New life wanted in Germany

Hi Everyone,

I would very much like to move to Germany (south) with my husband and 2 young boys from the Uk for a better quality of life. We are all currently busy learning the language and intend to take an intensive course once we get over there.

We are really taking the plunge as we have no jobs to go to and we realise that we will have to live in rented accommodation and survive on the equity from our Uk property. This all said, we are really so very desperate to get our children out of England that we are prepared to do this. My husband is an analyst for the NHS (waiting lists etc) and so is unlikely to find a similar position in Germany and I am a qualified beautician (I work mobile in the UK).

We are both intending to spend some of our money on a TEFL or CELTA so that we can teach English during the school months but we are fully aware that the money is not up to much doing that so are hoping that it will help until we have enough language and contacts under our belts to find a better positon.

I wanted to know if it was possible for me to continue as a mobile beautician in Germany or would I need to take some sort of local examination to be a able to practise legally?.

If anyone has any jobs out there that you feel we would be able to apply for please let me know, we are willing to try our hand at most things!

Many thanks for all your help, we may sound very, very crazy but we are both self-starters and determined to get our kids a better life!

If he's good at making lists and charts and so on, Germans will welcome him with open arms. TEFL/CELTA, can be difficult. The pay is typically not great if you have no previous teaching experience, and if you have children, you may find the work schedules less than ideal. You should certainly look into options for you husband in the pharaceuticals area. I only know of Sandoz/Hexal in the Munich/Holzkirchen area- they often have positions for English speakers. Can't tell you for sure what the requirements are for working as a beautician here.

Jajak - are you crazy? are you off your trolley?
Do not do this to yourself and your family.
Is this is a wind-up?
At least find a job somewhere and then go there.

Sandoz have jusr expanded greatly here in Holzkirchen. Try them.

I looked into the TEFL a while back but decided against it as the amount you pay to learn it takes ages to recoup in your salary.

Good luck. If you ever come to my neck of the woods I'd be pleased to help out.

Sandoz bought Hexal, as I recall, which (I believe) was a family run company based in Holzkirchen. I used to teach there. Excellent place to work and if you get a nice office, you'll have a fantastic view of the Alps. Though I suppose anywhere in Holzkirchen would provide you with a decent view of the Alps.

Well done you! Go for it gal and don't listen to the naysayers like BB.

We're similarly moving to (North-eastern) Germany without any jobs lined up and living off the equity from our UK house-sale. Hopefully you too managed to unload your house before the prices went into free-fall, but even if not, you'll have probably been surprised at the cost of property and superior quality of life in Germany. Just don't tell too many people back in the UK or we'll be over-run with refugees from Brown's Britain.

Stick with the language-learning though - it's essential (especially here in the former DDR where a second language is more likely Russian, Polish, or Turkish than English).

Alles Gute!

I'd have to agree with BB... I think as a single take the chance, but with kids etc. UNLESS the money you can bring with you is a sizeable sum. Not many landlords will be happy to see you if you haven't a job (and kids in tow!) and if things go belly-up the Germans are fairly uncompromising...

My advice would be to get a job for one of you first.

Where is the "quality of life" for kids with unemployed parents (who may have blown career prospects to smithereens) struggling in an unfamiliar foreign country competing against locals in a jobs markets that has at least 10% unemployment in most places, often more? And away from wider family?

And the equity? Great if it's a lot - although that gravy train left 18 months ago for many before house prices and the pound sank so much - but you have to use it to fund somewhere to live and to pay healthcare costs for all of you, provide a pension, pay your living costs etc.

I have a German b-f but fend for myself. I can do it as my living costs are very low and I have nobody else to worry about (and I can fall back on an "international profession" if needed).

As to teaching EL - which I do some of - I doubt a certificate is worth much. You either have the skills / credentials and evident capacity to do it or not. The decent schools can spot the "I've never been a teacher and only did the qualification for expedient reasons" a mile off. And any attempt to pick and choose - such as according to school schedules - would probably be laughed at.

