germany I have experienced Germans referring to somone of far right xenophobic leanings as a Nazi.

I don't like the use of the word "race":

See: Race vs. Ethnicity


I sincerely doubt that the neighbor or agent or whoever it was who told you "he doesn't like people of other races" or whatever really knew that, but rather they were trying to find some reason to explain his rejection of non-German candidates. It's just a stupid word. I wouldn't like to rent my apartment (if I had one) to people who I thought a) wouldn't pay the rent on time or at all b) would trash the apartment or c) would leave after a few months. Of course, I wouldn't make the assumption that non-Germans would do all of the above, but we all grow up with different prejudices, backgrounds, etc. There's a great experiment online that tests how you "subconsciously" react to people of different ethnic backgrounds. I'll try to find the link - you might be suprised how prejudiced you actually are. I certainly was.

If you find that link that would be great.

I agree that 'race' is such a difficult word, but then so is ethnicity. When security guards are asked to keep an eye out for people of 'ethnic' background, we generally all know who they are referring to. I for one will not try and make a black and white differentiation of the two terms. In terms of language the two terms share a large grey area of common interpretation.

Edit: I am not saying that you are trying to make a black and white differentiation.