"U-Bahn batterers" sentenced to long jail terms

Today the judge announced the verdict: 12 years for the older culprit, 8.5 years for the younger who was 17 at the time. They were done for attempted murder, the judge following the DA's evaluation of the situation.


The judge conceded that their "natural inhibitions" had been lowered due to the amount of alcohol consumed before the crime but their self-control had not been disabled. The defendants' lawyers had requested lower sentences for greivous bodily harm and will probably appeal.


Joachim Herrmann, Bavarian Home Secretary, states that the culprits must be deported after serving their time. "No one will understand if foreigners who have shown such brutality are allowed to remain in Germany", he spoon-fed the Bild readers.


See related topic Xenophobic reactions to U-Bahn attack

Given that decision it will be interesting to see how long the old guy who pushed the young girl in front of the train gets when he stands before a court

He has proven himself incapable of living in a big city, repatriate him back East! And no extenuating circumstances as he was not even slightly drunk at the time.

EDIT: I have just had the most interesting discussion with my co-worker. She is hopping mad that these guys will be locked up for twenty years at thousands of Euros cost to the tax payers, they should be deported immediately. I pointed out that if they were repatriated they would in all likelihood be set free within six months.

So she can choose between their being punished at our expense in Germany or their being regarded as martyrs in Turkey/Greece free of charge.

The look on her face was priceless.

Let's wait for the Berufung. Versuchten Mordes is a pretty heavy charge and obviously a political descision. As YL6 said this does rather set the stakes high for our dear old Rentner friend. What annoyed about this whole case is the victims insistance that "even Jesus Christ could not have forgiven the attackers". Jesus Christ was beaten up and crucified by Ausländer and still asked God to forgive.

Jesus asked God to forgive his torturers but never said anything about his own feelings.

As in "God fogive them for they know not what they do... but when I get down from this thing believe me I'm resurrecting and gonna open me a can of whoop ass?"

Yeah, like when he cleared the temple (@ app. 1:35min)

Where does your knowledge of the Turkish/Greek Judicial system come from? I guarantee you, if any of them were give the option they would stay here.

I said way back then, that I saw no other option but for significant custodial sentences for the crime and that has come to pass.

But I’m not particularly happy at the judge so closely following the wishes of the state prosecutor and conservative politicians and media.
A significant number of issues that could have / should have worked in the defendants’ favour were downplayed.

They were measurably intoxicated at the time which a grounds for leniency under German law.
But the state claimed that as they still had body motor skills they couldn’t have been intoxicated despite the blood tests – we’ll see how many drunk drivers get away with that excuse in the future.

The psychological tests on the defendants for the trial were carried out by the same doctor that leads a psychological institute where one of the
defendants was recently treated. As the defendant was discharged “sane�, he was hardly going to be now certified “insane� by effectively the same
doctor. Defending counsel complained that this psychological analysis was not neutral but their objection was struck down.

The duration of any communication from the victim to the defendants, the style of that communication was briefly touched on but I missed any
significant cross examination. I personally suspect that the victim provocatively “talked down� to the perpetrators and used xenophobic / racist comment.

The fact that the victim stood up and was able to conduct himself and was almost immediately able to give an interview to the police puts his
injuries into perspective. One of the leading doctors treating him said that his injuries would have sorted themselves out if he had stayed at home with some painkillers.

It was an awful attack and as I say, don’t see any alternative to a custodial sentence.
But whether it was attempted murder deserving that length of sentence, I’m not convinced.

Reading the comments column of the SZ has been not been pleasant the last few days.
The mods there have been pruning what I assume are downright racist and offensive posts every few minutes.

German conservatives calling for the perpetrators to suffer "Turkish prison conditions" is nothing short of hypocrisy.
What would their line be if a German teenager was in a Turkish prison accused of a serious crime?

We know the answer to your last question already, don't we children?