I'd also leave the language learning until you get here - using the langauge daily is a whole different ball game from learning it in England and barely using it.

Would it be naive to ask why?
You sound more like sub-Saharan refuges.
There seem to be so many nice places in England to live in.

In the Northeast of Gemany you line up for a job

Like Sinderbox, I'm open-mindedly curious about how your quality of life is so bad in England that your children need to grow up in Germany. And what do you anticipate will be so much better about living in Germany?

I can confirm that language teaching does not pull in much money, regardless of whether or not you are certified. I considered getting certification, but my boss said he wouldn't pay me any more if I was certified, and the certification was quite expensive, so I didn't do it. (Getting the job in the first place was a matter of blind luck.) My own experience was that the business was kind of feast or famine, and I wouldn't have wanted to rely on it for primary income.

IMHO, good advice has been given here, esp. by swimmer, cinzia and BB. How old are the kids (think about how the move to a new country will affect them)? Frankly, I think the idea of living off of home equity is foolish (that should be part of your retirement funds or university funds for the kids). I wouldn't advise anyone to move here unless at least one family member has a job offer which will support the entire family. You also don't want to come here without any contacts at all (makes job search a lot tougher). Foreign families without a wage earner or two are bound to have extreme difficulties in the search for an apartment in southern Germany- landlords love solid, decently remunerated employment and aren't found of the unemployed. Some landlords won't rent to foreigners at all. Also, as far as teaching English goes, a university degre in any discipline might be a de facto requirement (hopefully someone who has actually taught English here can comment on that).

Good luck, whatever you decide to do, but in their current form, your plans do sound a bit quixotic, TBH.

I don't see why you couldn't continue as a mobile beautician here, maybe do some research into the most popular treatments here and update you're skills if necessary. May be harder for the hubby. Living of equity should only be considered for the absolute short term. It is easier to learn german here but I wouldn't wait until you get here.

Thanks to everyone for their helpful and well meaning comments. Just to satisfy some questions. (I'll warn you now, it's lengthy!)

We would much prefer the chance to have a job before we move to Germany, however, we have applied for lots of jobs and were told that we would have been granted interviews had we lived in Germany already, so we think that we stand more chance by being ‘on the ground’.

We live in a relatively affluent area of the UK, however, we are very aware that just 2 miles away there are daily reports of violence, and other crimes that are becoming more and more acceptable in the UK’s society as the norm. We have boys (age 5 and 9) and whilst this may not be very significant to people without children, boys are more likely to trouble and this is most definitely something we wish to avoid.

As children we could go to parks and play outside with our friends. Our children can’t do that in the UK. the local school is regularly issuing warning notices to parents concerning ‘men in vans’ and the police are always around, helicopters can be regularly heard overhead and in certain parts of the country if you are ‘White’ and English you are frankly not safe, in fact I had a job last week in one of these areas and can confirm this to be entirely true as I witnessed this with my own eyes.
Not everything that goes on here is reported in the press, on the contrary, much is not! For anyone who has not lived with their children in the UK for the last 2 years they would get a shock if they were to try it now. It has changed dramatically in this time. We have watched our village go downhill. We have no wish to move further South and pay their prices, if we must move then we would rather it be somewhere we want to be.

We have not taken this decision lightly and have been talking about moving to Germany or Austria for the last 3 years but the crime, the social problems, the people and the inability of the government to sort things out, coupled with the fact that if we don’t try our dreams now then we will be forever wondering ‘what if?’ has pushed us to do something about it. Whilst we are aware that Germany has plenty of their own problems, (we do not wear rose tinted specs), crime rates do not come close to the UK’s and it is with this in mind that we made our decision.

We are not in our 20’s, we have just turned 40 and have many years of work experience behind us. I, for example, have worked for over 10 years as a Senior Project Sales Manager for United Utilities before taking redundancy and retraining as a beautician in order to look after my young boys, previous to this I was Customer Service Manager with a large retail outlet and was responsible for over 150 members of Staff. (so we are not in any way naïve as to work ethics).

