Family life in Munich vs. Berlin

Zdrastvyte y'all,

I live in Holland but have the possibility of coming to live in Munich, or going to Berlin. I was wondering whether any of you can pass on any info, rumours, libellous comments and what-not as to how these two cities compare in the practical aspects of city life: I mean, schools, transport, general attitude of the natives, etc.

I've been lurking for a few days on TT (great forum, well organised and with wonderfully opinionated contributors!) and I have seen the "Berlin vs. Munich" thread elsewhere on TT, but rather than nightlife, touristy things and such like I was wondering about... well, how the cities might compare for life with a family. FWIW, I'm British-Italian, my wife is Russian and we have three kids (8, 2 and 1 month).

Many thanks for any input!

Munich all the way!

The quality of life is awesome. It is a great place for having a family because:

- safer than Berlin.
- proximity to various touristy places, ski slopes etc. Great for family outings.
- economically doing much better than Berlin. The job situation in Berlin is much worse.
- We are here

Cheers!
xargy

totally agree!!

munich is def. the better choice to live!

I agree too. Since the wall came down Berlin is a cross between a building site and the Darkside...

Young people like it because it's cheap to live in and a real party city. Not the place for families, however...

Don't forget though, that opinions from this forum may be a teensie weensie bit biased...

YL6

Depends if you already have a job ! In general, if not start looking now, the job market in Germany in general is exceptionally bad, but most of us only have experience of Munich so cannot really give you a comparision. Hear, if you have a good job in Berlin with a good salary, can live very well in Berlin.

Munich is the most expensive city in Germany. Although I have been here a while now, so I must be enjoying it somewhat !

if you were young free and single, I might be tempted to say Berlin (I only said might, mind)
but you're not, so definitely the answer is Munich

Berlin sucks.
Unless you are a jobless actor.

I lived *as a single* in both cities. Compared to Berlin, Munich sucks. But compared to the rest of Bavaria,
Berlin sucks. Don't be fooled by the 'Toytown' flair of Munich. A lot of police work is done to make it look
so. They have much more criminality there than appears in the statistics. Both cities are very very
different if you compare job situation, finding an apartment, mentality (humour) etc.. Berliners are much
more easy going in certain things than Muenchners. Muenchners are socio-legasthenics. But that is my
opinion based on my experience.
Regarding schools, Munich wins. Public transport systems are equal. There are lots of Russians in Berlin,
but maybe more Italians in Munich. Contrary to what people in Germany say, Berlin has a lot of
green areas and parks and lots of water (lakes). It can compete with Munich there.

Eh?

What the hell is one of those? Do you need an operation and lots of rehabilitation to be one of those?

You obviously do not know many Baverian's ! Sorry, not all, but find most Baverian's to be completely snob'ish.

Also know a lot of people from Berlin, and most say if they had a job in Berlin they would stay. Generally, they are much nicer people !

i agree with this. if your young and open minded , then berlin is by far the better place. munich has alot of tradition , which is fine , but this also has the draw back of a very conservative atitude. "Toytown" after all!
they like to pretent that the big bad world is out to swallow up there way of life. as a student here i must say that this can be a little Orwellion the odd time. you know -perfect streets and no rubbish and not many that stand out.however this also has many many pluses. it's safe to go out at night ( if not a little boring!) and to raise a family in safety it would drown the fears of any mother.
you have a very interesting decision and i wish you all the best,
s

berlin is a metropolitan city like paris or london. you see multi-culti in munich, but i think it's mostly pasty.
munich is much safer than berlin (despite or because of the new world order).
berlin is cheaper.
if i were single - berlin.
family and higher quality of life - munich.

oh, i should add, i know 2 people who moved to berlin from munich. both had spent more than 5 years in munich and both were german, had relationships & family and they will never move back here. say bavarians are just too conservative.

Thanks for all the comments so far, keep'em coming!

Regarding Munich, Bavaria generally, I am a little apprehensive about its reputed social conservatism (mowing the lawn on Sundays, neighbours tending to the nosy, und so weiter), and also the cost of housing (we would be looking to a house with garden, but where? ...the organisation I work for has a place not far from Munich Hbf.)

As regards Berlin, I wonder about the fact that the branch office of "my" organisation in Berlin is quite a bit smaller than that in Munich (I'm a little wary of getting into too much of an introverted exat community), and, well, I suppose I do wonder about how my wife would get on there: many Russians, yes, but perhaps loads of ossies resentful of them, and others, too?