This whole thing is not a “race� or ethnic issue rather it is a social problem. Two “people� yes I say people, nearly killed another humanbeing. It is a disgrace for humanity as a whole, regardless of nationality. Maybe if we stop thinking about race of the crime such as: “this African or this Greek hit this German,� and start focusing on the main issue which is the crime at hand. I thought justice was color blind, but I guess I was mistaken. We are perhaps not ready for such a world because we prefer to look only at color to get our kicks.

Sofiama

if these lads were in Singapore, they would also be receiving 12-18 strokes of the rotan (cane) as well.

Do you want a country like UK where yob culture and knife crime are rampant in all the inner cities, or somewhere that is safe for all to go about their business

The sentances were spot on . At the end of the day , an old man was attacked by two youths , both of whom have obviosly failed to intrigate in to the German way of life . I was waiting with baited breath for the verdict , and hoping that it would be hard ( but knowing the german system , not expecting it to be. ) Alcohol excess never has been , and never will be an excuse . I only hope that at the end of their prison sentence , they will be deported (this has not yet been decided.) Thugs such as these have lost the right to live in a country where they do not fit in . Any one who defends these animals should stop and think for a moment how they would have reacted if their Grandfather had been nearly beaten to death . Would they have been so forgiving and leniant then?

I just saw the surveillance camera footage on TV. I think they deserve every bit of their sentence.

i don't believe in god and i think those that do are lacking somewhat in selfbelief and a spine.

read once that there were three bears that lived in a cottage in the woods and ate porridge. was in a BOOK so it must be true.....

You are a cnut of the first waters and i defy you to come up with anything sensible and original from your own thoughts!

I challenge you to come up with a suitable solution for juvenile unrest outside of a Police state?

Where should we deport the Germans who committ very unpleasant violent attacks to?
They obviously can't "integate" into society.

The deportation after the sentence is a red herring.
The German state more often than not loses in the courts when it tries to deport such individuals.

Bild Zeitug and Bild are playing to the gallery.
They might be able to lean on the courts in Munich, but less so in Strasbourg.

It is unfortunate that we can't deport German citizens who also carry out racist attacks (as this U-Bahn attack was reported to have been) but that doesn't mean the U-Bahn attackers should not be deported if it is legally possible (as a threat to public safety). I doubt that if a person had a conviction for (race-related) attempted murder in their home country that Germany would want to (nor should they) issue a residence permit for that individual, thus it is, as long as the law permits, reasonable to deport a noncitizen who commits this sort of a crime in Germany.

MT, I haven't been following the case lately, but yours is the first mention I am aware of with regards to the pensioner allegedly saying something racist. I note that you pointedly failed to mention that it has been reported that one of the attackers earlier on the day of the attack said he wanted to attack Germans. Unless there is a credible source to confirm that the victim actually said something racist, I am going to think that the claim of a racist statement on the part of the victim was made simply to blunt the racist nature of the assault, which anyhow is not mitigated by anything the victim said.

Also, MT, your statement that you could not see any other option than a custodial sentence for the attackers after reviewing the case is a bit hollow. They attacked him physically, so, yes, it's obvious that they deserve prison time, so to even consider it possible that they did not is ridiculous. As to the charge of attempted murder, I don't know what the criteria are for it in the Strafrecht so cannot say whether or not that was the appropriate charge.

For once we agree.

The sentence is 100% fair, and these two should most definitely be deported after they have served their time. In my opinion, any foreigner or person holding another citizenship who is convicted of a serious violent act should be sent back to where they came from.

Legally impossible within the 27 European Union countries though. The British Government got egg on its face last year because they wanted to deport an Italian (albeit one raised in the UK) who had been convicted of murder, but were then told it wasn't actually possible.

Lawrence killer wins bid to stay

I believe the citizen of an EU member state can be deported if they pose a threat to public safety. IMHO, if you have a conviction for attempted murder and had a motive of racial or ethnic hatred that should fit the bill. Also, one of the U-Bahn attackers is, AFAIK, a Turkish citizen.