We do not have substantial wealth but we have done our research and have estimated that we can live (tightly) for approx 2 years without work before we would have to think about moving back. We have no wider family members we are alone. As for spending our children’s university money etc, sometimes you have to do what’s right for them in the long run, no point going to a Uni here if the quality of life is such that they can’t go out. Children are very resilient and our kids are excited about moving and are enjoying trying to learn the language.

I have never been out of work and am determined to find a job. If necessary I will retake my beauty exams and go mobile (we shall not starve).
The house rental, well I know from my research that there are landlords out there who will take us on as long as we can show them that we have enough in the bank to pay for the rental period (ie a year), although we realize we may need to put this in an account that they can see. I believe that there are ways around everything if you look hard enough and never give in and we are not the type of people who do give in.

If the worse comes to the worse we can always come back (God forbid) to the UK and work for an agency as my Husband is headhunted daily by agencies needing his analytical experience. At the very least we will all have a few years experience of another Country, and our kids will have another language under their belts and we firmly believe they will become better people as a result and hopefully have a better life... after all we are adopting the same pioneer spirit that Europeans have always shown.

Phew!! sorry for the lengthy one but thought you all deserved an explanation
Thanks again for all your comments, and if anyone has any jobs out there for us……

Just do it. I sold my house and used the money to fund starting a different life and i dont regret 1 second of it

NHS Analyst? Is he management accounting or more stats? And does he have any kind of qualifications to support this? And which systems were used (I used to be an NHS management accounting analyst at St Mary's Paddington and now work in stats, hence the questions)?
Yes to working on your language skills, jobcentreplus can also help with your job search as can all the usual websites (monster etc.).

What about trying to get some interviews for jobs and then being prepared flying over for them? It might be expensive and require patience and some effort, but it would be a good investment if one of you secured a job that way.

I can completely understand you're motivation to move, and I don't think anyone here is suggesting you shouldn't move. It would just be FAR easier for all concerned if at least one of you had a job lined up beforehand. If you need to be here to get that job, then maybe one of you could do just that. There's a different attitude to jobs and offering work here than in the UK, you might be alarmed at how difficult or slow the whole process is.

FYI my better half started to look for a new job a few weeks ago: He's been in Germany for years and speaks very good German, has good experience and is in a field that is in demand. We're presuming it may take a few months, whereas in the UK he would have probably had an offer within weeks. Not for lack of opportunities in his case, it just seems to take a while and different things matter here.

I'd think very carefully about it because Germany, as much as you want it to be, isnt really like england:

the job market is totally different. In the UK, as long as you've got a bit of swagger and wits, you can blag a job. In germany they WILL NOT look at you unless you have every qualification they think is required for the job.

They also, unlike england, will not even consider hiring you unless you speak fluent german (unless you are applying for a multinational and working in IT or engineering)

Fluent german will take you about up to a year to learn if you are lucky.

Nearly all of the expats who make a GOOD living here are working in IT or engineering, because there is less of a language barrier in these fields. Theres very few british people that would climb up through a normal german company to a decent position and salary.

But yes, the lifestyle is better!

Congratulations on having the guts to want improve your lives and take a gamble doing it.

Clearly you've thought long and hard about the move. The only thing I would question is how are you expecting Germany to look from your kids point of view. They will be put behind massively in the schooling system. It might be a step backwards to go forwards but it's a massive step.

[quote name='Katrina' date='Aug 21 2008, 9:11 am' post='1374160']
NHS Analyst? Is he management accounting or more stats? And does he have any kind of qualifications to support this? And which systems were used

his role is Senior Information Analyst, I'm unsure what systems he uses as we don't discuss this. He has the relevant work related qualifications.

Nice. Go for it.

I'd recommend mainly highlighting positive aspects of moving to Germany though rather than mainly whinging about horrible old Britain to all and sundry - which is probably the second most annoying trait of expats (after moaning about the new country)

Have the OP's family actually been in Germany for any length of time? I havn't seen it stated that they have been here & maybe its a case of viewing the "promised land" from afar and when you get here it will be a bit of a shock (there are cases of people being even surprised that the locals speak German...)