As to schools, in Berlin any one of the international schools would be paid for (could always go German of course), whereas in Munich I'd have to fork out for part of the fees if I didn't want the European School in (Neu)Perlach (...but MIS is down Starnberger way, and BIS seems rather too small and out in the stix...).

P.S. I might add that I would be in the fortunate position of having a relatively well-paid job, so job hunting would not be a worry...

People are confusing Bavaria and Munich.
Most Bavarians are anything but snobish - one city does not represent the entire state.
I would suggest also looking at the English-language site Ex-Berliner and you should visit both cities. One person's paradise is another's cage.
Good luck in your decision!
PS I think I know who you would be working for because I already work there. Pick Munich. Seriously.

@jeremy: You do not need an operation for that. I met lots of Munchners that were plain idiots.
Just look at how 'easy going' they are and you will see. Or make a sarcastic joke and see the
reaction. Berliners are not that difficult. But that is *my* experience and others may think
different.

@peepers: Maybe you can spend some days in both cities and check it for yourself?

Yes, there is a huge difference between Munich and the rest of Bavaria.

@Genau: Yep I agree based on my daily U Bahn experience most Müncheners are very far up their own arse. Country Bavarians are very nice tho.

You're certainly not allowed to mow lawns on Sundays and yes the neighbours are nosy especially if you live in a house. We have a house with garden - not that difficult to find. Many are semi detached though so the other half of the house will prob. contain nosy neighbours.

And the euro patentamt pays ridiculously massive salaries. Our neighbour works there and he has 2*Merc and enough to spare for his 3 kids and missus (and a pool in the garden). get on the gravy train

Aha, so you count plutocratic EPAers with pools and mercs and kids and missuses amongst your neighbours then ...in which part of Munich would that be?

Possibly, just a wee wee bit...but I can cope


Interesting, yes and thanks for the best wishes. If I could be greedy I'd try them both, but I ain't so terribly young anymore (40 ), and I guess that as the children grow older moving them between cities and schools gets more and more difficult. The more "obvious" choice for me would be Munich (more possibilities at work, close to the mountains, etc.) but...I do really worry about the conservatism, in petty ways. I have to say that in some social things I'm quite conservative myself, but...not mowing the lawn on Sunday? (to pick a symbolic example - urban legend or no, it somehow seems very believable in Munich!) Nosy neighbours? Snobbishness? I'm just a little afraid of coming to Toytown and then, after the novelty has worn off, straining at the proverbial leash to get away from it all and breath some liberalism (...reminds me of an article written some few years ago by an American journalist based in Germany who needed occasionally to go to Italy, to Rome to let off steam, and enjoy the double/triple rows of parking and other anarchic bits: "Roma therapy"). Having said this, living in Holland is probably quite good training for some aspects. (Don't be fooled by the liberal stereotype images, the Dutch are basically a very conservative crowd in many ways!)

Hearing things such as about elfenstar's acquaintances (Munich->Berlin with family, no regrets) makes me nervous!


I've been to Munich already for a period once of a week (work related), and a couple of weekends. Berlin just one weekend. No problems, mostly pleasant encounters with people. But then short visits to a place without having to interact "forcibly" with the locals and offices and bureacracy doesn't give you too much of an idea of how daily life would be like in the long run: any less-than-positive impressions and encounters can be laughed off and later forgotten. (My experiences in Holland are a case in point!)

Make sure you go to a berlin group web site. I am sure the people here a a little bias.

I'm not sure what all the fuss is about with respect to when you can or can't mow a lawn. Seems an odd criteria for picking a place to live.

I'm from Canada and have lived here since July. I live in an apartment block with what I would describe as friendly neighbours - I suppose if someone wanted to construe that as "nosy", it could be done. However, that kind of standoffishness would drift dangerously close to "snobbishness", which you also seem inclined to avoid. It goes both ways.

Personally, I find the sense of community here (and I don't even speak German) delightful. The locals have been warm and welcoming but not intrusive. People live in close proximity, and are very considerate of each other. The quality of life is excellent, and having lived in big cities like Toronto, another big impersonal city like Berlin holds no appeal for me. As for social conservatism, I think that the situation Holland at the moment would negate any concern about what it might be like here! I'm a very liberal-minded person, and nothing I've experienced so far has made me want to flee to warmer intellectual climes on weekends. Rome IS very nice, but traffic anarchy and latin disregard for rules has lost any romance it might once have had. It's really just a bloody nuisance.

