My family is planning to relocate from Florida

Hi, my family is planning on relocating to Germany at the beginning of next year. My husband is an IT professional and earns just under $100,00 a year in Florida. He has 20+ years of experience in .net and web development. I am 2 classes shy of my Masters of Liberal Arts and am a certified TEFL teacher. I am also an author but I just finished one novel and will spend the first 6-7 months writing my next one, so I don't expect any income from that until after we have been there a while. We have four kids, but only two will be coming with us (girl 16 and boy 14) I am trying to keep up with all of the things that are so different between here and there (getting the residency and work visa, the health insurance requirement, the taxes and pension fund) but my head is swimming. I have been studying German and should have a fairly decent grasp of the language by the time we get there - I am sure it will get better once I am able to communicate with other Germans - not a lot of German speaking people in West Palm Beach. So, the rent difference I am aware of (I am trying to avoid using an agency) and I also know to ask if the apartment/house comes with appliances. Any other advice from anyone on how not to be completely lost when we get there? What is a good amount of savings to have before coming?

Any input is appreciated!

which city do you plan on moving to?

Anywhere in or near Berlin or Frankfurt I believe. We are pretty flexible though. It really depends on where my husband will be able to find work.

IMHO you should get a job lined up first as that will determine where you might move to. I know of a number of currently unemployed & experienced IT people in Germany... You don't state whether your husband is German or US - if latter that will make your job search more of a challenge.

Sorry - he is a US citizen. I have looked into jobs but what I have found is that companies are interested in you only AFTER you have arrived. We have thought about renting a short-term unit so that we can get a better understanding of the job market as well as visit the places we are looking at renting long-term.

In which case the priority is to find him a job & IMHO that will not be easy in the current climate - given that a potential employer will have to prove that no EU citizen can do the job...


Just seen the above - at that age putting them into German schools will be painful for all concerned (I did a year at a German school in Munich when I was 15...).

there are many threads on employment & Berlin that you might want to have a read through. The bottom line is that it is very, very difficult to find work and get a residence permit in Berlin (beyond 3 month tourist visa).
The city has a 14-17% unemployment rate (depending on which area you are in) and there is stiff competition. I would advise hands down to get the job before you come here.

The Frankfurt job market may be a bit easier to crack simply because there are a lot more companies in that area. Berlin has a lot to offer as a city but has yet to attract and retain a lot of multinational companies.

ps: if you have some extra cash it might be worthwhile to have a chat/consult with one of the Berlin relocation companies. Just google that and you will come up with some options.

Thanks for all of the good info. It has been very helpful!

Depends on her husband´s nationality ...

Curiously I was thinking the same & am thus confused...

His family is German, he is of German ancestry but was born in America. Thankfully I just discovered that the IT company he works for here in Florida also has a Frankfurt office, so he may be able to transfer to that office. If I understand what I am reading, it is much easier to get a residency and work visa with a letter of employment from a company operating in Germany.

Reading this whole thread (& your other one) I have grave misgivings - it sounds as if for some reason you are planning to move to Germany but have no income (job) set up and I fear have little idea of what you are letting yourselves in for. There have been similar threads in the past...

As its been established that you are both US citizens you will find it as difficult to gain employment here as it would be for a EU citizen to do similar in US. On top of that you are bringing children of school age who (I presume) do not speak reasonably fluent German.

As they say in Bridge circles: GLP (= Good Luck Partner).

If the company he works for arranges to transfer him to Germany he should have no problem with a residency/work permit. As far as him coming from a German family, the Germans don't give one iota about that. About the best thing you can do is try for a US Govt. job. But from reading your posts, if you're coming over here cold, with not a very good grasp of the language, and no contract for a job, you're in for a world of hurt. Don't mean to be a Party-Pooper, but that's just the way it is.

As far as your novel goes -- talking from experience -- if you don't already have a publiser, you're going to be hard put to find one. Most US Publishers don't like talking to new novelists who do not live in country. Meaning living in the USA. Most still think in terms of long distance calls costing about $5.00 a minute and everything going by Air Mail. But then again, you could get lucky and find a small publisher in tune with the times...

Sorry if I popped your bubble, but I just wanted to give you a heads-up on that reality check. Have a nice day.

