Strict regulations proposed for the English Garden

The good old liberalitas Bavariae, quoted by the bigheads in the Maximilianeum whenever they want to prove themselves jovial, affable and superior to the rest of Germany (Germany? The world!) is due for a jolt to her chaste solar plexus: New rules and regulations (German link) are to be installed regarding everyone’s favorite park (meaning not just the English Garden but Bavaria-wide), trespassers will indeed be prosecuted and fined. Thomas Köster, head of the English Garden, has demanded “a bit of Singapore� in the middle of Munich, effective 1 August 2008. Judith Steiner, spokesperson of the Bavarian Finance Ministry, has confirmed that “people with small children don’t dare go to the English Garden any more�, and that “things must change or the current anarchistic tendencies will destroy the park altogether�. If you now see Preißn with cool designer glasses building barricades to protect themselves against Maßkrug-wielding Bavarians in third-generation Lederhosen, take another think. They have identified the enemy, and we are it!

Problem numero uno, Köster claims, are those evil and aggressive dogs not kept on leashes, the ones who claim at least one life per year (ummm, got a link, mister?) by suddenly attacking innocent cyclists who then fall over and suffer fatal injuries. Not to mention the fecal waste, of course. Dogs' waste. Not sheep droppings, just the right size for toddler to pick up and suck on.


These cyclists, by the way, are the inconsiderate egotists who insist on cycling on paths reserved for pedestrians only. This, too, will be subject to scrutiny and fines.

Close on their heels but wetter are the daredevil Eisbach swimmers and surfers, three of whom drowned last year swimming in forbidden waters. Now hang on, two of them were drunk and fell into the creek fully clothed, Matthias in frigging February! Ramnik, it is true, did drown in spite of a sign – in German only – prohibiting bathing or swimming. A simple pictogram could help to prevent another such tragedy. The surfers, however, pose a much greater danger to themselves, says Köster, and – horrible dictu! – to the park administration who will be taken to task should any of these athletic, circumspect and safety conscious surfers suffer any injuries. Not that this has happened in the last several years, but you never know …

Another group, spanning all ages and classes, are revelers who gather to party and leave their garbage, empty bottles and other messes lying around for the park workers to clean up. Spontaneous alcoholic or other parties crashed out in the grass are to be taboo-ed as well.

Only one group, often named as the most offensive to a majority of tourists, will be spared: The nudists who flaunt their flesh right there in the middle of town. They, according to Köster, are under conservation protection.

I find tourists pretty offensive generally, and they should be banned from wandering aimlessly along cycle paths. At least by treading in dog shit they do their bit to clean it up.

Good post sarabyrd, it's a shame that common sense failed again, replaced as is traditional here by regulations.

A citizens' group, Unser Englischer Garten, is protesting against the new laws, and reports the results of an informal survey of 403 people which they conducted in the Englischer Garten as early as 2004. The results showed that the vast majority of those surveyed were in favour of things staying the way they are and that 92% were against the new restrictive laws.Unser Englischer Garten - site in German only. The group claimed that basically all the activities to be targeted by the law are covered by existing laws anyway (e.g. dog fouling, unleashed dogs which are a danger to others, mad cyclists) (press release in German) and called on Kurt Faltlhauser, Bavaria's Finance Minister and top dog of English Garden administration, to acknowledge the results of the survey and drop the law. The only people affected would be owners of well-behaved dogs, who would now be obliged to put their mutts on the leash the whole time.

The protest has now been taken up by the GAH - Gesellschaft für artgemäße Hundehaltung e.V.. Apparently the Ministry for the Environment and Mayor Ude are against any restriction on activities in the English Garden, which have been enforced by the more draconian Schlösser- und Seenverwaltung (administration department for parks/gardens/palaces/lakes). The GAH aims to put a full-page ad in the Süddeutsche and collect signatures for a protest petition. Couldn't find a link to the flyer about the protest but I can mail a PDF to anyone interested, rather than quote the whole text here and put people off.

Just a few clarifications:
1) The guys in the Maximilianeum = Bayerischer Landtag (bavarian parliament)
2) They only allowed the Bavarian Finance Ministry (which is the owner of several parks and castles, including the "Englische Garten") to formulate regulations for those parks and enforce them with fines. This is the new article (pdf).
3) With this law the Bavarian Finance Ministry now has the same rights as every german community always had - nothing more.
4) Until now the park administration just declared their intention to regulate dogs, surfers, ... They will establish regulations in munich in 2009.

The law itself seems fair to me. It´s the park regulations, you might want to protest, (whenever they get established). Good thing is: such regulations can be changed much easier than a law.

Bild: Dogs kill sheep

I will seriously encourage subversive action, such as picknicking on the small grassy area behind it, once Scogs' bench is set up with its plaque. But I will also insist that everyone packs up their garbage because it's a Scouts' hono(u)r kind of thing.
EDIT: @ FS - The guy mentioned dogs killing cyclists, not sheep. Sheep may be stupid herd animals but they do not cycle on the footpaths.

