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Canadian boy held in Guantanamo from the age of 16

Alleged human rights violations against Omar Khadr

Toytown Germany > Discussion forum > Themes > Miscellaneous
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Sanwald
QUOTE (Bell the cat @ Jul 18 2008, 12:43 pm) *
I have to keep reminding myself when I read this thread that there are plenty of Americans who clearly know what torture is and abhor it. It would be too easy to conclude from this thread alone that the US contributors had an inhuman and utterly amoral disregard for human dignity.

Hey Dude, take a step back, the moral ground you're on is no higher than anyone else's
Bell the cat
don't think I am necessarily on high ground. i hold the kind of views most people in the free world hold about torture. Just a bit astonished that there are people on this site that think torture is a good thing.
Sanwald
...but thinking that my regard for human rights and dignity is somehow lacking because I don't agree this guy was tortured is a bit arrogant and wrong. Look at this way, I would consider having objects stuck up my ass (animate or inanimate) an assault on my basic human rights and dignity, for others it's just another Saturday night.

Who's wrong?
Bipa
QUOTE (ryhntyntyn @ Jul 18 2008, 12:34 pm) *
That would be a whole lot of differences from the average child soldier I think. He's not just a child soldier unfortunatly. His individual, personal experiences, who he met, where he went, what he heard, and who he killed and when, mark him as not just rank and file point and shoot child infantry man. Which is probably why the US sent him to Guantanamo in the first place and probably why they are holding him, especially since they couldn't get his Father.

Hey, we're making progress here. You finally seem to be acknowledging that he was a child soldier. He certainly fits the UNICEF definition which explicitly states that a child soldier doesn't have to be just rank and file point and shoot child infantry. Given your tremendous military background, you know that not every soldier is in the infantry, regardless of whether in a standing national army or irregular militia group. So why would you assume that every child soldier must be in the infantry? Even girls used as cooks and prostitutes can fall into the category, but not Omar? As for being raised by an arrogant prick, or even being one, that isn't an indictable offence, or else most 15 year olds, and even many folks here on TT would be already sitting behind bars, waiting 5 years just to hear what they've been charged with, and hoping for a fair trial sometime in the next 6 or 7 years. tongue.gif Ah... but we also already agree that the 15 year old boy was treated horribly and unjustly, so we're slowly finding common ground.

I do wonder why he wasn't placed into Camp Iguana with the other juveniles that were detained (and later released). At Camp Iguana the children had the opportunity to learn, play games, speak with child psychologists and social workers, and start their rehabilitation right away. Instead, Omar was kept with the adults and given none of the services usually associated with juvenile detention. He has spent a very long time in solitary confinement.

But what is truly interesting is the new evidence that only now is starting to become public. The US government released some information to journalists by accident that seems to question whether Omar really did throw that grenade. Could be that the kid has never killed anyone in his life, and was just a member of the back-room brigade.

Was Omar Khadr coerced?
QUOTE (National Post @ Fri Mar 14 2008)
The likelihood the United States subjected Omar Khadr to harsh interrogations some would call torture increased Thursday after it emerged one of his early interrogators had been court-martialled for abusing prisoners and had also been involved in an interrogation of a detainee who died.

Legal arguments before the U.S. war crimes commission in Guantanamo Bay indicated Sgt. Joshua Claus of military intelligence participated in many, maybe all, of the interrogations of the Canadian terror suspect after U.S. forces delivered him to the Bagram detention centre in Afghanistan in July 2002.

A U.S. army investigation into the deaths of two other Bagram detainees in late 2002 describes a litany of coercive techniques he allegedly used to interrogate one of the men.

The disclosure came on a day Mr. Khadr's defence lawyers also highlighted a critical change made to a senior commander's report of the firefight in which the Canadian is accused of killing a U.S. soldier in a grenade attack.

Speaking afterward with reporters, Mr. Khadr's military lawyer, navy Lt.-Cmdr. Bill Kuebler, charged the change helped what he called the U.S. government's "manufactured" theory about what happened the day of Mr. Khadr's capture.

The author of the combat report, identified as Lt.-Col. "W," initially wrote July 28, 2002, that another U.S. operative subsequently killed the fighter who "engaged" the deceased U.S. soldier, Lt.-Cmdr. Kuebler told the commission.

About two months later, a new report -- bearing the same July date -- emerged saying the fighter had not been killed.

This is significant, because a separate confidential combat report inadvertently released to journalists last month revealed for the first time that a second fighter had been present alongside Khadr at the time the grenade was thrown. That fighter, who was killed, could be the person Col. "W" refers to in his first draft.

