A warning about signing up with save.tv

Sorry, this is a long one...

So, found this cool site called save.tv which will record tv programmes for you so you can download later. Signed up for their 2 week free offer, and was pretty well satisfied.

2 weeks ended, and I did not do anything, as I had nothing that I wanted to record at the moment. After the 2 weeks, I got a mail saying thank you for subscribing to save.tv, then one saying that my payment failed. It turns out that their policy is that they automatically try to charge you 1 year at the end of the 2 week trial, unless you cancel during the 2 weeks. Luckily, I was smart enough to not give my correct bank details, so they could not charge me, because I did not want to have 1 year, but I did want to buy 3 months. Talked to the lady on the helpline, and she started talking about vertrag and gesetzt, and that I must pay for the year, and I just said, I dont want 1 year, I wont pay for 1 year, so she can either change it to 3 months, or I wont take it at all. "Gesetzt this, gesetzt that... we have your IP address, mahnung, blah blah", the usual German customer service...

So, if you want this service:
a. dont give your real address or bank info (they say its to check that you are not underage, but if that was the case, they would have known before the expiry that it was a bogus bank Konto).
b. cancel the service RIGHT after you sign up for the 2 weeks. You still get the two weeks, just dont get automatically charged for a year after it ends.

I know this is going to spawn a bunch of "you should have known better" blah blah, and Im sure that it says in the small print that they will do this. However, it is set up in this way on purpose to charge people for something they did not explicitly ask for, and that is just bad business, gesetzt or not. Given the woman knew her gesetzt articles so well, I am sure that this is something they get calls about often.

Ok, finished now...

From what I've seen, many if not most contracts in Germany automatically go into a paid subscription after the free trial ends. I recently saw an ad on TV for a phone provider which was making a big deal about how their contract DOESN'T automatically get extended. Wow!

In Canada, such signups and extensions are against the law. After the free trial has expired you don't have to do anything and it all just goes away. I wasn't used to the German way of doing business when I first got here, and almost got stuck myself for a year of Premier. I had cancelled within the proper time frame, then they sent me a letter which said that they were giving me the full Premier package for free for a month to see if I would change my mind. I figured I had cancelled, and didn't realise that this new "offer" also had to be cancelled. This all happened just as we were moving to a new place that didn't have cable TV. I only got out of it because I got a signed statement from my new landlord that I had moved and my apartment didn't have cable and couldn't get cable. That plus threatening them with legal action got them to back off.

I don't take free trials anymore. Aggravates a lot of telemarketers. I've had them tell me that all I have to do is put a little "x" on my calender to remind me to cancel. I always respond that if I wrote an "x" for every free trial I've been offered, then my calender would have them on almost every day. Whether magazines, newspapers, phone plans, TV channels, memberships, whatever... I just don't do any free trials unless I'm pretty certain that I want the service.

So not just this web site, but for all German contracts, beware that you pretty much have to always cancel a free trial in writing or you'll find yourself locked into a contract.

And no, I'm not saying "I told you so" since I was also quite surprised at the imo unethical German business practices I stumbled into. Germans take it for granted, that it is how contracts work. Germans I spoke to just shrugged their shoulders and told me to be more careful.

I appreciate this information is posted about this business practice as now we can beware be aware of this when comtemplating signing up for FREE trials. Thanks.

This is pretty much the norm with most free trials. And you will probably hear from them again. Just because you gave wrong bank details doesn't mean they'll just let you off. (It is just like not paying a bill.) Unless she told you that they are letting you off, but I doubt that as they are in the right, you are n the wrong. Unless of course this was fraud but as far as I know save.tv is a legit service.

To be honest, just because someone knows that it is the Gesetz (law) that you have to fulfill a contract you entered doesn't mean much (anyone should know this!). Possible that there are many people who fall into this 'trap', but I think most people know how these trials work in Germany (most people who have lived here for all of their lives, granted for someone who just moved here and isn't familiar with how things work it might not be as clear) and they either cancel the service right away or don't sign up in the first place (I generally avoid those free trials that automatically extend into a subscription because I don't want to have to deal with the hassle of then canceling it).

There are free services offering a similar idea. See Online personal video recorders.

It turns out that their policy is that they automatically try to charge you 1 year at the end of the 2 week trial, unless you cancel during the 2 weeks.
And this is clearly written in their terms of service which you signed.

Luckily, I was smart enough to not give my correct bank details
That's the same kind of "smart" which one normally associates checking the fuel level of a tank with a lit match. What you did was commit fraud. You accepted the services of a company and made a promise to pay for them with no intention of actually doing so.

