Why is Gore-Tex so expensive?

I know... You get what you pay for and all that, But why are Gore-Tex branded products so darned expensive?

I was looking at some Motorcycle boots at the weekend and the Gore-Tex ones were twice the price of the other brands, even the sales guy couldnt explain why they were so dear!

Can anyone recomend any equally good brands of outdoor clothing?

SP

I have some GoreTex, and believe me, its worth it! One of my jackets is 9 years old- its my warmest driest jacket I have.

Gore-Tex is the most water repellant clothing material there is. After trying to save some money and buy other things, I finally bought Gore-Tex, and I will never go back. No need for an umbrella when you have a Gore-Tex jacket, and nothing beats it for skiing. A dry skier is a happy one.

There are plenty of alternatives - like Helly Hansen - that may be cheaper and just as good but GoreTex has built up a reputation for excellence (which is justified) and you pay for it. I have loads of GoreTex clothes for mountain sports and have never been disappointed, but I also have jackets from HH and they are very good too.

You pay extra for the name – both the Gore-Tex name and the manufacturer's name. So a North Face Gore-Tex jacket will be very expensive because that's two brand names you're paying for. There's no doubt, however, that it is a very effective material compared to the cheaper alternatives.

I don't know anything about motorcycle stuff, but hiking gear is actually pretty pricey in Germany – you can often get better deals in the UK. If you do go the UK route, consider Paramo gear. They use Nikwax waterproofing, which considered to be drier and more breathable than Gore-Tex – their clothing is used by most of the Mountain Rescue teams now. I bought a Paramo jacket last year and am very pleased with it. The downside is that it is heavier than Gore-Tex jackets.

Have many friends who are mountain bike professionals who swear by Gore-Tex. I am thinking of buying one as the conditions are crappy. Not cheap though, but its a good as a long term investment. I might go for a Pro-Shell. Good Luck.

Gore make their own bike wear and this tends to be a little cheaper than the other-brands-with-GoreTex products that STB mentions. Watch out for the end of summer sales in the likes of Schuster as there are often reductions - all mountain sports clothing is overpriced in Munich.

Thats a really good point HellesAngel - during the summer there were some good deals but I was too lazy and missed out.

My BMW motorbike gear is GoreTex and was excellent (haven't been on a bike for some time though). Bought mine secondhand from Bikeway - might be worth looking there?
Have a GoreTex ski jacket from Peak Performance, bought in a Sports Scheck sale, warm and breatheable - important if you're a sweaty betty like I am.

Tend to buy my hiking stuff in sales or from outlets, have been searching for good winter hiking pants. Anyone ever used the Vaude ones? Or should I just go buy any brand of GoreTex? They need to survive winter walking and lower-level hiking rather than mountaineering, thanks.

Mountainwear is too Schicki-Micki here; it pushes up the prices. Jack Wolfskin? Do me a favour. Best bet is to decide what gear you want at Schuster or Karstadt Sport and then buy it online.

@Katrina: I wouldn't buy Gore-Tex trousers, as any waterproof material will be significantly less breathable than normal polyester. Best buy some medium-thick polyester trousers, and then a pair of Gore-Tex waterproof trousers to put on top when it's wet or windy. Even the Paramo gear will get you sweaty if you're slogging uphill.

As STB says GoreTex sell the basic breatheable fabric then the other companies cut it and stitch it into a jacket shape. Gore do have some quality control but not all jackets with GoreTex in are constructed equally.

Try putting the hood up and see if it turns with your head, can it be adjusted to sit just right, do the seals work well (waist, neck, arms are critical, a separate snow seal is very useful if you powder ski), are they only velcro or also with draw cord (velcro freezes and stops working when it's very cold), can they be operated with one hand, in gloves, can you draw the jacket in tight so it's warmer, does it have vents you can open if it's too warm, pockets of varying sizes (food, map, keys, money, other stuff) where you need them, are any external pockets waterproof, are the fabric joins sealed with GoreTex tape, does it fit, can you move your arms freely etc.?

My advice would always be spend that bit extra and get a good brand like North Face - no point spending a lot of money and being disappointed when for a little extra you can just enjoy your purchase.

OK I might go for something like these NF HyVent then. Was really looking for an all-in-one solution, but guess could wear thermal leggings underneath unless really bitter?

EDIT: My main hiking jacket is NF HyVent and I'm pretty happy with it. If it can survive Dumfries drizzle and Milford Sound rain... just got the fleece liner in the summer sale too.