It is a very plausible theory. Omar could have been hiding behind the wall with an adult, who threw the grenade. The US soldiers targetted the thrower, shot and killed him, and injured Omar in the process. Makes me wonder, though, why it has taken so long to find out that there was a second fighter still alive after the bombardment of the air strike.
Bell the cat
QUOTE (Sanwald @ Jul 18 2008, 2:01 pm) *
...but thinking that my regard for human rights and dignity is somehow lacking because I don't agree this guy was tortured is a bit arrogant and wrong.

er, no it isn't. This child's dignity was certainly compromised and his human rights were violated but you seem to think that was a fundamentally good thing. If you are going to hold views like that be prepared to have them challenged FFS.
Sanwald
You missed the second half of my post which illustrates that perspective has a lot to do with the acceptability of situations. His rights were not violated and he wasn't tortured. Believing something does not make it true.

We both believe that torture is wrong and a degredation of human rights, we just disagree on what constitutes torture.
don_riina
QUOTE
This child's dignity was certainly compromised and his human rights were violated

Why the fuck should anybody respect the human "rights" of somebody who has a completely different definition of what human rights are? The entire of the middle east should be nuked. Be good for the world in the log run. Bush should do it now - everyone hates him anyway, he might as well use the power whilst he can and become a martyr...
Bell the cat
QUOTE (Sanwald @ Jul 18 2008, 2:40 pm) *
You missed the second half of my post which illustrates that perspective has a lot to do with the acceptability of situations. His rights were not violated and he wasn't tortured. Believing something does not make it true.

I could say the same thing back at you. Fortunately the UN treaties outlawing torture are far more specific and clearly proscribe such treatment. Do you seriously think a US penitentiary could treat civilian prisoners in that way in this day and age in the USA? If not, why not? Because there are funadamental rights that the US and most democratic countries are supposed to respect even for detained prisoners. And these rights are manifestly NOT upheld in Guantanamo and other terror detention centres managed by the USA.
Bell the cat
QUOTE (don_riina @ Jul 18 2008, 3:57 pm) *
Why the fuck should anybody respect the human "rights" of somebody who has a completely different definition of what human rights are?

because the WHOLE FUCKING POINT of human rights is that they apply to EVERY human. Jeez!
don_riina
No, that's arse. The point of "Human rights" is to make people feel better and fluffy about themselves. How the fuck can you apply some stupid love thy neighbour lets all join Amnesty international lefty bollocks concept to somebody that your armed forces were shooting at 5 minutes beforehand? Madman. War is ace.
nick60599
well said that man.
Bell the cat
we are signatories to the Geneva Convention that was framed quiite specifically to dictate the rights of people that our "armed forces were shooting at 5 minutes beforehand"
don_riina
They ain't though. For us to live by one set of harsh rules, and them to ignore them, would be like playing snooker against somebody who's rules are "I always begin with a 149 point head start.". Silly boy.
TexMunich
QUOTE (Bell the cat @ Jul 18 2008, 5:29 pm) *
we are signatories to the Geneva Convention that was framed quiite specifically to dictate the rights of people that our "armed forces were shooting at 5 minutes beforehand"

Not correct. The Geneva Convention does not apply to everyone that is shot at. You may wish it so, but that does not make it so.

The Geneva Convention started with the intent to make war civilized in the treatment of soldiers, civilians, and POWs. Could you please post where "Terrorists" are signatories to the Geneva Conventions.
ryhntyntyn
QUOTE (Bipa @ Jul 18 2008, 3:05 pm) *
Hey, we're making progress here. You finally seem to be acknowledging that he was a child soldier. He certainly fits the UNICEF definition which explicitly states that a child soldier doesn't have to be just rank and file point and shoot child infantry. Given your tremendous military background, you know that not every soldier is in the infantry, regardless of whether in a standing national army or irregular militia group. So why would you assume that every child soldier must be in the infantry? Even girls used as cooks and prostitutes can fall into the category, but not Omar? As for being raised by an arrogant prick, or even being one, that isn't an indictable offence, or else most 15 year olds, and even many folks here on TT would be already sitting behind bars, waiting 5 years just to hear what they've been charged with, and hoping for a fair trial sometime in the next 6 or 7 years. Ah... but we also already agree that the 15 year old boy was treated horribly and unjustly, so we're slowly finding common ground.

I do wonder why he wasn't placed into Camp Iguana with the other juveniles that were detained (and later released). At Camp Iguana the children had the opportunity to learn, play games, speak with child psychologists and social workers, and start their rehabilitation right away. Instead, Omar was kept with the adults and given none of the services usually associated with juvenile detention. He has spent a very long time in solitary confinement.

But what is truly interesting is the new evidence that only now is starting to become public. The US government released some information to journalists by accident that seems to question whether Omar really did throw that grenade. Could be that the kid has never killed anyone in his life, and was just a member of the back-room brigade.

Was Omar Khadr coerced?