The reference to my husband's ancestry was just to answer someone's question from further up in the post. If he were to decide to seek citizenship, however, he wouldn't have to wait the 8 years (apparently if you can trace your lineage back to Germany then you can seek citizenship without the residency requirement) And I have an agent (Donald Maas Agency in NYC) and a publisher already. I know it isn't going to be easy, that is why I am asking for input from people who are already over there. We have savings enough to live comfortably for a year or so without having to work, I would just rather not run through that. And I did some looking into the international schools, there are quite a few that teach in English and offer German courses for foreign children who are not fluent, so I think that would be alright. I am not one to uproot my family, hop on a plane, and hope to settle down and live happily ever after in a foreign country with no contacts, we have been planning on moving for quite some time, but I was diagnosed with a brain tumor a year ago and couldn't travel until now. I was just looking for some pointers on getting started with the paperwork and such.

My ancestors were German nationals. Can I get a German passport?

Go for it then! Win, Lose or Draw, it will be the best adventure you ever went on. And tell your husband to try and get a job with his present company just to be on the safe side. For the last 5 or 6 years the Germans have been sending their unemployed, and unemployable, construction workers to IT school. So he'll have to compete with them on the open market. And they have an advantge since they can speak, and write, the language. Just one question -- why does he want German citizenship? Does he know what he's getting into?

He probably won't seek German citizenship. It was just something that I found interesting when I was doing research for the move. The only reason I mentioned my husband being of German ancestry was as background info (he spent quite a lot of time in Germany as a young adult). It was the reason we looked into moving to Germany in the first place, he really loved the time he spent there.

"People born to a parent who was a German citizen at the time of birth are usually German citizens on that basis. It does not matter whether they were born in Germany or not. Nor does it matter if the parent is a naturalised German." (not my quote just one I read) His parents were both German citizens. Anyway, it doesn't really matter, he will in all probability choose to retain his US citizenship.

Living here and spending time here are two different things. If you have a safety net, or a god backup plan, to say nothing about plenty of cash, this place is great; but if you're coming over here with stars in your eyes and no in depth plan then good luck. And no, your normal apartments or rental houses do not come with appliances, or kitchens.

I would have a job lined up for at least one of you before coming here. The economy in Berlin isn't very dynamic and it can take ages to find a job, even for people with very good resumes. It might be a bit better in Frankfurt but unemployment is still quite high in western Germany as well. Eurolondon are an agency I have used before and they are good for jobs in the Frankfurt area, they also hire people who don't live in Germany yet. I also know of a company called zappmedia in Berlin that was looking for people. Berlin has high unemployment rates and that probably isn't going to change much over the next few years.

Your husband attaining German citizenship (although it seems unlikely to be possible based on other folks' comments in this thread) seems to be pretty much your only route to migrating to Germany. Otherwise, unless his current firm transfers him to Germany AND does all the paperwork to get him a work permit (including proving, at least on paper that there is nobody in Germany who can do the job - lawyers can always fudge this, but expect that you or your husband's firm will have to pay lots of money to get them to do this), then neither of you can work in Germany. Even if he gets his work permit this way, you probably won't be able to work legally.

And what about your kids? What are you plans for finishing their education? Do you expect them to simply slot into the German education system, get their Abitur (what's that I hear you say!), and go to University. And of course they will simply be able to drop their friends and immediately pick up friends in an environment where most kids do not speak their language fluently.

As I said in another similar post recently, please take a reality check - nice dream, but is it attainable and in the case of your prticular family, is it sensible for all of your family?

Colinmanning - very well said.

Hmmm, throughout this forum I have read posts about people who have moved to Germany and are quite happy with it, and they did so with less money and less education/experience than my family. I have a TEFL certificate, and since we are coming to Germany from the US we don't have to have a work visa or even a visitor visa to get in, however, as an IT consultant working for a consulting firm (my husband) with 20+ years of experience and a firm that has an office in Frankfurt, I think it would be easier to get work than if we were flying blind. After researching much of this (mostly because of the feedback from this forum) I discovered that consulting firms have far more leeway with regard to hiring IT consultants - for instance, if company A says they need someone for a 6 month project that can develop online banking software with upper manager level experience and either a Master's Degree or equivalent work experience using C++, java, HTML, and .Net, they simply seek out individuals who first - fit all of those, second - can provide several sound references to prove they have that experience, and third - are available immediately and are flexible in employment (short term contracts as opposed to being hired as a permanent employee. The decision on who to hire from a consulting company falls entirely to the company who has contacted the consulting firm for the position.