I did not want to have 1 year, but I did want to buy 3 months.
That's not what was in the contract you voluntarily --- and with fraudulent intention -- accepted.

Talked to the lady on the helpline, and she started talking about vertrag and gesetzt, and that I must pay for the year
And she was correct.

and I just said, I dont want 1 year, I wont pay for 1 year, so she can either change it to 3 months, or I wont take it at all.
How well does that work for you when you go to the store to buy a box of Corn Flakes and demand they only sell you the two bowlfuls that you actually want to eat?

"Gesetzt this, gesetzt that... we have your IP address, mahnung, blah blah", the usual German customer service...
Welcome to Germany, a nation of laws. The law is on their side. I've written enough here about Mahnungen; the only loophole is the IP address, and even then they can get a court order which will show a correlation between that IP and you on a particular date and at a particular time. In Germany there only needs to be a correlation unless you can prove beyond a doubt that you weren't actually there. A receipt from an Antarctic cruise would be helpful, but you've already admitted to having signed up... fraudulently.

dont give your real address or bank info
Now you're advocating and inciting others to commit fraud, a completely separate criminal charge.

cancel the service RIGHT after you sign up for the 2 weeks.
Which is the option you had and failed to exercise.

I know this is going to spawn a bunch of "you should have known better"
Well, you accepted a contract and couldn't be bothered to learn the terms of it. It's available from their front page. While I have some sympathy for your lack of understanding of how things work here, you clearly demonstrated fraudulent intent. You failed to read a contract which you accepted.

I'm not playing any schtick here. Had you not called them already my advice might be a bit different but the only advice I can give you is to pay them the €60 now. If you don't your options are limited.

If you don't pay up within two weeks, you'll get a 1. Mahnung with a €5 charge tacked on. You can now pay them €65.
If you don't pay that within two weeks, you'll get a 2. Mahnung with an additional €10 charge tacked on. You can now pay them €75.
If you don't pay within another two weeks, you'll get a letter from a lawyer demanding payment. He will add around €85 for his services. You can now pay them €160.
If you don't pay the lawyer within two weeks, you'll get a big yellow letter from a court in a city other than that in which you live with a hearing date some 1-3 weeks in the future. This process has cost an additional €45 which, if you pay now to end, will only leave you out €205.
Should you be smart enough to get a lawyer, you'll shell out another €200 just for him to write a reply (and you'll still be on the hook for the €205).
Should you attend court on your own, you'll be crucified. You can't play the innocent "I didn't know" card. You can try and there's a 1:1000 chance a judge might be sympathetic to your plea, but the fact that you fraudulently signed up shows criminal intent. Making things worse are the "Gut" rating from PC Professionell and the "Testsieger" rating from Chip Online; major industry rags don't think save.tv is a scammer. You will be found guilty and ordered to pay the €205, plus court costs of around €250, plus their lawyers' costs of at least €200 for the court appearance and another few hundred in travel, paperwork, chargeables, etc. But I'm not done yet.

Having been found in a civil court to have committed fraud, your case may be referred to the State's Attorney for criminal prosecution.

Have you got the picture yet?

Pay the €60 and submit a written Kündigung. Consider the €60 a very cheap lesson for a very important subject: never accept a contract without reading and understanding it. That lesson cost me a fuckload more than €60 it's cost you. You'll be €60 poorer and thousands wiser and in future you won't make the same mistake.

Welcome to the world of personal responsibility.

woof.

The only flaw in an almost perfect post. The big yellow letter will in all probability be a court order, you can contest it without giving a reason, there is no hearing requiring your personal appearance. Then the lawyer/collecting agent will commence court procedures, see the civil court prodecure as posted.

You'll forgive me for abbreviating slightly. I didn't even mention all the fun with the Gerichtsvollzieher should he still not pay after losing in court, but when faced with criminal prosecution for fraud and potential jail time, a few hundred yo-yos' worth of stuff forcibly removed from a dwelling kind of loses its importance and immediacy.

woof.

Nor the possibility of having his salary garnished. A wide scope there.
*another mental note to self: Finish the court order/collecting wiki entry*

Hi Doggie,

Thanks for your post. I thought mine was long... ;-)

I hear what you are saying, and will likely pay the amount, because it is also my valuable time I will be wasting. But I dont think you got my point. I DID NOT know that I was buying a year, and did not want a year. Charging me for a year that I did not want is bad business.