It is a very plausible theory. Omar could have been hiding behind the wall with an adult, who threw the grenade. The US soldiers targetted the thrower, shot and killed him, and injured Omar in the process. Makes me wonder, though, why it has taken so long to find out that there was a second fighter still alive after the bombardment of the air strike.

As far as common ground goes, I don't see much. I think Guantanamo was a shit idea. And that military tribunals are a bad idea. And that everyone, everywhere deserves a fair trial, from a civilian court, with with due process, no classified evidence, from a legitimate court with jurisdiction over those in question in the place where the alleged crime was committed. For Omar, that might mean Afghanistan. I don't think you want that.

I think the young man stands accused of something, and needs a fair trial to determine if he should go free or not. If that's what you think good on you, but it has nothing to do with me. I wouldn't share common ground with you under an umbrella in a hailstorm.

I do not agree that the standard child-soldier mantle applies here. It is an awful case, and tragic, but it is one that needs to be judged on its own merits.

QUOTE (Bell the cat @ Jul 18 2008, 5:29 pm) *
we are signatories to the Geneva Convention that was framed quiite specifically to dictate the rights of people that our "armed forces were shooting at 5 minutes beforehand"

Don't the Geneva conventions apply to soldiers , civilians and POW's of recognized nations that are at war, who are signatory to same? I wasn't under the impression that international terrorists were guaranteed those protections.
Bell the cat
shocking article on the BBC about a journalist who was detained and brutally tortured by the US army at Baghram. He never knew why he was detained though his treatment worsened after the New York Times posted an article highlighting his detention.
Pleb
QUOTE (nick60599 @ Jul 16 2008, 10:39 am) *
I wasn't caught in a war zone under suspicious circumstances.

Stop peddling these lies and perpetuating a myth that only serves the criminal US administration. It is not a war. Afghanistan was invaded by the US in order to secure both a valuable oil pipeline from the Caspian Sea and strategic position in the middle east. 911 is not the reason... simply the justification.

QUOTE (nick60599 @ Jul 16 2008, 11:01 am) *
These people aren't Teletubbies. They are, in the main, dangerous people who had wishes to kill and injure soldiers of my country and of other countries. Use of the most powerful techniques to get information out of them is perfectly justified.

These people are defending their homeland that was invaded by US. Decades of US interference and manipulation has created the group referred to as Al-Qaeda. When are you ignorant freaks going to realise that your (the US administration and the people of the US via ignorance and misinformation) actions are the root cause of these issues. Stop crying victim here...

QUOTE (nick60599 @ Jul 16 2008, 11:20 am) *
A typical wooly liberal contribution. Anything interesting to add?

Another typically blindfolded response. You are not a race horse, so take off the blinkers. Liberal and conservative are terms designed purely to divide and conquer.

QUOTE (nick60599 @ Jul 16 2008, 11:47 am) *
You admit that all of these side effects are caused by acute sleep deprivation but then want to trust the statement of someone who has been subjected to this?

Military intelligence would also cross-reference and analyse what information has been obtained to ascertain it's worth. Forces will not sent into action and firefights on the drop of a hat (except in the most urgent cases - information as to the whereabouts of bin Laden for example).

Would it really...? you have a lot of trust in the intelligence apparatus that has falsified and mislead the US population in the last 2 invasions of sovereign nations!

Get a clue! The amount of junk "you people" swallow from consecutive manipulative administrations is astounding. Can we actually expect anything from the US populace itself apart from submission to it's own corrupt system?
Bell the cat
Pleb, I cannot agree with your views on this at all. Afghanistan was fucked up by the British, Iranians and Russians LONG before the Americans ever got involved. And it was a client war between both Russia and America on Afghan soil that sent it spiralling into a chaos. It was the failure to resolve that chaos and restore an infrastructure that spawned the Taleban and groups that called themselves Al Qaeda. While the US motives might have been complex, for most people who know the region the invasion of Afghanistan to restore infrastructure and the rule of law was initially intended to do some good for a country historically wronged by history and the world community.

That this conflict is now going in the wrong direction is a measure both of the failure to commit sufficient troops to Afghanistan in the early years and the fact that foreign terrorist groups have refocussed away from Iraq and instead towards Afghanistan. Another client war is unfolding over southern Afghanistan and it is frankly idiotic to present it as some kind of freedom fighting by an oppressed Pashtun population. It is not.
don_riina
QUOTE
Pleb, I cannot agree with your views on this at all. Afghanistan was fucked up by the British, Iranians and Russians LONG before the Americans ever got involved.

Don't go confusing him with facts BtC.

Al Kayda were created by the evil capitalist Americans, and it was all funded by Microsoft.
Yeti
I blame Noddy.
bluedave
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Noddy gets it in the neck again.

What about that bastard Big Ears?

He's behind it all, I tell ya. ph34r.gif
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