Just my two cents worth.

@gills

Your two cents' worth is appreciated! But let me respond to a couple of things...

>I'm not sure what all the fuss is about with respect to when you can or can't mow a lawn. Seems an odd criteria for picking a place to live.

Well, (for me) it's the symbolism, the indication it might give as to what is/is not generally acceptable in a society, what that tells you about attitudes (...will the polizei turn up because my children are making too much noise in the garden on a Sunday?). I am basically British, English, and if a policeman were to drive up on a Sunday afternoon and tell an Englishman that it's verboten to mow the lawn, there would be a commotion. It's an attitude to liberty. Same sort of attitude leads on to some resistance to the idea, in the UK, of ID cards being introduced (but that's a whole other thread, I imagine!). Nothing awful per se about not mowing the lawn on Sunday, but then, why would you wish to prohibit it by law? A Dutch example of the same sort of (paternalistic) attitude is stipulating during which precise periods of the day you may or may not put the rubbish bins out on the roadside for collection. I understand the desire for some semblance of order, but why not leave more things to common sense; you can't possibly legislate (and enforce) all aspects of civility...

I want friendly neighbours (don't really see how that can be equated with nosyness). What I don't want is neighbours who take an inordinate interest in various aspects of my private life, just because I am an Auslaender and thus by definition liable to transgress various rules and regulations (this is taking a rather pessimistic view of neighbours, but then I've heard a number of stories from colleagues, both here in Holland and some living in Munich!).

> I think that the situation Holland at the moment would negate any concern about what it might be like here!

Ach, the headlines make it seem as though there's some national emergency. No doubting that there must be, have been "heighened awareness" in some (particularly immigrant) neighbourhoods, but in The Netherlands everyday life (for immigrants too) continues as before. It seems more dramatic than it really is (I mean, the effect on how people are living their daily lives). Don't worry, die Niederlaendische way continues!

>I'm a very liberal-minded person, and nothing I've experienced so far has made me want to flee to warmer intellectual climes on weekends. Rome IS very nice, but traffic anarchy and latin disregard for rules has lost any romance it might once have had. It's really just a bloody nuisance.

Well, I'm part Italian (my mother), but born and essentially bred a Brit, so I am aware of the differences between Italian, Mediterranean attitudes and more northern European attitudes. It's a shame, but it does seem as though you can't have it all: more Ordnung (i.e. Northern Europe, generally) means (in my experience, including here in Holland) a generally more rigid, inflexible attitude to all that does not fall strictly within the bounds of what you are used to, whereas more individual warmth and a generally relaxed attitude to life (i.e. Southern Europe, generally) means things don't always work as they should! It is an individual preference, of course, which one of these two tendencies you prefer, but it should also be remembered that some things do change: the provision of some services in Italy has improved immeasurably over the last few years, in some instances working far better than in moralistic Holland (detecting a bias creeping in here, perchance? ) where, by definition, all works as it should and cannot be bettered.

Hi Peepers. I guess the only response I can offer is based on my own experience... it's best not to dwell on stereotypes, just take people as they come. Yes, there might be a slightly different general ethos in different communities, but honestly, people are people all over the world. If your approach is open and non-judgemental, I think you'll find it easier to connect -- if you come at a situation focused on certain expectations, you're bound to find 'em. Don't sweat the small stuff -- and as far I'm concerned, when you can or can't mow your lawn or take out your garbage is small. That stuff isn't about personal liberty, it's about being considerate to neighbours.

As for your children, well, again, my personal experience. A 13 year old girl lives below me, seriously disabled, brain damaged by oxygen deprivation at birth. She screeches like a banshee when she's happy... noisy little creature. Everyone, I mean EVERYONE, in this apartment complex loves her -- they babysit, they take her for walks, they visit... she's noisy, but she is beloved. So I'm not buying the concerns about cops showing up at your door just because your children are playing...

In my opinion, you're thinking about this way too hard. Put away Mr. Negative and bring out Mr. Positive, as my dear mama would say...