Also as someone mentioned previously, get some job interviews lined up & fly over to conduct them. If that appears to be too expensive then the whole thing is on shaky grounds...

As for learning German "in one year" - certainly some people have a talent for learning languages. I don't. It took me several years to be able to jabber anything coherent but at least that was probably a factor in making contact & winning over the girl who is now my wife. Now I'm reasonably fluent speaking the language but writing it is another matter (luckily I have my wife to assist - you will need to find someone to help you write formal letters).

Good luck, I hate hearing what a nasty place some considerable areas of England have become, but I doubt very much I'll ever move 'home' again.

To your questions: Another possibility is to apply for interviews here, fly over here for them, and make it clear that if they take you for the job you will relocate your family at your expense and without compromising your ability to work. Be aware (very aware!) that in the first six months of any job you have a trial period during which you can be fired without any reason given and with 4 weeks notice. It is advisable to find work before you come, and wait until you are through your trial before moving the family, once settled life is easy here but getting settled is not so simple. German interviewers tend to be conservative, if you husband has experience in medical administration or analysis then he could easily find work in Germany's large and well fed (expensive and bureaucratic) health system but this is probably the most conservative area of them all. It will require some persuasion that you are a safe bet, better than a native.

Things in Germany are not always as clear cut as some TTers make out but their opinions probably reflect personal experience so it can happen - however to counter everything said about the 'you're crazy' advice it is possible to move here with nothing and find everything when here but it will require some considerable resourcefulness (not to mention resources) and a good deal of luck.

we have been visitng Germany/Austria for the past 17 years, but only for hols usually about 4 times a year for a few weeks. We once stayed a month but that's the longest we've every been over for. So the kids have certainly been there and have tried their bit of German in cafes etc but we have never lived there.

My husband's company is about to lay off one third of its employees! I'd get a job first... especially with kids involved. I can tell you, having just moved here from California, that it can be very stressful on children. good luck

OK, then as long as he can work on his German (and show that he is), consider placing his CV on relevant websites and also contacting international placement agencies (e.g. EuroLondon was one I used, there are others) along with English-language on-spec applications to biotech companies - go for the larger ones like Bristol Meyers Squibb etc. He could also consider the large (health) insurers?
Use search (top right of this page) to find tips on CV writing.

Good luck!

admittedly, i found a job then moved here (Munich), but theres absolutely no reason to be put off, especially with the financial situation you describe. not finding work for a while might be actually be a blessing as the the germans will have plenty of queues etc for you to wait in etc

i agree with all the people who have been tentatively positive about it, by the way - it's not to be underestimated, but after two months I think I am through the worst of the beurocracy!

I'll pay for saying that, won't I?

When I first came out to Germany (Hamburg area) job-wise I was part of a UK university research team and "commuted" over a period of several years (few weeks Germany, then back in UK, later several months Germany etc). When I was asked to move out "for one year" (this was 1982) I was happy to do so BUT on moving out it was COMPLETELY different being there (here) 100% instead of for long visits. I was single at that time & the "roof fell on my head". OK - Winter isn't the best time to start. So, be aware that being here for good is different from a 4-week visit.

As a family you will have yourselves for company BUT this is likely to slow your learning of the language compared to what happened to me...

to be honest, re the flying over for interviews, I myself have found that regardless of whether you are willing to do this or not, companies are less likely to actually invite you to an interview if you need to fly over to attend it. I have no idea why this is the case but one HR lady told me that if there are 5 suitable candidates and 4 of them live nearby they would rather invite those 4 and see if there's someone suitable amongst those than also getting the 5th person in who lives abroad and would have to fly in for the interview and I guess often there's someone among the 4 who fits.

My mum moved to London when I was very little, as a single parent & with 3 children. It was fine, if you're willing to work and aren't bothered about what it is you work as to begin with (and it seems that way), you'll find work and everything will be just fine + you're teaching your kids something very valuable - that it takes some guts to follow your dreams and there are risks and it isn't always easy...but if you really want something...

