"U-Bahn batterers" sentenced to long jail terms

Lots of people have lots of reasons to have a chip on their shoulder. The vast majority of them don't commit crimes, and there's no excuse for a crime of this nature regardless of one's lot in life.

Interestingly , if he had died , the proper charge should have been Körperverletzung mit todesfolge (G.B.H leading to death) , which does make it seem hard that they have been charged with attempted murder . On the other hand , both of these thugs have long criminal records , and the system has obviously failed them . Anyone who has seen the video would have been shocked and sickend , and would hopefully agree that a hard sentence is more than justified . These two have been given enough chances , and as for a child potentially growing up in bad circumstances , just what chance would he have with people like these for role models anyway ? People who hate the German system .

If anyone does think that the sentence is too hard , what would they consider to be fair for nearly beating an old man to death ?

Worth reading.

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/deutschland/artikel/657/185076/

http://www.welt.de/welt_print/article21973...-Schlaeger.html

I'm saying it as it is. The shitter your life is, the harder some kick out. Oh they didnt play football with his head, they kicked it. There has been a wee bit too much emotionaliseing of this case, which is basically one of körperveletzung, nothing more. Nothing less.


To death? Mmmmm. He was up and running pretty quickly. The video looks serious. But most beatings do. The sentence is too hard for the crime commited under German law, and worse is we all know it, but are prepared to follow the populistic view. I worry about a society which twists its laws to meet popular demands. Either take the law as it stands or change it with considerstion. All though have to be equal under it at all times, otherwise it is a mockery.

All who seems to accept a very debatably unfair twisting of the intent of these criminlas should seriously look at where this sort of thing ends. And I say that as a conservative hater of fluffy liberals.

That's now about 20 pints I owe to Gideon.

And the more you are likely to spend part or all of your life incarcerated. People can have an attitude or they can try to make the best of their lives (with the help of others). They have a choice, and if they choose wrong they will reap what they sow.

Mehmet out of Neuperlach has the same "choices" as Hans-Peter in Starnberg does he?

Like it or not, MT, not everyone has equal opportunities; however, education up through Abitur is free and university tuition is low here. There is no excuse to commit violence just because you are born lnto a less well-off family.

Of course, MT, even you'll have to admit the children of the Communist Nomenklatura were better off than most in the Soviet Union of yore. Things didn't get allocated as much on price there, but there were other ways they got allocated in a less-than-egalitarian manner.

At the end of the day , when two young people viciously attack an old man , i don´t really think that ttey can expect sympathy or leniancy , and if they were to get it , then our society has gone seriosly tits up . He may have been up and running quickly , but the fact remains that if someone is kicked in the head with the force that he was , the chances are that he could die . Would these two have attacked me so easily ? I´m 1.96 M , reasonable biuld , and relativly young .

I wouldn't bet on it ... guys like them have no scruples. Last year me and my little boy (5 at the time) were riding our bikes back home, along the S-Bahn path in Unterhaching. There was a group of youngsters hanging out just off the S-Bahn station (but too far away from the actual bahnhof for the security guards to be close). My boy rang the bell to give them the usual warning (as if to say "attention please, little person's coming). One of the guys turned round, stepped into our way and said to my son in a real aggressive way "Ich mach keinen Platz für euch Scheiß Deutsche" (I won't move for you f** Germans). Apart from the fact that my boy is half-English (which isn't the point) this was a rather scary experience. It was also the one time where I did not carry my mobile phone with me. My boy was shaking, so was I.

Learn the following by heart, "Tut mir leid, ich bin eine Scheiß-Ausländerin". Takes the wind out of their sails every time.

Perhaps it's just coincidence that I've had several unfortunate experiences recently, but it seems on the whole that people in Munich are becoming increasingly aggressive, especially on public transport. It's always been an issue, but it seems to have gotten worse. Does anyone else have that impression?

I guess it could just be because there are more people using public transport since petrol prices are up and the weather's been sketchy, but in any case it (the aggressiveness) has gotten so bad that I literally dread going into the station and boarding the U-bahn every day. And I'm no shrinking violet, so I can't imagine what it must be like for more timid people.

No

LMAO, you know what I find more funny. Some guy was sentenced to 11 years in prison. For what!?:
He stabbed (axed) his x-wife a couple of times, she didn't die, but pretty damn close, and it was pre-determined.
That's the funny part.
*laughs*

a good bull hide whip would show those ruffians what its like to beaten soundly ...just to show them what a REAL whoopen is

Of course. Despite the so called "communist" label, by the 30s at the latest a new ruling class had established itself.
I've said often enough that I am a not a fan of Stalinism or the societies created by it.


There is no excuse for the behaviour.
Although I think the attempted murder charge and trial was flawed, a signifcant custodial sentence was unavoidable for this very unpleasant crime, as I said from the start.

You remember a couple of years ago when Bavaria scored as the top state in Germany in the PISA tables?
It was whoop-whoop-whoop in the local tabloids.

Then came a new PISA study. It looked at the provision of education across Europe again but this time there were new perspectives introduced.
How good was the education offered to youngsters with migrant backgrounds?
How good was the education offered to youngsters with working class backgrounds?