At the end of the day , an old man was attacked by two youths , both of whom have obviosly failed to intrigate in to the German way of life... ??? What on earth does this have to do with integrating into German life? Are you implying, Humphs, that in any other way of life it would be OK to kick a person's head as a football? What country are you talking about? Hell's kitchen?

I am not sure where you get your information about the Greek and Turkish judicial system, cause anyone commiting battery in those countries are not set free after six months. If you commit any type of battery, you are arrested immediately and sit in jail and wait until you face the court. This can take from several weeks to many months.

With all respect do you really think that all Greeks and Turks are a group of people who cherish bunch of hoodlums as "martyrs"??? The real reason why some Greeks and Turks came to Germany as immigrant workers was because they were UNWANTED in their own countries. These immigrants are still "outsiders" in their own countries. On top of that, no country wants such hoodlums, not Turkey, not Greece, not Germany.

It's so much fun pulling her leg!

In actual fact , neither of these thugs are German citizens , despite the fact that the Turk was born here . He has the nationality of his parents . As for the Greeek , an E.U citizen can be deported if he is sentanced to more than five years imprisonment .

I'm surprised by the somewhat flippant comments on the thread and sympathy for the kids considering what the CCTV footage shows.

And on two parallel TT threads, one person is being castigated for even mentioning that perhaps people have been racist to him becasue he's black, whereas here a bit of "racist" talking down is deemed mitigating for the attack

Sometimes these things are exaggerated but that CCTV footage was quite horrific I thought

What i´m implyling is that both of these animals have a criminal record as long as your arm . Not only that , they shouted "sheiß Deutsche" . If that is what they think of a country and society which has given them a lot more chances than tbhey would get in their own land , then they have not really intrigated . They have no respect for German laws , German people or German way of life . They dont fit in here , and have lost the right to live here .

Asfor comments that the old man possibly provoked the attack , i´m sorry , but nothing that he possibly could have said deserved such a beating . He is a defenseless old man , and as i grew up , i was taught to respect my elders .

Back when the offence was comitted I also read a balanced report in the SZ, that even in the case of the Turkish citizen, deportation is not that simple as there are also EU-Turkey treaties.
The talk of deportation is simply the usual run of conservatve xenophobes playing to the gallery.

It did Koch no good.
It did Schmid no good.

Here's to hoping it does Beckstein no good and we can break the CSU in September.

------------------------

And while Munich is all in a froth about these criminals flipping the bird to scum "journalists", Siemens can go on slashing jobs relatively unnoticed...

Well this is how England has become, imagine, a few youths throwing stones at your apartment and you get arrested for chasing them off, and now face a 6-month jail sentence

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/226...with-plank.html

It's rather simplistic to call everyone who wants to see these violent criminals deported after they serve their sentences racist, but I guess that's all you have to fall back on. In case what I posted earlier was not clear, MT, my personal feeling is that any person who commits murder, attempted murder, child molestation, rape, and other serious violent crimes should be deported to the extent existing laws and treaties permit (and too bad they don't permit all of those who commit these heinous crimes to be deported).

Sounds to me, MT, like you're politicking on the matter yourself, and in true demogogic fashion as well. People find this crime and others like it offensive and they especially don't want serial criminal thugs around to commit additional violent offenses. Is that really so hard to understand? Is it really so hard for people to avoid committing racist attacks? The real racism, with regards to racist attacks lies with the perpetrator of these reprehensible attacks.

I do not consider my rant about sending the old guy back East flippant, I am pointing out the double standard. The old guy spent all of his life in Germany and committed a crime comparable to beating up a pensioner, i.e. pushed a teenage girl against a moving train. Does he respect the laws of his own country? No. Does Herrmann want to deport him? Of course not!