Very true, it's this conservative nature that the OP has to overcome. In some companies it's just impossible but then those are the companies that expats maybe should avoid anyway as their internal culture is entirely based around the 'German model' and if you're different you're not welcome. You could argue that by being so xenophobic (or lazy or unimaginative or whatever) HR dollies like the one you describe are doing us expats a favour.

I think it is brave and I wish them all the best.
if all immigrants/adventurers/people looking for a new/better life were making their life depending on having a job before leaving, the world would look very different.

A whole huge Diversity conversation in the making there @HellesAngel.

Its one thing if you are single & no-one is dependent upon you. Another if you have a set of hungry mouths to feed. Puts a different slant on many things. The "nest egg" will diminish rapidly if there isn't a steady income. You can cut down hard on yourself if you are on your own...

not really HA (unless you're applying for a job in HR), alot of the companies themselves are very international but the HR departments often are not and unfortunately they filter the CVs. I wouldn't write off a company because of that.

BTW - I have found that to overcome this (sometimes), all I had to do was mention in my cover letter that I was going to be in Germany anyway between this and that date and if they had the time and inclination, would love to use that opportunity to meet them personally.

I say go for it.

It is exactly what I have done with Mrs Lazybum and the 3 little lazybums.

I left the UK for the same reasons as you want to and haven't regretted it for a minute.

Good luck to you!!

It might be worth keeping an eye on this website... http://www.businessesforsale.com/Business-...in-Germany.aspx

Thank you. How did you do it then? did you already have a job lined up or did you have contacts that helped you out? How did you find that the children coped? - appreciate everyone's help, if I every get over I'll buy you all a drink (probably water mind )

As 40 yr olds, I think you're crazy to come here without a job. What about the health care costs? Not to mention feeding your family and good luck finding a place to live without income or registering without a job contract.

I just sent you a personal message through Toytown.

Don't let people put you off!

ps. I'm 41, but 40 is the new 20

Glad someone pointed this out. There are very few of us on this board who speak fluent German and who have to use German on a daily basis. Granted, my technical skills got me into this company, but I am not a ITler and although I make a good living, I still can't afford a car and holiday and a new pair of shoes every month. (So I opted out of having a car).


Your oldest ist 9, at 10, they start separating the kids into the different school paths in Germany. Your son will surely pick up the language quickly, but I can almost guarantee you he will be put on the Hauptschule track (or Realschule, if you're lucky) because he will show deficiency in German, which is a requirement. I doubt he will qualify for Gymnasium even after a few years unless he is a prodigy of some sort. Not being pessimistic, but I know an American family whose son had the same problem. He had one year at a German school, speaks without an accent, but the teachers recommended him for Hauptschule citing his language deficiency. They have now transferred him to an American school (they are military), which is sad. Their youngest was accepted to gymnasium, but she had been in German school system for 3 years.

I don't know that this is true (but if he goes to Hauptschule he will be sunk for life). Granted it was 40 yrs ago - when I spent a year in Munich with my parents I went into a Munich Gymnasium (I came from a UK grammar school but wasn't a high flyer). I was put into a class with kids 2 years older than myself which caused other issues. I was able to flatten them in maths, physics etc but their language experience far outweighed mine (& hence I didn't lean much).

My son has just completed Gymnasium (he was born here) - at least one child came "sideways" into the class from the Eastern block & did well.

I'm sorry to say that I'm one of the sceptics. It will not be easy (understatement) - employment, housing, schooling, navigating the bureaucratic hurdles in every aspect of life without a basic knowledge of the language etc. This country is full of red tape and even setting up a bank account is many times more complicated as compared to the UK, not to mention registration, taxes, pensions, health insurance etc.

You mentioned that your husband has been approached several times by headhunters... would it not seem a more reasonable step to move somewhere else within the UK where the problems you mention are not so pervasive?

I have been here five years, am in employment, have a son in kindergarden (bi-lingual English/German nonetheless), can speak the language at a conversational level and have a lovely circle of friends, but really want to relocate back to England and will try to do so asap.