Sorry, but why is there a herd of sheep in the English Garden?

Oh, and what are they going to do about those nasty geese that poop all over the place?

Arent sheep much more likable than cyclists. They are cuddly, they are useful,... an even better reason for leashing dogs.


Ude is a hypocrit. Munich has a "Grünanlagensatzung" that basically regulates the same things. But as the English Garden doesnt belong to Munich, the rules dont apply. Sure, it´s easy to propagate liberty, as long as you are not responsible for the outcome.

EDIT @ruthie: they mow the lawn

Yes, but Munich doesn't bring in guards with the ability to impose fines to make sure the principles in its Grünanlagensatzung are obeyed.

Now, be honest: Would you rather cuddle with a sheep or a cyclist?

EDIT: @ Ruthie

Cull them, eventually.

They certainly have the right to do so. Are you sure they dont? Or have you just not yet been caught?


Hmm, difficult to decide:
(if I were welsh though...)

Yes, I'm sure, apart from brief periods a few years ago when park "rangers" did occasional spot checks on unleashed dogs on play lawns in Ostpark. Never transgressed myself, pockets stuffed full of plastic poop-scoop bags always made me look like Michelin Man. back atcha.

So is that leash thing for the northern part of the park too?

No mention of separate rules for north and south parts, so I assume yes.

Like public canings on the Monopteros? Now that would be a tourist attraction.


I like the original German text: "Die Nackerten", sagt Köster, "stehen in München unter Naturschutz." Makes them sound like an endangered species. Maybe they should put them in an enclosure and charge tourists a "viewing fee" to observe them in their natural habitat.

No, no, no! Their natural habitat is around Goethe/Schiller/Bayerstrasse and the fees that are charged are steep indeed.

where are these sheep?
Next time Bren and I are in town I can have some herding practice for free!

Are these special non-pooping sheep?

And the penalties for immorality are stiff?

If the English Garden is SUCH a burden for the State of Bavaria, they could give it to the City of Munich.
80% or so of the park's users are from the inner city anyway and I for one wouldn't miss the Weiß-Blau Verwaltungsschandfleck covering our park.

While I actively dislike too many rules and regulations, dogs pooping everywhere has become a nuisance.
Long gone are the days when you could just lay down in a lush green meadow.
Sometimes I wish the dog snatchers from Korea would ride with their bikes through the English Garden.

The Süddeutsche Zeitung very kindly took up my request for background information on the killer dogs. "One to two fatal encounters", as the Abendzeitung was informed, turned to "at least one fatality per year due to incidents with dogs" while speaking to the SZ.


But: No documentation of the same. The SZ dug its way through ten years of archived papers - nothing. The KVR confirms the total lack of any reports, adding, "If there had been such an incident Köster must have ditched the victim in a shallow grave behind the bushes". Even the police could not confirm any fatal incidents involving dogs, not only in the English Garden but in all of Munich.

It seems that Köster, a nice guy in person by the way, is haunted by canine phantoms and wants to conquer them by putting their realistic counterparts on leashes.


source: SZ e-paper 3-7-08

When I read the original article I'd assumed it meant dogs killing other dogs.

It's pretty clear that dogs don't kill humans in the English Garden.

Love the derisive tone of the comments there, sarabyrd! The SZ is following the City of Munich line, while according to the GAH the AZ and tz are firmly on the side of Köster. For the text of the GAH's call-to-action flyer (German only, content outlined in post further up), click on the Kampagne Englischer Garten link under the Aktuell wichtige Mitteilung headline on their home page.

EdBob, the original quotation from Köster (see sarabyrd's first post) referred to cyclists suffering fatal injuries as a result of being attacked by dogs. Cyclists are generally, though admittedly not always, people.

does anyone have a link to the new rules themselves (rather than an article describing them)?

Babies and toddlers may not exactly suck on turds but they sure walk through it and get it on their hands, clothes, everywhere. I only became aware of the size (ha, ha) of the problem upon becoming the mother of a roving offspring. It is a fact that dog cack is EVERYWHERE and you cannot let your toddler roam without constantly having to scan the horizon for piles of poo. And cleaning up the sticky, stinky, disgusting mess in public without disinfectant and water makes your day, I can tell you. I knew a girl at university who went blind at the age of 7 as a result of getting dog poo on her hands and worm eggs causing blindness (Doesn't sound very scientific I know but I don't remember more than that). Dog poo is not just a minor inconvenience it can be a real health hazard and I sincerely wish dog owners would clean up after their pets. Rant...

the English gardens are big enough to have areas where dogs are allowed off the lead and others where they are not. Also the problem with the dog shit is not only the fact that the dogs are in the park but also that the owners are neglecting their duty pick up afterwards.