Have a guess where Bayern landed: Right at the bottom.
Suddenly PISA wasn't an issue for the schwarz-braun Weiß-Blaue Heimat Zeitungen.

There are plent of migrant / working-class (and there is a huge overalap between the sets) youngsters who get a shitty deal out of the German education system who DON'T drunkenly attack a pensioner after a row in the U-Bahn. But that doesn't mean all is well in the system either.

There has to be some level of personal responsibility and the two perpetrators are now facing that.
But there are a whole range of contributory factors behind this incident.
Reducing it down simply to a "kriminelle Ausländer" issue that Germany can dispose of, is not going to make sure such attacks don't happen again in the future.

There has long been an issue with agressiveness on public transport in Munich.
English speakers have talked about it for years and it has only recently come into the German media as far as I can see.
The perpetrators usually being agressive hypocondiac patronising racist pensioners.

Despite the rabble rousing of the CSU, the police have said that public transport in Munich IS safe and the MVG can provide the statistics to prove it.

What you are expereincing GG is subjective.
That is not to say that that isn't an important issue, it is and it needs to be dealt with eg more uniformed security staff is one option.
But subjective fears alone shouldn't set an objective agenda imvho.

I grew up in Neuperlach. My friends that I am still/again in touch with did something with their lives, they may not have gone to university or to Gymnasium, but they have a good job now, and want to get their Abitur now and study (or already did). They are all 'foreigners', Serbian, Turkish, Slovenian, etc (saying 'foreigners' because they were born and grew up in Munich but don't have German citizenship). Even when you are from Neuperlach (which really isn't as bad as many people seem to make it out to be), you still have a choice.

@ Mariposa. I've got "Ausländer" friends who grew up in Neuperlach and went on to get decent jobs too.
Was just using it as quick (lazy) shorthand to indicate that chances in life aren't equal.

You get racism everywhere. It is a fact of life it probably does not affect the smart kids too much as they will be, once they are through Gymnasium, working/studying in international environments where such attitudes are not socially acceptible and generaly unusual. However for people not studying or working in such multikulti environments then racist attitudes can be a real problem even if they are relatively rare because they don't have the same options open to them.

I'm sorry.. that's a load of shit. People have every opportunity to do well in this country. You can grow up in a council flat and still get any education you want here without any money backing you. If you fall through the cracks here, it's your own damn fault. There are some people in society that have it tougher than others. When you're in such a situation here in Germany, frankly, you just have to suck it up and get on with it because the system that is in place cannot help you any further than it already it.

Mate, it was an objective study with no axe to grind.
When it comes to educational oppurtunities for kids with working class and / or migrant backgrounds: Bavaria is right at the bottom of the table.

I get the impression that the early streaming system here, where kids are streamed into the various different types of high schools at such an early age, makes it significantly harder for kids with disadvantages. I think this is one of the reasons that Germany as a whole did so badly on the PISA tests.

I know this thread is ooooold... but regarding aggressiveness on public transport in Munich: go to Düsseldorf. As a Munich girl, I found that people are totally aggressive there. It felt like being in a survival camp...

is this available online anywhere?

Yes it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MFqKQ1LEGM...feature=related
but it relates to what happened last year, not the recent incident.

Related topic: Another violent attack on the U-Bahn

Its wonderful to see a story come along that engenders such strong opinions. We do so enjoy being righteously indignant! Crime demonstrates how violent we are as a species, whether we are beating an old man or punishing young men.

A prison term for a violent crime is not violence directed at the person sentenced to it.

We? Go ahead and implicate yourself but don't speak for the rest of us Chachi.

A BAVARIAN court, let alone a federal or a European one makes it harder to deport "foreigners":

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/muenchen/846/317720/text/

The Stammtisch notions of "kick 'em out" aren't going to be easily realised.

What is the standard remission in Germany? What does a 12 year sentence mean in real terms?

12 years can mean 12 years if they don't show signs of guilt / remorse / reformed behaviour / political will whether to let to let famous convicts out etc.

Off the top of my head you can be up for parole after serving something like 50% of the sentence.

That's not entirely true. The problem is you get sorted out at 10 years old. Once you're in "Hauptschule" you're pretty much done.
I have an uncle who - until last year - teached at a Hauptschule. He lost all his ambition in the 40 years he did the job. His last two years were resignation.
Is it a coincidence that you have schools with 80-90% immigrant kids and schools with a handful at all? No it's not. Many immigrant kids fall through the grid between first and third grade (not enough backing by the parents with language and all that) and once in the fourth tier school you're somewhat screwed. I had pretty stupid kids in Gymnasium who adapted to the school and finished studying later. Tell me how many 'Hauptschüler' end up studying or even get an apprenticeship. My school had 3 turks, maybe 50 greeks, 50 poles, 50 koreans and a few hundred Germans. Then there was the school my Basketball club had its ground which had 70-80% of kids with SE European, Russian and Arab background.
It's naive to not see it. everybody knows it.

I pretty much blame the schoolsystem for the lack of integration. They should get rid of Hauptschulen. They should have Gymnasiums and Gesamtschulen, the four tier system with the last one being on a standard of "special ed" is wrong and selection is too early.

Selection at such an early age is insane. It's wrong at just about any level I can think of. For one thing, it probably descriminates against boys because girls tend to mature earlier.