My husband is considered a top tier IT professional in the US, where there is no shortage of skilled laborers. If neither of us were considered skilled laboreres I agree with you all that a move would be ill advised, but in this instance, we both fit the requirements set by the German government to qualify as skilled laboreres (again, I will have my Master's Degree in two months, plus I have two years of law school, and have two TEFL certifications, and my husband more than meets the requirements as well). In additional to this, we have enough of a nest egg to live on for a year. As far as the kids, I am looking into our options for schooling, but there are international schools that teach in English and also teach German for students who don't speak, read, and write German fluently. They are home schooled now, so they would not be up and leaving classmates, nor would they be pulled out of school for the move. The input I have gotten from professionals here in regard to moving them is two-fold - It will be a difficult adjustment, but once they get through the initial culture change, it will open them up to things they would not otherwise have access to here in America as well as significantly broaden their educational possibilities and future prospects. Also, children move with their families from one state to another in the US, and they seem to adjust alright, as do military children. A move to Germany is not the same as if I were to move to New York or California, but the ramifications are essentially the same - new surroundings, new friends, new social scene, so yes, I do believe they will be able to make new friends once we arrive.

I have not entered into this without thought and planning, and I only asked for some advice about filling out the proper paperwork once we got there. I know where to go, the time it will take (both in just waiting to be seen and waiting once the applications have been made), but I thought that people who had gone through it might have some helpful tips on getting through it faster or less painfully. I didn't expect to be told that moving to Germany was a pipe dream that should be abandoned. I have managed to beat cancer, a brain tumor, raise four children plus a step-daughter, obtain three college degrees, write a novel, work as an Intel Specialist for the Navy, and remain sane through it all. I am not a flighty person who enters into things without researching them and thinking about the pros and cons (yes, I have a list). I have looked at the difference in the exchange rate for US dollars versus the Euro, made sure that our savings was sufficient after it was converted to Euros. I have looked at the process and difficulty of obtaining a resident and work visa, I am working with a placement company for TEFL teachers, and in all honesty, the cost of living in Germany will be less expensive for us than living in West Palm Beach ($2500 rent for a 3 bedroom, $600 electric, $100 water, $200 cable, $100 internet, $800 car payments, $1600 health insurance, $1200 groceries, $700 doctors and medication, $500 phones, and those are just the basics here). We have looked at the difficulties associated with finding work in our chosen fields, we have weighed the negatives versus positives associated with moving the children to Europe, and in additional to all of that, the US is going to be in trouble and not a great place to be for at least the next three years with the mortgage problems and the financial institutions going under.

So, while I appreciate the helpful advice I have received, the people who have told me to give up on coming to Germany - even though they themselves made the decision to make the move - have helped in that I have done additional research, but their negativity doesn't reflect well on the forum overall. While a "Well, here are the things you should think about," is one thing, "Time for a reality check, you have no chance of getting work here," and calling into question one's ability to take care of their family is not conducive at all. I apologize for the length of this post, it is just frustrating to have people tell me I am not being realistic. As such, I am signing off. I got some good information from the forum, but I don't think that being cut into by strangers who know nothing about my situation is productive. Best of luck and thanks again for the helpful advice, those who gave it.

Yes this is true, you can get in on the visa waiver basis. This however entitles you to stay up to 90 days as a tourist, and not to work, and does not entitle you to residence status. You cannot work in the EU if you are a US citizen without a work permit. This is exactly the same rune that applies to EU citizens who visit the US.

I have not questioned how good your husband is as an IT professional. However even if he is very experienced, he will need to find a company who need his skills, and cannot get them here in the EU. Despite what many people in the USA believe, there are a vast number of highly skilled and experienced IT professionals in the EU.