Hello gills,
Thanks for your considered post (and to all other contributors...including your mama!). Well, yes, re-reading my posts in their entirety I can see how it might appear that I'm being just a tad heavy on the negativity here; I'm not such a party-pooper, honest!
Perhaps it's just old age catching up with me, that, and the subversive influence of Italian blood which, especially after fourteen+ years living in Holland (during the latter part of which I have seen - we all have - changes coming about in society, some flowing from 9/11 fever), has me champing at the bit when people try to tell me precisely what to do! Didn't mean to lay all this stuff neatly at the door of dear old Muenchen though (...I don't really care about mowing the lawn in Berlin in January, either ). Since I'm not alone, have a family to consider, and have the delight of being able to choose between two German cities full of character (and characters), Munich and Berlin, I'm trying to get as much input as possible before talking it all over with the missus and plumping for one or t'other.
<mischievous> If mowing the lawn is banned 24/7/52/365, Jan-Dec and all in-between, in both Berlin and Munich (how about Vienna? kidding, kidding...), so much the easier will be my decision...
Peepers

Jesus thats scary . Never thought I would read something like this on here.
My dad does work at the EPO, we do have a Merc and quite a big house with a swimming pool. The other car we have is a Volvo though, so I guess that my parents are not boomtown_rat's neighours.

Oh yeah to get back to the topic, pepper I would move to Munich if I were you. My mum lives in Berlin at the moment and it is a very interesting and exciting city, but for your children Munich is certainly one of the better places to grow up in. I have expirienced it myself, lived in Munich from when I was 14 and had a brilliant time and the European School isn't bad either, especially as your children could continue doing Dutch, or do Italian, if you wanted them to.

Dan

Grosshadern

with Britain being the exception in that it has the worst of all aspects!

well the point with the not mowing lawns on Sundays is to keep the noise down. It is pretty strange in a way although the peacefulness on Sundays is great

Actually peepers you could be better with Berlin. You sound a bit like the type of Brit who complains about ID cards and rules just for the sake of it and dress it up in some kind of liberal anti Big Brother - I won't take orders - reasoning. An opinion which you are of course quite welcome to. You're probably overdoing the conservatism thoughts, esp with Munich - but if you do like to kick up a fuss when people impose some sort of Ordnung on you then Berlin could be better - although I have no personal experience of living in Berlin

Did you get a sense of the general level of satisfaction with the ES? I hear that classes are large (30-35, large compared to MIS/BIS anyway, don't know about "regular" Bavarian schools). How about teaching, how did you find it in your year group, re competence, Ordnung in class ?


boomtown, appreciate your other points but please (not without meeting me) don't tar me with some kind UKIP-perpetual whinger brush: I strongly object to the scheme for ID cards *as currently proposed* in the UK (and various other rules and regulations that litter our lives) for various reasons (...for another thread perhaps, or another forum altogether). I most certainly have better things to do with my time and energies than object "for the sake of it". (Are there no rules, or attitudes that stick in your gullet? Seems as though life in Britain is not much to your liking, you must have your reasons...). But, you're right of course, life goes on. When I first asked my question I didn't mean to focus on petty rules (for petty they are) for the sake of it, but am trying to get a sense of how things stand in Munich. It's clear that there are a whole lotta people who are very happy living in Munich. Opinions on Munichois and Bavarians vary, but, as gills said, "people are people all over the world" and one simply needs to take them as they come, as individuals. I firmly believe in this approach, and try to put it into practice everyday. (Whether, or how much this is reciprocated by others though is one of the variables of living in different cultures, of course.)

I repeat, am just trying to get a feel for how people are finding life (emphasis on family aspects) in Munich (especially if people are able to compare impressions of M. and B.), not searching for a forum to tilt at windmills on. If the everyday character of life in Munich and Berlin (and that of the inhabitants of those two cities) is significantly different then I would be very interested to know. (I still have to find a Berlin forum that's as lively and informative as TT though. My wife has found some Russian language forums in Germany; one comment on Berlin: "Sodom and Gomorrah"!). Perhaps I should have asked more specific Qs, e.g. "Can anyone compare the European School to Munich International School?" or "Can anyone tell me if noisy lawnmowers, and children, may be let out on a Saturday morning beween 10 and 12 in Munich?"