The dog owners I know always pick up after their dogs AND make sure they are de-wormed. Those who don't pick up after their dogs probably won't do so just because the dog is on a leash. A leash is not a poop-preventer.

It's not so much that the rules are new - except maybe the dogs-on-leash-without-exceptions thing - but that now the existing rules will be rigorously enforced as the Landtag has empowered the garden administration to patrol the grounds and issue fines.

Owain, an extract from the new regulations is quoted verbatim at the end of the flyer.

It could also be referring to the dogs being run over by cyclists which I imagine is much more common. I've had a few incidences where an off-leash dog ran right in front of my bike forcing me to either throw myself off the bike or run over the dog. Thankfully, I haven't hurt myself or any dogs yet.

Bikes and off-leash dogs don't mix, I'm all for having segregated areas where dogs can run around but they shouldn't be near any bike paths.

I'm sure dog owners would agree with you wholeheartedly - but at the last dog meet-up in the northern part of the English Gardens, we had left the pedestrian and bike path and headed along a grass path through a field, hoping to get the dogs out of the way of the cyclists, when an entire family on bikes came up behind us and rang their bells imperiously for us to get out of their way. And were impatient when we and the dogs didn't leap to their command immediately.
Rant over.

Or children's play areas.
Larger dogs may be cute to many, but if you're very wee, a large dog appears to have King Kong proportions. Can be pretty scary and a dog owner going "er will nur spielen" doesn't really help a freaked out kiddy.
But it's not only in Munich where the anti-dog/anti-child debate rages, it's also in Sydney.

There are also areas in the Englischer Garten (like in the Nymphenburger Schlossgarten) where game live, so having leash enforcement in those areas is wise.
Shame that the laws are needed at all - a bit more common sense and consideration all round would be better, but sadly...

It's a matter of courtesy, if the path is designated to be shared by pedestrians (with or without dogs) and cyclists, then we all have to learn to share. No group of pedestrians or cyclists should be taking up the whole path. As long as you left enough room for the cyclists to ride by safely in single file they had no right to moan but I've also encountered on these shared paths where a group will take over the entire path making it impossible for anyone to get by which can be pretty annoying.

Nope, Köster described incidents where dogs suddenly jumped up on cyclists who then fell off their bikes and sustained fatal injuries.

Not just off-leash. Have you ever heard Scogs' story about cycling home one (beery) evening and encountering a fair-sized Doberman at Münchner Freiheit? It was on an extendable leash and suddenly ran across the bike path to sniff at a car or do some other doggy kind of thing. Scogs and the mountainbiker behind him both ran into the leash, Scogs went arse over teakettle, the other biker fell on him. A couple on bikes coming towards them veered right (scraping the side of a brand new Mercedes) and left (careening into a café table). Everyone was picking themselves up carefully and backing away from the dog when they realized that it was stone-dead - choked by its own collar. The cops happened to be around and asked the bikers if anyone was hurt. Not at all, says Scogs, blood running down his forearms and eager to get away before being breathalized. They then told the hysterical dog owner to remove her pet and asked for her liability insurance to cover the damages.

Hence the mnemonic rhyme: Dogs on leashes are endangered species!

The solution to that would have been not having the dog on an extendable leash within the city. If the owner had kept the dog close, it could have been avoided.

Granted I inhabit the northern part of the park, but the poo nuisance up this way comes from sheep, not dogs. Now, I can live with the sheep and their shit as they are rather picturesque, but there's SO much sheep shit that it negates any complaints about dog droppings. It's miniscule in comparison. What's more, those "picturesque" sheep create a tick problem of monumental proportions. If the public can put up with that from the sheep, then they can put up with dogs off leash.

I despise leash laws. I brag to friends back home about how enlightened Munich is about that. Now it's back to the bad old days... of ignoring them (sigh).

gills, do you let your dog off leash near sheep? Because I'm a bit shocked if you do.

For the record, I don't want to step in sheep shit anymore than I want to step in dog shit.

I do not consider "well the sheep/geese/panda bears do it" as an excuse not to pick up after your dog.

If your dog is well trained and doesn't run out in front of bikes or after children EVER then by all means let your dog off the leash but for every one dog that never misbehaves there are 10 who do and it's those 10 that are a danger to themselves and others that make laws like this necessary. I have a good friend with just such a dog (sweet as he is and as much as I love him), I can't count the number of times that dog has put himself and others in danger.