For most IT jobs in Germany, your husband will need to speak German - for some a basic grasp may do, for many fluency is required. An expection is if the german company only services the non-German speaking countries, or has a division that does so. There are very, very few such companies.

As I mentioned earlier, if your husband finds a company willing to sponsor a work permit, this will involve using lawyers either by the company or yourselves to get the work permit through. It does not matter how good or experienced the person is, there needs to be proof that the company cannot find a suitably competent person in the EU (note the EU, not only Germany - that means 25 or so countries).

Please start being realistic. Nobody is saying that it is impossible for you to move here, just that it will be extremly difficult for you to do so, and some of us are questioning the effect the move will have on your teenage children.


One other point, if you are going to come to the forum for advice, please do not provide misquotes, or reference quotes that do not exist. I cannot find the above quote that you reference, anywhere in this thread. People are trying to help you by providing information. I suggest that you appreciate that, and respect the contributors, who after all are responding based on their knowledge and experience and in good faith to your query.

Finally, the people providing you with advice here are either EU citizens, who can live and work in Europe without a work permit, or are married to an EU citizen (same applies), or have naturalized here (i.e. come over a long time ago to study, and have become German citizens after living here long enough - and so what you are planning to do is completly different, and more complex.

Then I am wondering why you posted this question on this forum in the first place. As in a number of previous threads you are being given honest opinions by people taking the trouble to reply to you based on the information you supplied & their experiences. One sees many such threads when OP doesn't receive the answer they want and then respond with a lecture...

As I stated early on I work for a major IT company and we have been shedding a lot of staff recently who are all out there looking for jobs - and these are not idiots or inexperienced. Anyone without EU citizenship is likely to be behind them in the queue - this would be little different if the tables were turned.

Jo jo,

Please don't take any of this personally. The people questioning your decision to move to Germany are not being excessively negative or intentionally discouraging. They are merely wondering if, based on the information you provided, moving to Germany is your best coarse of action.

I moved to Germany but:
- I was relatively young
- I had a guaranteed job before I moved
- I did not have a family to think of

And it was still not that easy. Germany currently has a solid economy, nevertheless, jobs are scarce. I am an IT professional and I don't feel like I'm in the midst of some high-tech boom. And if times become tough you will be at a disadvantage compared to native Germans. Especially if your command of the German language is not rock solid.

Is your husband 100% in support of this decision? Have you talked to your kids about what they think? I don't have to tell you that, at 14 and 16, these are very sensitive times for them.

Might I ask, what motivates you to move to Germany? If it is the impending financial crisis, may I suggest that moving to Germany is not a likely solution? If fecal matter hits the proverbial fan, times will be tough everywhere, including here. For example, the company I work for has many American customers. If these customers go away there will be layoffs. In such a scenario I will strongly consider returning to Canada.

I don't intend to turn this into some kind of an argument. This is just my opinion. One piece of advice I'd give you, if you decide to move, at least either you or your husband should have a job waiting.

And, regardless of what you decide, I wish the best of luck to you and your family!

Hi jojo, I didn't mean to sound negative in my post. I just meant to say that you and/or your husband should maybe arrange something in advance instead of just coming over with nothing so that at least one of you has a job to come to when you arrive, because unemployment is high here and it can take ages to get a meaningful job, and I am also a professional person with a university education. Definitely give Eurolondon a call, they're good for IT jobs, especially around Frankfurt. Also the job sites www.icjobs.de and careerjet.de are good because you can search in English. Also if you have a TEFL there will be lots of places in Frankfurt or Berlin where you could try. Your bills in Berlin would definitely be much cheaper than in Miami! If you came to Leipzig they would be really, really cheap and there is an international school here as well. I'm sure you will find seomthing in Germany! Good luck.

To summarise - you can't come to Germany to live permanently and work without a work permit. You can come for up to 90 days on a tourist visa, but, in theory you cannot seek or apply for work during that time. You can only, in most cases obtain a visa from outside the country. Ergo, find a job first and apply for a visa around it, or come here for a vacation, find prospective employment then return (or at least leave the EU) to obtain the necessary paperwork to return permanently.
By the way - flashing a "Masters Degree", prospective or otherwise has little bearing on your ability to get a permit to work here. A friend of mine who is American and a plumber found getting a permit much easier than another, who has a PhD and 15 years experience in IT. It came down to being actually needed for the post he applied for..