I don't know where you got the information about the class size at the European School (ESM) from, but it is wrong. I have a brother and sister that go there and, for them, the maximum is about 25 people per class with an average class size of about 20. In my last year there (2003-2004), half my lessons were in a class with 3 to 8 other people.
The main difference of the ESM, compared to MIS and BIS is that they expect pupils to be bilingual from the 3rd year of secondary school onwards. Your children could, as an example, do Dutch and English (as working language) and get thaught in these two languages. The class size of the Dutch classes is very small, as there fewer Dutch speaking people, than English or French speaking people at ESM. They could also do English and German, or English and French, or Italian and German. As from 2nd year secondary, your children could for example do English, German, Italian. Basically the 1st langauge is the language section that your child will be assigned to and the second language the working language. As I said above, from 3rd year secondary the pupils get thaught in both languages
They can of course do more languages if they want to (3 are the minimum, 5 the maximum), but those will be thaught as forgein language, so no pre knowledge is required.
In primary school they are only thaught in one langauge, apart from the European lessons, which are normally art or music activities, and their 2nd language (their future working language).

This might sound quite complicated, but once you get there you'll be fine.

Here is a webpage with reviews of MIS, BIS and ESM.

If you have more questions PM or just ask on here and I'll try to help you out.

The European Schools website.

Dan

not really actually - actually yes - that I can't wash the car on Sundays!! But basically there isn't much that really annoys me although that could be because I just can't be bothered to get annoyed. I guess its a trade off, there my be a few thhings that are annoying but I think you need to consider the 'bigger picture'. And basically, as long as I have a job, somewhere to live and the family then the bigger picture says I'm pretty happy.

Maybe there just aren't so many annoying things compared to where I last was (Sweden) so perhaps its just relative.


I like Britain and love going there although I haven't lived there for about 10 years so maybe things have changed. I'd be quite happy living back there though too..I think. And its the slight lack of Ordnung that I like about Britain and makes it cosy. Although the pissed up agressivity in some UK towns these days is a bit annoying. However my point of view is that one of the main things that people like here is that things work well and that there is a degree of Ordning and its very safe for familes and people in general. However, people also often complain about the small things such as no disturbing people or shopping on Sundays and not crossing when the red man is showing at the ped. crossing. But...I think there is actually a correlation etween these two points which people don't aöways make - these small rules that people make silly are the foundations of what meakes Munich the relatively safe and well working city it is. Perhaps you can't have one without the other.


Actually both our neighbours have kids and they are regularly noisy on Sundays (more so in the summer) so I don't think you'll have the cops round telling you off.

...Good Lord, now he tells me!

well actually, now you've got me started.

You can't really wash the car at all 'in the street' as I'd like to (but thats the same all over Germany I think) - so you have to go to the petrol station where they have all the hoses etc. Stick in a few euros and you can wash away for a few minutes. However, these places are always closed on Sundays and bank holidays (when you'd like to wash the car). I don't know if automatic car washes are open on Sundays or not - perhaps not.

so why they sell car shampoo in Wal Mart I don't know

Bavaria has more public holidays

Yesssss!!

I totally agree with you Jawn. People here are a bit biased. Berlin is a nice place to live. Munich? Place full of 'Angeber'...like our text-book has said! Go Capital City!!!

With kids, I'd definitely prefer Munich; I'd feel better about them going about independently there around age 10-12 than I would in Berlin.

Then again, out here in Die Oberpfalz, "Minga" is a big, dangerous (but glamorous, cosmopolitan) city

I consider Bavaria to be the Texas of Germany (guns only for hunting, though and carrying over more good traits than bad, in general). Rural Bavarians are quite friendly - the Stammgaeste at my little town's Gasthaus seem to have adopted me as their surrogate granddaughter, and constantly tell me what beautiful "Hochdeutsch" (standard German) I speak. Then again, I probably speak better Hochdeutsch than several of the older men, who are practically Oberpfaelzisch mono-linguals.

I love the Oberpfalz waaaay more than I was first inclined to, coming off 6 years in Baltimore and DC (which I liked).

Mr Peepers,

I would bet that I am one of the few folks on this board who actually has children (3 of 'em) and is a permanent resident (7 years now). I can tell you everything you need to know about the laws, systems, idiosyncracies of Bavarians, etc. and generally how it is to live here in Munich with children.

Send me a PM and I'll pass along my contact info and answer your questions as objectively as I can.

@ami it might pay to send him a PM, that post is over a year old, I doubt hes still checking the thread as often as he was back then.