Helgoland is slowly falling apart, the natives hate the day-tourists, it's regularly cut off from the mainland by heavy storms and high seas - I say turn it into a place of banishment for all Germans who commit similar crimes. Five years of counting seagulls should make them realize just how good life can be. [/flippant]

I love this bit from that article: "He grabbed a section of wood from a broken-up sofa lying in his front garden". I can just picture the scene!

I also find it offensive that specific racists and xenophobes alongside your run of the mill conservatives used the horriffic attack on the pensioner to push their agenda. And no one easier to use as a whipping boy as so called Ausländer most of whom can't vote.
I'm a tough old bastard, "integrated", speak German and am "dahoam" here for a long time and even I felt personally attacked by "Septic" Schmid & Co.

The problem with racism indeed lies with those that are racist. That can include a state or society.
Calling the victim "schieß deutsche" as he lay on the ground getting kicked was racist / xenophobic and NOT acceptable.
But I think the issues of xenophobia / racism around the whole incident weren't closely investigated enough.

It is still objectively safe to use the U-Bahn and the subjective safety is getting better.

I wonder what you would say if a politician advocated the unconstitutional step of deporting all violent offenders regardless of nationality, i.e., including German citizens? Such a policy wouldn't be "racist" but it would be illegal.

I have no idea why a law-abiding non-German would feel attacked by a politician advocating the deportation (where legally possible) of violent criminals who don't have citizenship. The real issue is the crimes being committed- the only reason nationality comes into play is because a country must allow its citizens to live within its borders if they want to, regardless of how heinous a crime they commit.

The very politicians you criticize are, AFAIK, tough on crime in general, MT.

Being pedantic that's not racist as the 'deutsche' aren't a race, although the attack almost certainly was xenophobic and was certainly unacceptable. Like you say it's disgusting when racist and equally xenophobic politicians climb on their high horses and using an attack like this push their own blinkered agendas.

...dont worry about it. She never answered my question either...

from today's Süddeutsche Zeitung


I was pulling my co-worker's leg about them being sent to their "home" countries without any punishment at all. But: If the culprit agrees to his deportation he generally does not serve the complete sentence. So A., the Turk, can agree to voluntarily leave Germany without the option of returning and does not have to serve the rest of the jail term in Turkey, he arrives there as a free man.

...you "pointed out" to your co-worker. Seems a bit a different than pulling ones leg. You earlier stated that they would get get six months in their home country. Now you say they would not get the complete sentence. So what is it then. 6 months, 6 years???

German baiting does not seem to be your forte. Fact is, if they were imprisoned in Germany and repatriated they would not be jailed in their "home" country. Let's say they appeal and their sentences are reduced by half, they serve half of them and are then sent "home". Two years for almost killing a pensioner? Laughable.

Deporting criminal foreigners is not going to change the fact that the kids grew up in Germany and fell through various social cracks. I am not defending their crime, it's heinous. It's society's Pilate attitude towards criminal foreign youths that bugs me.

German baiting? Now you've gone off on another completely different tangent. I asked a simple question which you don't seem to be willing to answer. In summary, you've said they would spend 2 years in a jail in their home country. Your next post mentioned that they would spend half of what they got here. Now you've updated us with your knowledge and brought in a 2 year stretch instead. Make up your mind.

If they are deported they will serve about half of their sentence in Germany. If this sentence is reduced in the appeal by half A. could be out of jail and Germany in 2.5 years. No more jail in his "home" country.

Even more interesting, he has a daughter with a German woman. If he marries her (the woman, not the child) that could well constitute a right to permanent residency. Will the authorities put obstacles in their way if they apply for a marriage license?

According to his lawyer, however, A. is suicidal, he's fallen into a bottomless dark pit with no future etc. Boo-frigging-hoo. He brought this situation on himself, no one pushed him in.

Every cloud has a silver lining...