All the best with whatever path you decide to take.

that's why my American friends pulled their son out of the German system. He was smart in every other way, but his German lacked. they said he could do a year of Hauptschule, prove himself, then be moved to Realschule, but they gave no guarantees. Realschule with Fachabi is a good alternative. Off to Fachhochschule at the end, finish studying by 23 or 24. Not a bad way to go!

The only thing I can really add to this discussion is a suggestion that you try and find solutions for some issues, such as to the red tape Hams mentions. You are learning German, but you need a good deal of German to be able to fill out the forms to get a telephone at home, nevermind talking to potential schools about registering your children, getting permits to work for yourself, etc etc.

Another issue. Do you know people here already? Are you planning on settling near them? It's going to be awfully lonely at first if you don't have some sort of support. I think that's likely to be the main difference between living and holidays, other than the obvious stuff. On holidays, you can just have fun with your family, but when you are here permanently, you ALL need other friends. Are you going to find those friends in the form of expats? Because although that's the easiest, it won't do much to helping you intergrate or learn German.

Good luck with it, although I personally have to just shrug my shoulders at the whole idea, since I've done the exact opposite of you with our family.

I used to come over to Munich on business and stayed for up to 3 weeks at a time with the wife in tow after she was made redundant. We too felt Munich to be a lovely place for family, etc..
I came over here at first alone, to start my new job about a month after our son was born. I had lot's of help from friends/company/colleagues/TTs etc. and REALLY needed it.
Due to the circumstance, I think you are brave to come over without a strong support network as we found it tough but made clear goals.
- I have to agree, as a family you will learn slowly.
- While support is not required the other option is to use those who offer relocation assistance (at a price).

Maybe a suggestion is to send your bloke over first to get some culture and life here under his belt (recommend after Oktoberfeast ). Hopefully if he finds a job it could allow him to sort better accommodation for you (and him), before you all come over. It also means you keep some stability back in blighty just in case he decides it's not for him.

Thinking about this more since my earler reply.

(1) Do the maths. That equity? Each 100k will buy you roughly 5k of income. If you have 500k, that'll be 25k to live on, say. Will that be enough for 4? Take stuff like moving costs into account (selling and buying property will take five figures off that equity).

(2) Someone early on referred to Germany being "very unforgiving" if things don't go right. There is a heck of a lot of intangible stuff like status wrapped up in things like having a good job etc. That doesn't matter to some of us but can be more meaningful to others - perhaps families and the circles they move in more than most?

Society in general here is some way away from regarding "downshifting" as cool - tends not to want to hear about people making their way off unearned income (unless its them individually natch which is of course why they don't like hearing about others) - is far less supportive of non-native speakers than the UK (ie. poor standard of the langauge is less likely to be overlooked etc).

(3) I think you referred to working in the public sector. As one with a (long ago) background there, I have qualifications in that field but it's hard to trade off them here. Public sector = not transferable (usually). The only person I know who made the move abroad (not Germany) got her job with a private company before.

They said they would live off the equity. Not live off the interest on the equity.

Hey I was born there

But back to the topic, are you fussy about the location? There is always the possibility that you could get a job with the US forces here & then the language wouldn't be a problem, there are still jobs going despite the drawdown & even though they are temporary, it would help out until you are able to find something better.

support networks and friends are nice and useful, but I wouldnt say they are essential. Friends for the kids would be nice of course

how about posting your experiences lazybum seeing as these threads are meant to be sources of knwoledge for others now and in future, rather than keeping it secret (or at least just send a PM without posting to say "I've sent you a PM")

why does it have to be the bloke? It's 2008 rather than 1908. Although maybe the attitude doesn't surprise me coming from someone who left his one month old child

Or do as my daughter is doing - she went to local Realschule, completed in June as top girl in her class & in September will move across to the Gymnasium (10th class) with goal of normal Abitur.

Frankly I felt she could have gone to Gymnasium from the start but I got outvoted...