Maybe then for you a better choice would be to hire a relocation expert. These companies can give you advice, help you with paperwork, and make sure everything is totally legal. This way you would not feel that a group of strangers are trying to be negative and destroy your dream. But getting the facts from a professional.

I honestly think it is group concern for your family (in total you, husband and kids) that is driving the answers. No one wants to see you come and lose your years savings or turn around and have to leave after 90 days if you could instead actually arrive here to a waiting job. If everyone is speaking up it is because they know what could happen because of the unemployment rates, visa requirements , etc....

FYI (BIG SIGH) Americans are not highly regarded here...We are the low men on the totem poles

While a relocation "expert" (a term which I question) will help you move into the country, they are unlikely to find you a job, or a permit without one...

Americans do not need work permits in Germany, I learn everyday something new in TT.

PS. I find very ironic that someone who does not live in Germany thinks she knows better than people who actually moved to Germany.

"Ironic"? I find it amusing - nay laughable.

Yes, but who is she likely to take advice from TT or some professional who does this for a living? The relocation company will help her add up expenses before she gets here. That will be done in a more individual way to suit the needs of her family. For example 2 students in International School is over 20,000 euro a year tuition. A single guy doesn't need that info. It couldn't hurt...

My husband works in the semiconductor industry and not in IT, but he found his salary was much lower in Germany than in the US. (We arranged our own internal company transfer to Germany.) Just one more thing for you to look out for when you're doing your planning, Jo Jo.

With all the additional taxes and health insurance deductions from his paycheck, we definitely made major financial sacrifices for the pleasure of living in Germany. I'm guessing our total combined income over six years of living voluntarily in Munich was probably about 35% less than what it would have been if we had stayed in the US. Add in the higher cost of living in Munich, and you get the picture. Not that we regret it (quite the opposite), but it's good to be prepared.

Not for us, 250 Euros per year (100 Euros Klassekasse, 150 Euros Verein) for my daughter in a superb international school - state run, bi-lingual lessons (English, German), and multi-cultural. I assume you are talking about some ridiculous private school (regular readers will know that I consider all private schools ridiculous).

Some of the statements on this blog have been wrong. Colin Manning you're wrong when you say jo jos husband couldn't work legally unless his company organized him a job in Frankfurt. This isn't necesarily true. This link provides a clarification.

http://germany.usembassy.gov/germany/servi...in_germany.html

I know there are other options Collinmanning which is why I suggested a relocation specialist. Are the public International schools located everywhere? Can her children get in right away in January. Will they be open to a home schooled back ground? The private International school may may the only option open and she would need to be prepared for that kind of cost. As in every catagorie (not just education) she will have many questions like these that a professional will be better able to deal with in the area she is wanting to relocate.

No idea where you got this quote, as I never said anything of the kind.

I said that he cannot get work in Germany without a work permit - like all US citizens. I said that any company that offers him a job in Germany, needs to prove that they cannot get someone from the EU to do the job. I said, that in order to do this, either he or the company offering the job needs to use lawyers to get the paperwork done, and this can be expensive. I said that his best bet is to either get German citizenship (in which case everything works out), or get his current company to transfer him and do the paperwork.

So please avoid misquotes, and putting words in peoples' mouths. The fact of the matter is that this lady and her family will not be able to live and work in Germany withour resident and work permits, and there is no way for them to get such permits unless they get some business here in Germany to sponsor the work permit. That is a fact, no matter what they want to hear, that is the way. Nobody says they can't get the permits, only that there is are processes they must follow, and these processes have been discussed ad nauseam on this thread already.

There are a number in Berlin. However, no of course people cannot just come and walk in. There are policies. Yes kids do sometimes come in mid-term, when their families relocate to Berlin (often diplomats or visiting academics).

I would expect that very schools would be open to a home schooled background, especially when the kids are already teenagers.