It depends how cold it will be and what activity you'll be doing. Cross-country skiing, for example, will make you pretty hot, but you'd want waterproof trousers for when you end up on yer arse. If you're just walking around, I'd go for the combo I suggested above, with separate layers. Obviously an all-in-one solution would be simpler, but layers are more flexible.

The HyVent overtrousers that you link to won't help keep you warm in themselves, but they will keep the wind out and stop your legs getting wet, which is obviously very important, and at €100 they should be pretty breathable. They aren't Gore-Tex though; HyVent is North Face's own material.

I have that exact pair of HyVent pants. They have served me well for hiking in rain, etc. Prices are much better in California as we have North Face outlets there.

I've had good luck buying used Gore-tex from eBay (USA) for my son. He is growing too fast to buy it new!

GoreTex lined motorcycle boots are excellent for the rain. If you get a properly made pair. I can recommend Daytona. Sounds like your salesman wasn't very well trained. Goretex works better than any of the other breathable/waterproof fabrics that I've used. Goretex gear, especially boots, is not such a good idea in the heat of the summer. They just cannot handle the moisture buildup due to perspiration.

For bike jackets I can recommend Rukka. Very good aftersales service/guarantee. I've had mine about 8 years and they are just starting to show their age now. good protective gear as well, although I've never had to test it.

Great mlovett! I get discount at Scheck so might have to go and try some on...

EDIT: isn't for cross-country skiing, will be for keeping up my hiking over the winter and also walking with my guy and his border collies out in the country.

I think the days of Gore Tex may be numbered. Hi-tec have been given a licence to produce shoes with a coating using a technology developed for the army that is much cheaper and much more breathable than Gore Tex.

I got my cycling rain gear in Canada from the Mountain Equipment Co-op. Perfect for the winter when it is colder but I still sweat too much in it in the warmer months. The only thing I've come across that is light enough to be packed, breathable enough when cycling in warmer months and still water proof is Gore Tex Paclite gear. I really really want me some but it is just way out of my budget.

Exactly what mlovett said. Gore-Tex is one of those newer synthetic materials (there are others, incidentally) that separate moisture (read: sweat) from your skin. Thus the saying: "Cotton is rotten." In hot or cold weather, when the skin is wet the body requires additional energy to regulate its internal temperature. The question is whether you regard the extra comfort (and energy, depending on how long you ride and how much you, er, sweat) as worth the cost. Cheers.

My Gore bike wear windstopper vest is the most useful piece of cycling kit that I have ever bought, although less for the breathability than the windstopping layer.
Trousers or leggings with the Gore Windstopper panels are also pretty good for cross-country ski-ing if you're planning to go fast.

@James Runner. As far as I understand it, Goretex doesn't actually wick sweat away from the skin. It's a membrane of expanded PTFE where the space between the fibrils is large enough to allow water vapour but not droplets of water through.

Bron, exactly right. However, i think for Gore Tex to work at its best you need to avoid any cotton layers that trap and soak up moisture and have a wicking material next to the skin. Under Armour have some of the best products for wicking moisture.

The assumption there being it performs is well as they say over a longer time and is durable;-)

Prices are much cheaper than here as well. Millets stocks these very trousers for £55 which is about €70 compared to about €100 here.

it is reputed to be MORE durable, especially for footwear. Gore Tex doesn't work particularly well on running shoes or softer trail shoes, for example, since the membrane tends to fail around the flex area at the base of the toes and then starts leaking. This new technology is reputed not to have this problem.

North Face gear is horrifically overpriced in Germany. I was doing some comparisons this summer after a trip to North America. The price of one jacket goes as follows (standard prices, not reduced or outlet):

Germany: €90 ($128)
Canada: CA$90 ($90)
USA: $69

So I'd be minded to avoid North Face here simply because you are being outrageously ripped off. Here in Germany, the Germanic and Scandinavian brands will probably offer you better value for money.

Totally - NF gear in Europe is totally overpriced, and their raincoats are crap quality. Avoid. Mountain Equipment gear is the way to go. Expensive, but absolutely excellent.

I had a very simple Mountain Equipment jacket that I bought in the UK for £50 (sale) and it lasted 8 years of use every wet cold day cycling to work. Very good value stuff.

Not sure what you mean about NF stuff being crap - I have a 3 layer GoreTex NF jacket I use for skiing and even though it's 10 years old it's just fabulous - totally wind proof, good seals that don't let drafts or snow in, still waterproof. The Mrs. wants me to move it on as the colour on the shoulders has faded in the sun but I like it so much I'm not enthusiastic about a new one. Agreed about it being expensive in Munich, not sure about the whole of Germany in general though.

STB, are the Canadian and US prices including sales taxes?