They are intentionally trying to mislead here, hence the answer to "why do I have to put my bank konto" on their site with "we need to make sure you are not underage"... I have copied this from the site and attached below:

Es heißt doch "kostenlose Anmeldung" - warum werden meine Bankdaten abgefragt?

1. Jugendschutzmassnahme

Die Angabe der Kontodaten ist notwendiger Bestandteil des Jugendschutzsystems von Save.TV. Die Kontodaten sind ein Bestandteil des von der Freiwilligen Selbstkontrolle Multimedia (FSM) festgelegten notwendigen Altersschutzes.

2. Freischaltungsvoraussetzung

Sobald Ihr Gratistestzeitraum abgelaufen ist, wird Ihre Softwarelizenz automatisch verlängert, so dass Sie diese bequem und ohne Unterbrechung nutzen können. Der Lizenzbetrag wird von Ihrem Konto abgebucht.
Während des Testzeitraums wird Ihr Bankkonto nicht belastet, Sie können jederzeit kündigen!

Of course, you need to read somewhere else that it is one year that they are charging you for... The Jugend thing is obviously nonsense, as they only found out after the trial period was over that it was a bogus bank account number.

It is all set up to force you to read through the conditions, and try to 'catch up' those who dont. Sorry, but this is stupid, as I will never use their service again, nor will I recommend it to anyone else.

Do you really read all of the conditions on every website that you sign up to? Really? Amazon? Expedia? Hotmail? Facebook, LinkedIn, Xing, Yahoo, GMail, etc. etc. If so, I think you are in the minority and/or a lawyer.

I guess this is just accepted by Germans as fair business, and they will gladly use a service again that is not being up-front with what they are doing. I expect the following answer to the question for why your bank daten are being asked for: "After your Trial Period is over, you will automatically be charged for a 1 year contract (€60) unless you cancel before the end of the trial period, which you can do at any time". But better yet, call it a normal contract from the outset, and say that there is a 2 week 'Widerrufsrechts'.

Whether 'legally' right or wrong, I just think its stupid business in the internet/blog era, in Germany, or anywhere else for that matter...

meow

No prob. I had some free time this morning as I was waiting for a database install to complete.

I hear what you are saying, and will likely pay the amount
You'll either pay the 60 or more than the 60. I'm guessing you're a rational actor and will opt for the former.

Do you really read all of the conditions on every website that you sign up to?
If they're asking for my personal information for a chargeable service? Yes.

Amazon? Expedia? Hotmail? Facebook, LinkedIn, Xing, Yahoo, GMail,
Yes to all, dropped all but #8, kicked off #4 for the name "Bad Doggie". My real name is associated with a few rather public posts condemning Amazon, Hotmail and others for the abuses in their contracts from back before 2000. Not a lawyer but related to many and son of a US federal judge.

I guess this is just accepted by Germans as fair business
Not necessarily "fair" but not illegal. The terms and conditions are there. You have the disadvantage of not having lived here 10, 15 years ago when laws were much more restrictive and personal responsibility and vigilance much more important. The company was up-front in the German mindset and offers the cancel button right there on the damned sign-up page!

But better yet, call it a normal contract from the outset, and say that there is a 2 week 'Widerrufsrechts'.
You could try that one but again, you've already admitted to an attempt to defraud the company and provided false information in order to gain a benefit.

Good luck, and congratulations on getting such a low cost for an expensive lesson.

woof.

So, you gave them your real name? And then you called to complain from your own phone? What else you gave them? Your home address? your birthday?

No it's not. It's an excellent and legal business model if you want to make money for yourself, or your shareholders. Surely, that is the ultimate goal in every case...

A foole and his money is soone parted - J. Bridges (1587)

My preference:


T. Tusser, 1573

One can argue whether it is is good business practice, but it is there in black and white.

MT, having lived here for a while, would you want to go to court and risk both civil penalty and criminal prosecution based on an argument about the less-than-honest AGBs of the company and supposed reason for the handing over of the bank account number? Be honest.

woof.

I think the AGBs are clear and if I was the OP I would take take your canine advice and pay the €60.

I fail to see why Mrbobke thinks he should be treated any differently to anybody else around here - the AGBs are clear and simply, and if he did not understand them he should have gone to the trouble of getting somebody in to help him.
Just because you have not understood something does NOT mean that the rules will be applied differently, and to be honest, this sort of thing only gives "foreigners" living here a bad name.
Hand over the €60 and accept that your behaviour really pisses some of us off.