Also what about the 16 and 14 year old kids. When they move to school here (and we know that home education is illegal, so they must go to school), what will they do? Will they slip into an Abitur class or what? How will they communicate with other kids, teachers and things on the curriculum. Even in an international school, the kids need to speak German. I am not aware of English only schools - maybe they exist, but if so, they cannot help kids get German school qualifications. So the kids would end up with what? American school qualifications? Then what? They need to do further study, or get a job? How will that work for them with little German language skills?

The key for this family is to get a work permit. Then they can get residence permits, and then everything falls into place. They can go to relocation consultants if they wish, but these companies cannot get them work permits. They may be able to provide access to the lawyers, but there is no getting away from the face that they will need to find a company to offer the husband a job and sponsor the work permit. How many times do I and others have to say this. It is very simple - it is the exact same for EU citizens who want to relocate to the USA.

Can somebody please tell me why the OP or others believe that there is something special about this family, that means they will be treaded in a way different to all other US citizens with regard to working and living in Germany?

Whether an apartment has a fitted kitchen depends on the area of Germany. For example, in Münich or Köln they don't - you have to buy a new one or reach an agreement to buy one from the previous tenants. In Hamburg, however, the apartments do come with kitchens. No idea about Frankfurt or Köln.

I second what the others have said. Your husband should try to secure a job before you all move. This may mean securing interviews and coming by himself ahead of the rest of you, but it will save you from a huge amount of hassle and worry. For non-German speaking IT work, the best bets are Munich or perhaps Frankfurt.

They are not going to be treated different. But from her post she felt like everyone was just giving her crap. She felt like she had done all this great research and knew what she was talking about and was on her way to coming. That is great that she did her research. It was too bad she didn't see that everyone's comments were useful. Once again speaking only for me...I only suggested a professional because she might actually believe a professional when they say the SAME thing. And because a professional will offer even more in depth answers to more specific questions geared to her family's situation.

Absolutely, she should seek professional advice/services (not only with regard to the relocation practicalities, but I think she needs to talk to a professional about the effect this would have on the kids) for such a huge life decision. However she did come to Toytown for advice, and has got lots, and even if she's a bit frustrated by the comments, I hope it has given her and her family good pointers as to how they might progress.

Jo-Jo

It's been a few days but I hope you get o read this: I've been reading this thread simultaneously astounded and alarmed!

First off, let me say: I'm an American and yes, I'm employed in Germany. My wife, however, is German. So I never had to encounter the situation you find yourself in. Also, I had --as many people in TT are advising you or husband to do -- a firm offer in hand for a job here before we moved from the US.

Secondly -- and this is important: my mother-in-law is a EU lawyer and EU law professor, so I know a bit more about all this stuff that most people, even when it's info that doesn't apply to me directly. And I can tell you, straight off, that as a US citizens NEITHER YOUR NOR YOUR HUSBAND can work in Germany--or in ANY EU country, for that matter. Actually, let me go further: as US citizens you CANNOT WORK in many, many countries! Does that shock you? Having been a professor in the US for years, I'm always amazed (and ashamed) at the level of (downright arrogant, sorry, don't want to sound like a s---t!) ignorance we Americans show at times.

Why would you think you can work here when you're not German --or European? No one from Europe cam work in the US unless, as colinmanning has said repeatedly of Germany, a company sponsors them for a resident visa and thus a work permit. And for said visa/permit said company MUST PROVE that said position cannot properly be filled by a national. Same applies for Germany or any other EU country. How tough is that to understand?

Someone sent you a link to the US embassy under the mistaken assumption that it would thus disprove colinmanning's assertion and show you that you could indeed work here legally. No such case. Sorry. What the link actually says is that you can come here without a visa, sure, for up to 90 days--after that, you'll be ILLEGAL. As illegal as all our illegals in the US. The only way you could work in that situation is if WITHIN THOSE 90 DAYS you somehow (miraculously, it seems to be) were able to come up with a residence visa... See? It's a vicious circle. The residence would give you a work permit, but for that--alas--you need the visa!!

Sorry to be so blunt, but your naivety is unbelievable.

Just why you'd want to uproot your family to move to a country where you've no connections is unclear. Germany is a nice place to live and right now, surely more solid and stable than the US (or the UK) but this does not mean at all that it is open for everyone.

I found it totally believable, and pretty much par for the course.
Nice post, by the way...