I wouldn't wish the youth these two had on anyone - no rules taught, no self-respect, no respect for others... still, that cannot be an excuse (otherwise I could use my youth as an excuse, too, to commit minor theft - wasn't the best, but not bad enough for big robbery ;-) ) and I am glad these two are punished for their attack on a helpless person. Hopefully they make use of their sentence, i.e. learn a profession, finish school, etc, and try to work on what little bit of future they have left. Now threatening to commit suicide just because A. doesn't want to face the consequences of his wrongdoing seems a very cowardly thing to do.

I blame the pensioner. I mean, just who did he think he was taking the u-bahn at that hour?

Suprised no-one here has commented on the fact that the charge they have been sentanced on is on rather thin ice. Hand on heart can anybody say these youths went out with the specific attempt to kill someone - beyond macho posturing on the telephone to some mate? This is sadly though bloody typical of the staatsanwalt here in Munich. And I know as my sister in law looks after youths who are going through the whole leagl grindstone. If you're not german, what ever you do never ever at the heat of the moment scream you'll kill someone. Apparently they take you seriously and lock you up in U-haft for it. Here they've taken it oone step further. A brutal attack is automaticly a murder attempt. Feading the summary by the judge its full of more suppersition than a Toytown thread. Legaly dodgy judgment, because they had to increase the charge to delivery the sentence politicaly and populisticly deemed necessary.

There are also a couple of points MT has bought up. Impartial medical repoting. Possible problem with jugendstraf recht and the future problem of abshiebung.

I think the German system should hold it's head in shame here. I thought they were meant to be independant.

I think they did. How stupid can a person be not to know that kicking someone in the head several times the way they did can easily kill someone? Did you see the surveillance video?

In another case where a German man of Ethiopian origin was almost beaten to death, the accused were acquitted for lack of evidence. There was DNA evidence pointing to the accused, but prosecution could not convince the court.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2610049,00.html

I can't find the quote right now but while going up the escalator L. seems to have said something to A. along the lines of "Let's get that jerk good and hard" and A. agreed. The DA enumerated this "joint intent" (Verabredung zum Mord) as another of the necessary requirements for a murder charge, the others being perfidiousness (Heimtücke) and exploiting the victim's unsuspiciousness (Arglosigkeit), i.e. attacking the victim from behind with no prior warning.

This is the legal background behind the charge.

Another question that will be dealt with in the appeal is not appyling the more lenient youth guidelines to A. who was 20 at the time and termed "Heranwachsender" (adolescent). Now I don't want to be catty but if someone thinks he's grown-up and responsible enough to father a child he should not be treated as an immature teenager. Cake, have, eat. Courts tend in general not to sentence criminals between 18 and 21 according to grown-up law if they see any maturity deficiencies. But damn it all, this kid had two years to mature after turning 18 and 18 years before that to grow up and did frigg all. Yeah, he had an abusive father but he disappeared from the scene years ago. He made the wrong choices and is facing the consequences, something he had never really had to do up to now. Wake up, A., and sniff the manure. It's of your own production.

I doubt they probably went out with the intention to kill someone but if you see the CCTV then I would have thought any normal person would have realised that if they kicked someone like that then the person may well die - I don't know the exact definition of "murder" though

Well that descrbes just about 50000 fights a year at least in Germany. The judge has his head up his arse if he thinks that constitutes attempted murder. He should get out more often and realise that if the legal system can not cope with such brutality without subjective and false charges, which will inevitably lead to successful chalanges in future, it needs a major overhaul.

Was it a brutal attack, possibly. But it's been overplayed alot. Was it attempted murder. No. Todschlag tops.

As for maturity and children. They do not necessarily go hand in hand. Again a sugjective descision. I am sure there are a few hot shot lawyers lining up some very solid appeals on this case. Politicaly the soundest thing is to deport them now. Of course that means another kid will grow up in shit conditions with a chip on their shoulder and the whole circle starts again.

I'm upset that justice couldnt be done without bending realities, lying and ignore critical factors, and ultimately conforming to they baying populist wish.