I bought an expensive NF jacket in the UK a few years ago - the tapes on the seams all came off within 2 years, it's not waterproof any more. Not really what you'd expect from a 150 quid jacket. Am sure some of their stuff is just fine - I guess I was unlucky.

If that's a Gore.Tex NF Jacket it might be worth you reading this.

Gore-Tex Customer Care

@OG: No, but in Chicago it's only 8% and usually zero if you buy online.

is that because online sales companies in the US officially base themselves in states without sales tax? There isn't a federal sales tax in the US like in Canada, is there?

Btw, at current exchange rates and using Ontario's sales tax your example for Canada actually works out more like US $110, so only 14% cheaper than the German price (6% of which is the different sales taxes).

Forget wot i wrote there, i got the exchnage rate the wrong way round.

I'm not really sure on the ins and outs of sales taxes in America, but I've ordered stuff on Amazon.com for delivery within the US on several occasions and never been charged any tax. I think it may be because you're ordering goods from a different state, a bit like tax-free shopping in Europe. I was in Illinois, which appears to have a rather complicated system, with the rate varying between 6.25 and 10.25% depending on where in the state you are. I was paying 8.25%. There don't seem to be any Federal taxes, only local ones.

I was thinking of getting myself a pair of North Face Hedgehog XCR shoes. Does anyone have any experience with them?

Yes, buy them in America!

There is no federal sales tax in the US.

It is up to each individual state to decide how they generate sufficient revenue for themselves. New Hampshire, for example, doesn't have sales tax. Full stop. Massachusetts doesn't have sales tax on clothing for the the first 250 USD.

If you order on-line, since the states were bickering as to which state should get the sales tax (i.e. sender or receiver) - it was decided that neither state held the right to do so.

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/02/13/a...les-tax-debate/

ok apart from advising on buying them in the US, any experience on quality, durability and suitability for off-road running?

When I am planning to buy on line I always make it a point of principle to try the stuff on in Schuster first.

I didn't realise there was a Sport Schuster Filiale in Berlin.

There isn't one. I've long struggled to work out when Kommentarlos is being sarcastic and when not.

Glad you posted that as some still suspect that you are in fact an alias for me.
As I do not ever shop in Schuster since their building kindly fell on my pal's head and nearly killed him, that should clear up that one.
Thanks!

Your welcome!*

In light of 'your' friends misfortune, I always check for flying masonry on the way in and then take full advantage of their sales staff's time and attention safe in the knowledge that I have no intention of making a purchase. If I need to purchase anything in Munich then I choose to spend my cash elsewhere.

_{* Hopes that people are not thinking that I am talking to myself (again)}

*sniggers to selves self*

Ah, it was sarcasm. I think it's the happy smilie that causes the confusion.

Yes, I do feel a small pang of guilt walking out of there intending to buy the product online. However, I don't then waste the staff's time, and in fact would struggle to even if I wanted to. The one time I did eventually find someone to help me (after a 20-minute wait), I did buy the item (a rucksack) there, for a 30% premium compared to online.

I don't mind paying extra for personal service, but I do mind paying extra for no service.

Edit: Nope, still not sure if it was sarcasm or not.

It's great isn't it?

I have tried their (NF) cross training shoes twice now (last pair, GoreTex, I got for "free" in Tahoe), and they just don't work for me. Neither do Nike's. I must wear Adidas. I have weird feet, I guess. So they never really got enough use for me to say... But I do LOVE North Face clothing. My (G-Tex) ski outfit keeps me absolutely dry, and I fall because, well, I am nuts and go for terrain that is over my ability... LOL. I also have a G-Tex NF jacket for rain that I have had for several years and it still looks and performs as if new. Water has never leaked through, and I gave up using umbrellas when I bought that.

Sadly not. There is not a huge range of quality hilly stuff round here. Must be the lack of hills.

But the good news is that post 1989 freedom of movement has become a bit easier

It's a great shame that since the neubau Schuster have taken out the proper mountain stuff from the entrance area and replaced it with pastel coloured Nordic Wanking bollocks but to be fair to Schuster it was more a case of clumsy and negligent builders dropped Schuster's building on the poor unforunate below. Nothing personal, and all that.

bit far to come just to try on a pair of wanking boots though, innit?

Good point... Perhaps I could combine the purchase research of said footwear with something else? I enjoy hiking, climbing, skiing and other outdoor pursuits reliant on an incline I have not yet found in the Mark Brandenburg. I don't suppose you know of anywhere 'hilly' nearbyish?

looking out the window, I can firmly say that I can't see anywhere hilly except the Olympia berg. now if you'd asked me last week...