You know I didn't even notice the date... thanks for that

I lived with two kids in both Berlin and Munich. The only minus I see in Berlin is job situation, but this is so important that we have ended up moving to Munich.

I don't say what is better, I just tell you my experiences.

Kindergarten

True, not checking in as often, but still get alerted when there is a new post!

Many thanks for your offer ami58. The Berlin-Munich question has come down mainly to considerations regarding housing and schools (leaving aside the very different "feel" of the two cities). Houses are definitely cheaper in Berlin but, setting that aside too, the main worry I've had about Munich is schooling. As an employee of the EPO (European Patent Office) my kids would be packed off to the European School, of which there are, shall we say, varying opinions. In Berlin I would be much freer in my choice of (international) schools.

I've certainly also seriously considered "normal" German schools. I know that Bavarian schools have a very good reputation within Germany, but since our eldest would now be about 10 years old by the time we moved, I fear that his German would not be good enough in time for him to make it to a Gymnasium. I even wrote to all the Gymnasiums in Munich (and Berlin!) some months ago; whilst some talk of giving a child 6-12 months as a test period, it's clear that at the end of that max one year period they expect the child's German to be good enough to follow all lessons, without further allowance being made. The German system (as with the Dutch, I'm based in Holland now) whereby you're packed off to different types of school at the tender age of 11 unsettles me. (I myself would have fallen foul of such a system, whereas in the end I didn't do too badly, academically-speaking.)

Having said this ami58, if you have children around the 9-10-11 age range I would still be particularly interested in your experiences, and how you've lived the transition to secondary schooling!

Natalia,

Which area of Berlin did you live in? And now, in Munich? I suppose it also depends, of course, on how long you've been in Munich, but if you were offered the same job in Berlin that you have now in Munich, free to choose, where would you go (and why!)?

P.S. Ridiculous question, perhaps, but do you have a Russian connection? (My wife is Russian)

@peepers
Where do you live in Holland, just out of curiosity?
EDIT:Whoops! Just read your profile...

By the way, I agree with your earlier comment about the alleged ultra-liberalism of Dutch society...

Sorry, pressed the button too early

Yes I'm Russian

peepers, I'm really sorry, I have to go now, I wrote so longl reply, but it all disappeared . I'll write you tonight again in PM , ok?

I lived in Berlin for 4 years prior to moving to München. I am a New Yorker so take what I have to say with this in mind. München is boring as F$%&. After the initial few months of newness wear off, you will find yourself bored as hell after 9 in the evening. I like to take my kids out (4 and 7 years old) after 7 pm to eat. München is filled with half assed italian trattorias. 95% of the cooks in these would be laughed out of the klitchen down in italy. Other then italian eateries, the pickins are poor, horrible diversity. There is absolutely no Chaos in München and I find this bad. Children need some chaos. There are no freaks on the streets, no people expressing anything even remotely approaching creativity. München is far from multikulti in any real sense. Just rich snobby ignorant rude people. The only good thing is its nearness to the mountains. Real estate is ABSURD. A lot of money for shitty houses and apartments. Berlin is a real estate dream and international schools are there.

Believe it or not, Berlin is the future of continental europe, all of it. As soon s my wife and I get jobs back there, we are hauling ass out of münchen.

If you want your kids to grow up with a real sense of the world, Berlin is it. If you want your kids to grow up as snotty ignorant f$%§ heads, münchen all the way.

real sense menas being able to learn all about street crim,e drugs, auto theft, muggings and general dodginess. anyway your kids should be ion bed by 8pm. thats far healthier for them than watching drug adit punks in a street cafe

While most children in todays societies learn the consequences of their actions by examples from the boob tube, experienceing the disgusting existence of drug addicts in real-time and in 3D is a far better deterent. I grew up with that shit all my live in NYC and my parents where strong and pointed out to me that I had the choice to live like a pig or make something of myself. We have no TV in my house and never will.

Who said kids need to be in bed by 8 pm?

Whoever said it will have to talk to my 1 and 3 year olds who, whilst their 9 year old brother is fast asleep, are usually bouncing around with energy at a time when M and P's eyelids are ready to concede defeat...
But I do hear of these families (particularly northern European, e.g. Brit, Dutch; German?) where children are in bed by 8, 7.30. The southern European families I know of (e.g. Italian, Greek), or Brazilian, seem to have children up and running at all hours.

...Are there so many drug addicts hanging around at every Berlin street corner?