Larger dogs can also be a problem for small dogs, especially ones who are older, going blind and don't have the best hearing (not that I have anyone one dog in mind ). My dog has been scared shitless on numerous occasions by some over-excited Lab/Retriever/Shepard dog who thought my dog was a puppy, ran full-speed at my dog and proceeded to "play" with her by flipping her on her back and pinning her down. And what do the owners do? Stand where ever it's convenient for them and yell "Schatzi, Hier" about 20 times. Schatzi, of course, doesn't give a flying fuck what owner says because Schatzi's having too much fun "playing" with my dog, who is now screaming in fear. Meanwhile, I have to bend down (putting my face near an excited dog's face, which will result in a bite one of these days) and scoop up my dog so that she doesn't get injured. This has happened numerous times and NEVER, not once, have the owners of these crazy dogs done anything to assist me or even apologize. There are also certain places in certain parks she will not walk in because it either was a place she was attacked or looks like it. We have had to change our walking places and times to ensure her safety.

When I first got here, I was very hesitant to let her off leash. After seeing all the dogs here off-leash, I decided to give it a try. Now, having seen so many "near misses" in various situations, where both dogs and people could get hurt or killed, I am back to the "on the leash, unless well away from every one/thing" philosophy.

Aber er will nur spielen, Cookie, don't you know that?

so let me get this straight - if I remember correctly, there are plenty of posts on this site saying that Bavaria and Munich are great because there is a bit more order than there is in your average British city, and now everyone is moaning about the imposition of some order...

You are certainly no country girl. I´d say there is a big difference between the dung of overfed carnivores and grass feeding sheep. Of course both dont look good on the soles of your Manolo Blahniks.

Or your stout hiking boots.

Nope. My policy is not to let her off leash around sheep, horses, busy bike paths, city streets, at night anywhere, and around kids because she's just too enthusiastic in her adoration. That's just common sense, because she's a newby in training. I do let her off leash in the meadows and on the walking paths where bikes are not supposed to be allowed - but where they go anyway. I have no problem with that, as long as they're going slow and are being careful of dogs and pedestrians. I will continue to let her off leash in safe areas, laws or no laws - she's a high-energy dog who needs to work off steam, who needs to socialize and play with other dogs, and who needs to learn to be reliable off leash. My last dog and I managed very well roaming city streets and parks without a leash for years in downtown Toronto and Vancouver. Turbo will get there, one day. The thing with leashes, if the dog is on one end then I'm on the other. I don't like being on a leash. And dogs need to learn to be reliable off leash, just like a kid needs to learn to cross a street by itself.

I'd like the city to hand out tickets for "failure to exercise common sense". That would solve ALL the problems, and no one group would be singled out for that! :-)

you gotta be kidding me. Sheep shit is disgusting. Every bit as disgusting as dog shit!

Some day dog owners who use extendable leashes will realise that that is all they do, they extend the leash, not your brain power, not your common sense and not your magic invisible "my dog and I own this" zone.

way to much goose and duck poo by the lake my wife was there one day and i really went off when i saw the conditions of the area.
dogs as such should be banned from most areas of the park and only allowed in an enclosed dog run area to controll the dog poo as most city owners dont care that children use the same grass.
dogs in the city anyway are for brain deprived individuals dogs are for the farm and country not the city and toy dogs are for kicking in contests.
cats are useless except to keep rats down in a barn yard they stink.
so i am amazed at the nudists with the BLING BLING..i mean i have been to burning man a few times and the amount of chrome on some people amazes me the only thing missing was some spinning discs on the tits and penises i saw blazing in the sun.
strange they are going to regulate the surfers they city uses them on their tourism web site and on brouchers.

Yeah, husband, and keep the damned kids out of the park too. Those strollers are a nuisance and take up too much space on the walkways, and the noise children make is disruptive to everyone's peace and quiet. If they have to be allowed in, then keep them in enclosed play areas where won't get in anyone's way, and everybody will be satisfied. I know! Just close the whole park. Period.

A big dog can take out an adults leg, gotta be super careful near kids. There should really be leash laws for alot of the English garden. Shit is a problem too; I don't mind a dog shitting in the bush, that'll only affect idiot tourists collecting bärlauch - seriously, in the English Garden? idiots. My mate was once visiting and took a wee in the bushes near the Chinese Tower. Came legging it out of the bushes, because there were loads of people in there..collectin bärlauch.


Anyone with a dog on a silly leash like that is a twat. Full stop. No control over dog, but don't want their poor doggy not being able to sniff, and wander where it wants. Unreal.


Or for people travelling into the city via a few fields and woods, so they took their dog with them for the walk.

Why would you be shocked? Dogs can be by other loose animals- just depends on the dog. Especially herding dogs usually can be. My dog is off leash by sheep and other animals just fine. If told he ignores them if told he'll go and get them or whatever.


FYI- dogs are omnivores, not carnivores. also, most shouldn't be overfed.


extendible leashes are horrible! they shouldn't be used. Owners have a false sense of security and on top of it doesn't help with walking on a loose leash since the dog has to pull to get more leash. Some people can make them work and be safe and well-mannered (dog and human), but those cases are few and far between so it's better to not risk it and just don't use it.